Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Jack by the hedge]

"A win by an unsound combination, however showy, fills me with artistic horror."

Relevance?

 

[twinstead]

Gotta hand it to you Patrick. The ability to debate an absolutely untenable position with irrelevant minutiae forever is a skill usually only politicians have.

What we have here is the internet forum equivalent of a filibuster. Bravo

 

[Kid Eager]

SUSpilot,



The moon's acknowledged "passive" use by US military personal over the years is certainly no secret. The navy employed "moon bouncing" signal transmission for ship to shore communication purposes as well as for communications between Annapolis Maryland and Hawaii. It was one of the first signal relay modalities developed to get around the "line of sight problem", or more appropriately, lack thereof.

how utterly comically wrong. That is a preposterous answer to a non-existent problem. HF communications was the long-standing solution to long distance radio communications.

 

[Kiwi9]

Occam's razor: If there are inconsistencies between the contemporaneous NASA documentation and some recollections written decades later by a couple of guys from Lick observatory, my working assumption will be that the side with the vast, detailed and internally consistent body of technical documentation is probably more reliable.

Exactly. That is one reason I particularly like the following book, which I was lucky enough to find for only NZ$4 back in 1996 at a Red Cross book sale:
"First on the Moon - A Voyage with Neil Armstrong, Michael Collins, Edwin E. Aldrin Jr", written with Gene Farmer and Dora Jane Hamblin, epilogue by Arthur C. Clark. Michael Joseph Ltd, London (1970) -- Hardcover

It has over 400 highly detailed pages with information from the transcripts, technical stories, and personal stories from many people, including the astronaut's wives. Being published in 1970, it is far enough from the Apollo mission for any inconsistencies or uncertainties to have been ironed out, and it uses transcripts that are more accurate than in some earlier books. Most of all, it is still close enough to the mission for any personal memories to be about as accurate as they could be.

Additionally, Gene Farmer was senior editor for Life, and Dora Jane Hamblin was staff writer for Life, so from a trusted organisation. They spent many months with the astronauts and their families.

I personally find Gene Shoemaker's story about the coordinates of Eagle which his team of geologists found, to be much more convincing than the recent stories by the Lick Astronomers and the stuff Patrick1000 makes up from them. Besides, Patrick1000 regularly indicates that he knows nothing at all about Occam's razor or logical fallacies, so often makes himself look foolish and doesn't even seem to know that he is doing it.

 

[abaddon]

how utterly comically wrong. That is a preposterous answer to a non-existent problem. HF communications was the long-standing solution to long distance radio communications.

Marconi made the first transatlantic radio transmision in 1901.

What is P1K's "line of sight" issue?

 

[Oji]

What is P1K's "line of sight" issue?

He can't see beyond the end of his nose (although that gets longer everyday).

 

[R.A.F.]

Having trouble answering my question, coward??

Explain to all of us why we should give you the "time of day", when you continually ignore questions that show you to be wrong.

 

[Patrick1000]

Whistles won't work in space.

NASA certainly dodged a bullet there then. One thing I don't understand though, how does NASA prevent Luna 16, Luna 17, Luna 18, Luna 19, Luna 20, Luna 21, Luna 22, Luna 23 and Luna 24 or any other space probe from photographing the non-landing site and blowing the hoax wide open?

Going back over the older questions, this is one of the more important ones. I have already answered it, and answered it clearly, though perhaps not as directly as some would like.

So, to be as direct and clear as possible, mercatormac, LUNA 16 through 24, or any other probe for that matter, may not know exactly where our "packages" lie, where our equipment is. We have a LRRR at 00 41' 15"(0.6875 degrees) north and 23 26' 00"(23.505 degrees) east, but we "hid the bird", presumably hid the main complement of our Apollo 11 package, our moon instrumenting equipment, so LUNAs may not be able to find our stuff so easily.

Also, the Ruskies were instrumenting the moon as well, have instrumented it. We both signed the no weapons on the moon treaty in 1967, so neither side has any incentive to blow the whistle.

There is no air in space and whistles don't work, won't work.

 

[Garrison]

There is no air in space and whistles don't work, won't work.

Sort of like your theories then?

 

[abaddon]

Relevance?

None....again.

 

[Patrick1000]

It all makes sense in the light of star phobia and laser fright

Pat? About the Russians taking a picture of where there were no astronauts... How would they be able to take a pic of them at all?

It all makes sense in the light of star phobia and laser fright.

Another very important question, previously answered very clearly, but perhaps not as directly as some would like. Let's do that here.

Redtail,

"star phobia" and "laser fright" are more about the astronauts not being forced to take someone else's picture than they are about avoiding pictures of the absentnauts.

Sure the absentnauts are absent. They are not at 00 41'15" north and 23 26' 00" east, and so bird hiding is in part about not exposing the absentnauts to the roving eye and camera of a space probe. The absence of the absentnauts at 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east on 07/21/69 at 03:00 UTC (EVA time) is proof of fraud. Remember, NASA would be afraid of a probe regardless of what kind of camera it is packing. It is the threat of being photographed, or more appropriately, not photographed, that is enough of a concern.

Also, keep in mind, the Russians have, in a very real sense, "won the space race". They started instrumenting the moon BEFORE we did. Their concern is more to see what we are doing, what we are parking up there. They know we don't have 2 men at 00 41' 15 " north and 23 26' 00" east. We have an LRRR and other "Apollo 11 stuff", perhaps in other places, perhaps all there.
So the absentnauts are exposed at 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east.

Photos of absentnauts, or more appropriately, lack thereof, at Tranquility Base on 07/21/1969, would be incriminating and proof of fraud, but it is not NASA's main fear, nor NASA's main motivation for intentionally losing their bird.

The main fear has to do more with the absentnauts being "forced" to take a picture of a laser. Well, more precisely, exposed for NOT taking a picture when they should be able to. If you shine an argon laser at commander Armstrong and it doesn't appear on his tv film as taken from the lunar surface or cislunar space, well then you have busted the commander for his Halloween antics. And indeed that holiday is coming up, so it is more than appropriate we cover this topic in our lead up to Patrick1000's hotly anticipated 10/31/2011, super surprise, H-bomb on NASA's head, post.

Also, as mentioned previously, friendlies can get the absentnauts in trouble with regard to their adolescent cislunar truancy as well. This is because if the absentnauts say, "yeah Hank, we see the McDonald Observatory argon laser!", but then, a week later, Hank realizes he "missed" the Columbia by 2 degrees and a ton of miles, and the absentnauts couldn't possibly have seen the argon laser from McDonald Observatory in El Paso, well then, Hank would then know the whole thing was fake. Hank might say to himself, "JEEEEEZ! WOW! maybe I should sell this info. for 5 cents or two nickels".

So the "fear of exposure", "star phobia" and "laser fright", has more to do with the fear of not being able to produce photos of lasers when they should, as opposed to being shown to be skipping space school and truant from the bogus cislunar lab, "Columbinot".

Finally, and to emphasize again, the Ruskies are doing reconnaissance here more or less. They could bust us, but that is not their intent. After all, they like to park antennae, LRRRs and what not on the moon too.

Finally, the fewer the pics out there the better, regardless of Ruskie motivation. Pics can leak, and the whole ditching space class charade can be exposed if one incriminating photograph floats free. So NASA has many reasons to hide the bird, limit photos, or lack thereof, of absentnauts, limit photos of equipment.

It's actually pretty cool I think. Can't wait to figure out exactly what they have up there. The details , you know. This is going to be so exciting when we get to the bottom of the crater.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

<preamble snipped for brevity> LUNA 16 through 24, or any other probe for that matter, may not know exactly where our "packages" lie, where our equipment is. We have a LRRR at 00 41' 15"(0.6875 degrees) north and 23 26' 00"(23.505 degrees) east, but we "hid the bird", presumably hid the main complement of our Apollo 11 package, our moon instrumenting equipment, so LUNAs may not be able to find our stuff so easily.

But that's not relevant to the issue of the Russians exposing the landing as a sham. It doesn't matter what imaginary sooper seekrit equipment they can't see, what matters is if they look and don't see the descent modules, footprint/wheel tracks, various experiments, lunar rovers etc which are supposed to be there. How are you going to fake all that without leaving any other traces?

Also, the Ruskies were instrumenting the moon as well, have instrumented it. We both signed the no weapons on the moon treaty in 1967, so neither side has any incentive to blow the whistle.

There is no air in space and whistles don't work, won't work.

Whatever equipment either side placed on the moon would be described as scientific instruments. Indeed, they would be scientific instruments, and not weapons. No need for secrecy. Any semi-plausible cover story for their intended purpose would be considered good enough deniability for the cold war era. Again it strikes me you don't appear to grasp the mood of the age. It makes one seriously doubt you're old enough to remember it. Your implication that the Russians would not shout it from the rooftops if they found NASA had not sent men to the moon is utterly implausible. You need a new motive here. I really cannot overemphasise how weak this bit of your fairy story is.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It's been addressed countless times, but your "star fright" nonsense is another house of cards built on a foundation of willful ignorance.

It's night where you are (right?). Go outside and look at the stars. Then come back in, turn on all the lights, sit in the middle of the room and look out of the window. Still see the stars? Case closed.

 

[R.A.F.]

...so neither side has any incentive to blow the whistle.

There is no air in space and whistles don't work, won't work.

Yet your ideas still blow...

Address the images, and my question, coward.

 

[R.A.F.]

"star phobia" and "laser fright" are more about the astronauts...blah, blah, blah".

Now ain't that cute...Patty is making up his own irrational terms to describe his own irrationality.

Wonder when he'll get around to calling them astronots?

 

[drewid]

Yet another raft of unprovable tosh.
Patrick there are other fora if you want to discuss fiction.
Nothing provable there,
Any more nonsense along the lines of "it must be a secret conspiracy because there's no evidence" will get all the scorn it deserves.

 

[Garrison]

With the tone and phrasing of his posts one wonders if Patrick hasn't already given up on his own ideas and is just settling for some old fashioned trolling?

 

[abaddon]

It all makes sense in the light of star phobia and laser fright.

Another very important question, previously answered very clearly, but perhaps not as directly as some would like. Let's do that here.

Redtail,

"star phobia" and "laser fright" are more about the astronauts not being forced to take someone else's picture than they are about avoiding pictures of the absentnauts.

Sure the absentnauts are absent. They are not at 00 41'15" north and 23 26' 00" east, and so bird hiding is in part about not exposing the absentnauts to the roving eye and camera of a space probe. The absence of the absentnauts at 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east on 07/21/69 at 03:00 UTC (EVA time) is proof of fraud. Remember NASA would be afraid of a probe regardless of what kind of camera it is packing. It is the threat of being photographed, or more appropriately, not photographed, that is enough of a concern.

Childish wordplay noted. The longer this goes on, the more your youth becomes apparent.

That aside, you have ignored the fact that Lick did not hit the target until August 1, long after the astronauts had departed.

You have yet to address the question of when exactly the correct co-ordinates were provided to Lick, by whom, to whom.

What probes had the resolution to find A11 from any country?

None until the LRO.

Also, keep in mind, the Russians have, in a very real sense, "won the space race".

Wrong.

They started instrumenting the moon BEFORE we did.

Any evidence? Didn't think so.

Their concern is more to see what we are doing, what we are parking up there. They know we don't have 2 men at 00 41' 15 " north and 23 26' 00" east. We have an LRRR and other "Apollo 11 stuff", perhaps in other places, perhaps all there.
So the absentnauts are exposed at 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east.

Now your notion has a problem.
If an unmanned A11 placed the LRRR at a known location, then all the other unidentified "Apollo stuff" must be at the same location

OR

You will have to propose some other rover type vehicle to distance the "Apollo stuff" from the LRRR. You wil find it challenging to invent a fantasy program to build such a thing and provide evidence for it.

Photos of absentnauts, or more appropriately, lack thereof, at Tranquility Base on 07/21/1969, would be incriminating and proof of fraud, but it is not NASA's main fear, nor NASA's main motivation.

Repetition. No probe existed with such capability.

The main fear has to do more with the absentnauts being "forced" to take a picture of a laser. Well, more precisely, exposed for NOT taking a picture when they should. If you shine an argon laser at commander Armstrong and it doesn't appear on his tv film from the lunar surface or cislunar space, well then you have busted the commander for his Halloween antics, and indeed that holiday is coming up, so it is more than appropriate we cover that in our lead up to Patrick1000's hotly anticipated 10/31/2011 super surprise, H-bomb on NASA's head post.

Repetition. No astronauts were present by the time Lick acquired the LRRR.

Also, as mentioned previously, friendlies can get the absentnauts in trouble with their cislunar truancy as well. This is because if the astronauts say, "yeah Hank, we see the laser! and a week later, Hank realizes he "missed" the Columbia by 2 degrees and a ton of miles, and the astronauts couldn't possibly have seen the argon laser from McDonald Observatory in El Paso, well then Hank knows the thing is fake and may say, "JEEEEEZ! WOW! maybe I should sell this info. for 5 cents or two nickels".

Repetition. No astronauts were present by the time Lick acquired the LRRR.

So the "fear of exposure", "star phobia" and "laser fright", has more to do with the fear of not being able to produce photos of lasers when they should as opposed to being shown to be skipping space school and truant from the bogus cislunar lab, "Columbinot".

Repetition. No astronauts were present by the time Lick acquired the LRRR. How many ways will you find of repeating the same false claim?

Finally, and to emphasize again, the Ruskies are doing reconnaissance here more or less. They could bust us, but that is not their intent because they like to park antennae, LRRRs and what not on the moon too.

Finally, the fewer the pics out there the better, regardless of Ruskie motivation. Pics can leak and the whole ditching space class charade can be exposed if one floats free. So NASA has many reasons to hide the bird, limit photos, or lack thereof, of absentnauts, limit photos of equipment.

It's actually pretty cool I think. Can't wait to figure out exactly what they have up there. The details , you know. This is going to be so exciting when we get to the bottom of the crater.

Finally, your usual wall of text ends with a swift trip into sci-fi.

 

[abaddon]

With the tone and phrasing of his posts one wonders if Patrick hasn't already given up on his own ideas and is just settling for some old fashioned trolling?

Well, I did notice the switch to a totaly different style, what with the pics and irrelevant quotations.

One account but multiple users?

A kind of inverse sock, perhaps?

 

[Garrison]

Well, I did notice the switch to a totaly different style, what with the pics and irrelevant quotations.

One account but multiple users?

A kind of inverse sock, perhaps?

Or one user, many personalities, that would explain the constant use of 'we' in his pronouncements.