Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

Fabio Skoda

2) The pink colouration is almost certainly from a Kastle-Meyer test which is a presumptive test for blood. The test works like this: an area is sprayed with phenolphthalin, then with hydrogen peroxide. If blood is present, the phenolphthalin immediately oxidises to phenolphthalein, which is pink in colour. So an immediate pink colouration after applying the H2O2 over the phenolphthalin indicates the presence of blood.

3) HOWEVER, phenolphthalin + H2O2 will automatically oxidise due to the oxygen in the air within around 30 seconds, giving the same pink colouration even in the absence of any blood on the surface being tested.

4) Therefore, if the Kastle-Meyer test is positive for blood, any photos used as evidence must be taken within seconds of the H2O2 being applied to the surface being tested (which has previously been sprayed with phenolphthalin).

5) But...the sheer physical size of the cumulative areas in the photo shows conclusively that the pink colouration in the photo simply cannot be due solely to the presence of blood. For that to have been the case, the entire small bathroom would have had to have been sprayed down with H2O2 more-or-less simultaneously (perhaps by the use of some sort of large industrial sprayer), with the photo being taken within around 10 seconds of that happening.

6) This obviously didn't happen. In fact, it's more than likely that the bathroom was tested surface-by-surface using hand-held sprayers.

7) The inescapable conclusion, therefore, is that the photo of the small bathroom was taken long after each of the treated surfaces had reacted to the oxygen in the air, which oxidised the phenolphthalin to the pink phenolphthalein within 30 seconds.

LondonJohn,

From a Kastle-Meyer procedure: "A positive reaction is indicated by the development of a pink colour within 5 seconds. Reactions occurring after 5 seconds, or before the addition of the hydrogen peroxide are inconclusive. A pink colour after phenolphthalein has been applied but before hydrogen peroxide has been applied normally indicates a false positive due to an oxidising agent being present. Rust could cause a false reading of this type." Therefore, they would have had to have been really fast with that sprayer.

 

[theRealBob]

Btw, where is Chris C. ? I think he first bought up the stomach content issue but didn't have it all thought out completely.

On the whole people who bring up stomach content issues usually think about it on a deeper level than guilters trying to rationalise reasons for a pro-guilt theory.

We'd all like to see someone from the dark side, for once, just put something together that sounded like a valid list of 'circumstantial reasons for guilt.'
It goes without saying that this excludes their previously mentioned lists of 'circumstatial reasons for guilt.'
Entirely.
There are very obvious booby traps that should be avoided like saying that it's really easy and obvious to see that the affluent students had some cryptic reason for removing Meredith's mobile phones from the crime scene and getting rid of them, when they could just switch them off.
It seems simple to say that the murdering burglar who lacks a mobile at the moment, got scared about walking around the streets at night with a stolen laptop after what he'd just done, but had a little period of thinking that snatching mobiles was safe before dumping them.
Or the recently posted, guilt-laden mutual switching off their mobile phones which is strangely enough just the type of thing a newly-created couple are likely to do on a quiet night.

What would be far more conclusive than a 'MILDLY BELIEVABLE AND CORRECTLY ORGANISED LIST OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE'
.............................FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME IS...

someone (Mignini obviously excluded for simple reasons )to propose a remotely believable scenario of the night they spent TOGETHER...
How did these three disparate defendants join each other and build towards the night's obvious results and fall apart in mutual non-blamable locked silence for years afterwards. Don't they bargain for sentence reductions in these things, and it's PMF's quiet (and very nice) friend Rudy that I'm thinking of here.

There are the remains of the physical evidence from the night's events that we can obviously see, which is the bloody murder that TJFMW tells us simple poster folk was proved without doubt could only have been committed by more than one person, while the Messei report stated that the court (and prosecution) experts said the assault showed no particular signs of being committed by more than one person.
Yes, I know that outside the physical results we also circuitously debate it's investigational aftermath (plus there's also those slapstick bogus details the cops left us with like the hilariously fake cleanup,and fake 'fake burglary' )

Someone should come up with something that could be imagined and believed.
A what could have happened.
How could Raff stay silent (after this unbelevable three person scenario) about Rudy ?
How could disco-dancing victim tenderer, passive sex-Romeo and toilet hugger, Rudy not swap a year or two for dobbing in Amanda's boyfriend (who logically on That Night, would settle an agument between Meredith and Amanda, while Rudy's just hanging around.)
Let's have a guilter tell us a believable story about the period of the night, when these three got together for the murder we were left with.
And how they did. How could these events unfold ?

It begins with Meredith's stomach contents literally revealing a TOD around the 9:20 time Rudy knew that he had to tell the cops about anyway, and did.

And there's also those other times which Mignini's 'Force' found could include Raff, because his computer activity meant he wasn't at home..(but ends up being the TOD we have to begin the surreal NON-EXISTANT ACCOUNT OF THE NIGHT we got left with)

It would be nice to see a brave guilter spin a believable story around it. Strangely enough most of the people on JREF would drop everything and simply try to work things out to a logical and unbiased conclusion if a believable scenariio could possibly be presented..

Which is impossible, without a doubt.

I am constantly amazed that people actually respond to Pilot Padron's 'things he types up'. Unlike everyone else I avoid both post-things and responses.
I know that noone replies to mine.............

 

[Justinian2]

Agatha just said she is surprised that I think Knox and Sollecito are innocent. Of course I've explained, as above. The post mortem evidence makes it clear that Meredith died not long after 9 pm. Rudy's estimated time of death (9.20 I believe, and he should know) seems consistent with the findings. It's just ridiculous to imagine she spent a couple of hours relaxing on her bed in a cold house, playing with her phone but not phoning her mother, and all that pizza was still in her stomach.
So that throws the Massei verdict down the toilet. Show me a plausible, properly-worked-through scenario in which Knox and Sollecito kill her at that time, and I'm listening. So far as I can see though, nobody has tried.

Rolfe.

Good point!

It appears that the prosecution team is comprised only of idiots and bigots that knew Amanda was guilty because they had a gut feeling that she was.

Of course we know that Amanda never had sex with Guede and that neither she nor Raffaele called Guede. There is no indication that Amanda ever talked with Guede, other than acknowledging an introduction ("Hello, Hi"). The necessary collusion was never established by even Guede who might have had something to gain by pushing that lie.

The prosecution would have us believe that Guede broke into the apartment to steal and rape MK when, coincidence of coincidences, Amanda and Raffaele entered, killed Meredith and left - all while he was in the bathroom.

Lionking is an example of a typical guilter, so let him be.

 

[JREF2010]

On the whole people who bring up stomach content issues usually think about it on a deeper level than guilters trying to rationalise reasons for a pro-guilt theory.

We'd all like to see someone from the dark side, for once, just put something together that sounded like a valid list of 'circumstantial reasons for guilt.'
It goes without saying that this excludes their previously mentioned lists of 'circumstatial reasons for guilt.'

Isnt that what Massei did in his report?

I'm not a guilter, but I dont think the case is a slam dunk win for the defense because of the C&V. I think the prosecution will attack like pitbulls to a child and still attack the two were involved "someway, somehow".

They might even have a surprise witness pop up from the dumpster, a crack-addict dealer who saw the two heading to Naras apartment, their scream waking him from his crack coma.

Seriously, I havent seen a thought out timeline post from the guilt side since the knife was thrown out.

 

[Dougm]

Isnt that what Massei did in his report?

I'm not a guilter, but I dont think the case is a slam dunk win for the defense because of the C&V. I think the prosecution will attack like pitbulls to a child and still attack the two were involved "someway, somehow".

They might even have a surprise witness pop up from the dumpster, a crack-addict dealer who saw the two heading to Naras apartment, their scream waking him from his crack coma.

Seriously, I havent seen a thought out timeline post from the guilt side since the knife was thrown out.

JREF --

I have been thinking about this possibility as well. The court of first instance basically made up the guilt narrative, ignoring any evidence or alternative scenarios from the defense. Could that happen again? Given that it is really the only alternative the prosecution has to get a conviction, I fully expect the "look at how they acted, look at how she lied, they must have been involved somehow" argument to rear it's ugly head. It worked once.

I will say I agree with those that say, so far, that this court and this judge seem much more logical and fact based in their decisions, but there is a lot we don't know.

I am surprised to see you say that you have not seen a thought out timeline post from a pro-guilt poster since the knife was thrown out, because I don't recall ever seening one. None that was not contradicted by known evidence anyway.

 

[GreyFox]

Just like to stop in and say hi to everyone. I have posted with some of you before and am glad to see you here. Like most of you I was a guilter who couldn't stop wondering why things dont add up. The picture of the (pink) bathroom was were I started on this ridiculous story. Of course the article called it blood and proclaimed Amanda took a shower in it. That really just didnt make sense. However without the crazy story I probably wouldn't have spent the time to learn about the case.
Thanks

 

[theRealBob]

Isnt that what Massei did in his report?

I'm not a guilter, but I dont think the case is a slam dunk win for the defense because of the C&V. I think the prosecution will attack like pitbulls to a child and still attack the two were involved "someway, somehow".

They might even have a surprise witness pop up from the dumpster, a crack-addict dealer who saw the two heading to Naras apartment, their scream waking him from his crack coma.

Seriously, I havent seen a thought out timeline post from the guilt side since the knife was thrown out.

It's possible to believe that Massei dreamt up his own theories about the stuff that was talked about in front of him in his court and wrote them down, which in light of the attention the case has attracted should be a very big mistake.

A more believable scenario is that he just went along with anything and everything that his mates wanted him to.
We know his 'mind' was certainly made up all along.

On a brighter note, whoops this case has very few brighter notes, to independent observors it's the exposure (which we've all seen before) of the rapacious cheating by the prosecution that is the turning point of the appeal stage rather than the evidence itself.
But you're right.
It's highly likely that the 'now-silent' Mignini could suddenly return draped in bat-wings and a cowl just as a newly-horned Commodi makes a mad last ditch at the mercy of the court, by charging forth and head-butting the bench while Hellman ignores typical court protocol and sweeps the most innocent in the room off to ............

No. I don't trust anything entirely (well, not at all really) but...

I believe Massei was quite prepared to advertise his stance

I believe Hellman does that too.

Seems to be what counts these days.

 

[misteratunta]

I've been seeing claims that even if she were released, the police may withhold her passport to prevent her leaving the country. Is there any truth in this? Are there any ground upon which they could do so?

 

[theRealBob]

I've been seeing claims that even if she were released, the police may withhold her passport to prevent her leaving the country. Is there any truth in this? Are there any ground upon which they could do so?

It's easy to believe that in this case, just when you thought your feet were on the ground you're standing above the flames from hell.

The prosecution are filth. No matter what goes on here they're making asses of themselves internationally and they'll only think about themselves

and those K people, a bit, sometimes, I guess

Nah. forget that............

 

[Dan O.]

Not, quite.

They had it for the Matteini Report.

Eeww, my eyes are burning

I have my own copy of the original report on my wiki hand transcribed and translated. This should be put in a more accessible place.


The Mattini Report was signed November 9th and concerns the court appearance which I believe was on the 7th. The line immediately preceding what you quoted talks about having to reconstruct the investigation from the beginning. My guess is that the boys from Rome arrived and asked "what have you got?" and they proceeded to tell the story in twelve part harmony with full orchestration and they stopped them right there and asked: "What time did you first arrive at the cottage?" Well, this was a stumper since nobody had bothered writing anything down so they went through everything they had to try and reconstruct the time.

There are hints that they had this erroneous reconstruction of the timeline before the interrogations on the 5th. It would be nice if we could solidify this.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Daily Mail photo

Just like to stop in and say hi to everyone. I have posted with some of you before and am glad to see you here. Like most of you I was a guilter who couldn't stop wondering why things dont add up. The picture of the (pink) bathroom was were I started on this ridiculous story. Of course the article called it blood and proclaimed Amanda took a shower in it. That really just didnt make sense. However without the crazy story I probably wouldn't have spent the time to learn about the case.
Thanks

GrexFox,

Did you see the photo in the Daily Mail article, or did you read the Vanity Fair article, where it is mentioned? Just curious.

 

[LondonJohn]

An interesting meta-thread which concerns this thread. Very interesting.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219295

 

[LivingonaPrayer]

GrexFox,

Did you see the photo in the Daily Mail article, or did you read the Vanity Fair article, where it is mentioned? Just curious.

Not sure about GreyFox, but I actually first saw it on a TV report

 

[LivingonaPrayer]

An interesting meta-thread which concerns this thread. Very interesting.

Thanks for this link. I am trying to figure the navigation of the site. Being blonde might take me awhile though

 

[LivingonaPrayer]

That's a pretty interesting thread, though. And the mods there are doing a good job keeping it civil.

I just read Fulcanelli (didn't realise he was Michael of the .net monologue but it figures) on the stomach contents issue. My God he is clueless. He parrots scientific papers without any understanding at all of what is being said. Meredith's pizza might still have been in her stomach after many hours if she'd been in a coma....



He's actually quoting a paper warning about the pitfalls, and cautioning against overinterpretation. He's completely failed to get it. In particular, he's failed to realise that the authors are talking about some of the last meal still being in the stomach. Not all of it, with none in the duodenum!

There's not much you can do with blind ignorance, I'm afraid.

Rolfe.

He truly does not GET it!!! Although I have not pulled my hair out there yet lol

 

[moije2]

In that I have been reflecting on the upcoming end of this drawn out appeal, I will share that I fully expect another media play by the prosecution. Any predictions what that will be? It seems like at every important juncture something has happened, eg the articles released by John Kercher, or more recently the letter to the prosecution by Meredith's sister. Or last minute evidentiary matters as well such as the 6 day gap in DNA testing etc. However, I am thinking about media stunts which appeal to emotion rather than facts. I will be surprised if something like this doesn't happen, and I wonder if the defense teams are sitting waiting for such as well. Hopefully they are ready for a quick come-back.

With regard to Steph's letter to the court, it sure was played by Maresco for his prosecution case, but (I guess I fantasize a little bit) isn't it possible, just possible that the Kerchers are saying hey wait a minute, you <told> us that the evidence was good, and now we are hearing it isn't so kosher? I would like to think that might be the case. As opposed to my negative fantasy anticipating a press conference with the entire Kercher family on the court house steps, pleading for justice and don't let them get away with it... In which case they are really being played by the prosecution and Maresco.

 

[Justinian2]

He truly does not GET it!!! Although I have not pulled my hair out there yet lol

Originally Posted by Rolfe
I'm a veterinary pathologist with training and experience in forensic pathology. I have often appeared in court as an expert witness in relation to my pathology findings, including having to address time of death.

If you're trying to debase Rolfe, then you must be a guilter. Guilters slam us as we slam the prosecution. That is the guilter MO.

If that's the best argument you have, then you've run out of ammunition. You're shooting blanks.

 

[Grinder]

pretty sure LOAP was agreeing with Rolfe and disagreeing with Michael

 

[LondonJohn]

If you're trying to debase Rolfe, then you must be a guilter. Guilters slam us as we slam the prosecution. That is the guilter MO.

If that's the best argument you have, then you've run out of ammunition. You're shooting blanks.

No, I think Livingonaprayer was referring to Fulcanelli (aka Michael) when she said "he doesn't get it". And anyhow, Rolfe is a she

Incidentally, Fulcanelli/Michael has now managed to clock up an impressive 250-odd posts on that forum in the space of 48 hours! I feel certain that stint7 will be on his case forthwith, eh pilot?! And Fulcamichael still appears to be ignorant of the sensitivity and specificity of the TMB presumptive test for blood (as well as the actual meaning of the term "presumptive"). I suggest he gains a little scientific knowledge before he embarrasses himself even further. The TMB test has a high sensitivity; this means that it has a very low proportion of false negatives. So if a TMB test comes back negative, that means there is almost certainly no blood present.

 

[katy_did]

Battistelli is simply a liar that says what he thinks the prosecution wants to hear. The 12:35 arrival time is what he testified to in court saying that he looked at his watch (reminiscence of toto). But has there been a contemporaneous report filed with that time written down or is he claiming to have remembered the time from 2 years earlier. It just so happens that 12:35 matches when the CCTV showed him arriving if you get the time adjustment wrong as we now know the prosecution did. Are we to believe it is just a coincidence that Battistelli's watch is off by exactly the same amount as the prosecution got the CCTV time wrong?


ETA: I archived all of Perugia Shock including user comments after it was shutdown by Google but it is in Safari web archive format which isn't easily accessible for other browsers. I didn't find anything there on Battistelli's claimed arrival time except in one of the user comments.

I'll have to take your word for it if you say you haven't found it on Perugia Shock; I'm pretty sure, though, that Frank does talk about Battistelli's initial report as one reason he may have stuck to his various dubious claims - perhaps it was in relation to entering the room, rather than the arrival time. At any rate, I'm glad someone has the posts archived; hopefully you or Frank himself will be able to make them available again at some point.

As Kaosium said, the first mention of the 12:35 arrival time seems to be in Matteini's report, and it's worth noting that there's no reference there to the CCTV footage at all (or not that I could see, though I should point out that I have the unsearchable pdf version!). So either Matteini is basing that 12:35 time on some kind of information from the postal police - e.g. their logged arrival time, or a report - or she's basing it on an estimated and altered CCTV arrival time, but without mentioning that. I tend to think the former is more likely simply because there must have been a report from the postal police, presumably shortly after the murder, and arrival time would be a basic piece of information to have on there.

Then there's Micheli's report: here's the key sentence from the part you quoted:

The Postal Police notation, signed by Inspector Battistelli, indicates the arrival time of the crew at 12:35, and according to the cameras of the Sant'Antonio parking lot, giving a 'rounded' time, the agents may have arrived even earlier.

L’annotazione della Polizia Postale, a firma dell’isp. BATTISTELLI, indica l’orario di arrivo dell’equipaggio alle 12:35, e stando alle telecamere del parcheggio Sant’Antonio, recanti un orario da arrotondare, forse gli agenti giunsero anche prima.

I'm not sure what's meant by a 'rounded' hour, perhaps it just means an approximate time (obviously we know it isn't actually 'rounded off' to the nearest 5 minutes or whatever). But the key point here is that Micheli clearly refers to two sources of information: Battistelli's written record that they arrived at 12:35, and then the camera footage which possibly even shows them arriving earlier than that.

So in both Matteini and Micheli's report, that unambiguous 12:35 arrival time is given. To me, the simplest explanation for that time would be that it came from the postal police report/log. It's possible of course that they scrabbled around after the fact trying to reconstruct what happened, but that seems quite convoluted when all they needed to do was estimate the time they arrived. I doubt Battistelli had any idea how important that time would turn out to be.