Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Nothing to do with 16mm film analysis

Notice in Professor Wampler's note to me that the Lick team's successful targeting difficulties had nothing to do with the coordinates per se. they had the correct coordinates right up front, well with the exception of hearing "50" for "15", but that is no matter.

So as it turned out, Donald Beattie's team never had to analyze flight data or photography data, and the 16mm film analysis was never needed to identify 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east as the correct/true coordinates of Tranquility Base. Joe Wampler and his colleagues had them all along.
 
Read the Scientific American or national Geographic for yourself

Jack by the hedge said:
Yep, that speaks for itself: Prof Wampler doesn't mention anywhere there exactly when Lick observatory received the coordinates from NASA.

So when you told us that he did, what were you talking about?
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Read the Scientific American or national Geographic for yourself. Any reliable reference will relate the coordinates as having been passed directly to the Lick staff shortly after the LRRR was set down.

I was actually surprised when Wampler wrote me back with this answer. I expressed disbelief when i first wrote to him, disbelief that they had these coordinates so soon. Remember Jack by the hedge, NASA doesn't have these numbers officially until 08/01/1969. Wampler is working with them for days as above, there is the timing problem you see. These scientists are working independently of NASA until they get it correct. They did not need any more info..

Even if it was the case that Wampler wasn't given these numbers until a day later, which we know is not the case because even the Voice Transcript report features the public address officer announcing they are trying to target the LRRR immediately and additionally we know from the the television and print news reporters at Lick they were trying to target the LRRR that very evening, and these were indeed the ONLY coordinates Lick Observatory ever got.

So no matter how you slice it, even if they got these numbers on July the 31st, which they didn't, there is still foreknowledge and telemetry fraud.

And I will show you more when I am good and ready.
 
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Patrick1000 said:
... I will show you more when I am good and ready.
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Show us the coordinates NASA were working with on the day of the landing. I don't care about later confirmation of the coordinates, as that's obviously too late to be relevant to what was given to Lick observatory. I would like you to show us what numbers NASA did have available.
 
Mission Report Table 5-IV

Jack by the hedge said:
Show us the coordinates NASA were working with on the day of the landing. I don't care about later confirmation of the coordinates, as that's obviously too late to be relevant to what was given to Lick observatory. I would like you to show us what numbers NASA did have available.
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Go to my post #1178, it gives all of the real-time coordinates that NASA had to work with. I added and subtracted the correction factors.

If you would rather start from scratch and do it on your own, you can download a copy of the Mission Report for yourself, just google it, Apollo 11 Mission Report. All the possible coordinate solutions are found in table 5-IV. It was published in November of 1969. We have been working with these numbers all along here. There is no mystery to what they are or where they came from.

Other specifics regarding these numbers and another table of the same can be found in the Apollo Mission 11 Trajectory Report, published March 16 1969. Also can download this from the net.

Try the Mission Report first Jack by the hedge, or look at my post 1178.
 
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The Question I asked Joseph Wampler

Joseph Wampler's answer above was in response to the following question posed to him by me on 08/31/2011;


"Were they really able to provide you with such accurate coordinates on that very night; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east? It seems amazing they would be able to measure/determine the landing site position with such accuracy on the very night of the landing."


Obviously from the context of his answer you can see I asked other questions as well.
 
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So you were lying when you said they had the coordinates before the launch.
That email shows nothing of the sort.
 
They are ranging the LRRR well before the launch

drewid said:
So you were lying when you said they had the coordinates before the launch.
That email shows nothing of the sort.
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They are ranging the LRRR well before the launch.

This is from the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript with Public Address Commentary. Referring to a time well before the launch, the PAO is talking about them not having acquired the laser, but as we know, they have been trying, and trying for some time. The ONLY coordinates Wampler's team worked with were 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, though on the first night they targeted 00 41 50 north, 945 feet from Tranquility. So if they did not have the timing gate problem, even with the "50 for 15" confusion, they would have successfully got a return. Here is the PAO, reference to the laser is to a time before the launch;


"PAO "This is Apollo Control.
Some 6 minutes 40 seconds remaining until Apollo 11 goes behind
the moon on the 27th revolution. The signal from the
passive seismometer, which was left on the moon by the crew
of Eagle, was lost for 30 minutes beginning about 5 minutes
before Eagle took off this morning. The signal was lost
because of a equipment problem that the Canary Island tracking
station. The Seismic equipment is back on line now, and is
beginning to record lunar day surface temperatures. The dust
detector recorded zero dust after Eagle lift off. The laser
ground station have not yet acquired a return signal from
the Laser Ranging Retro Reflector. Five minutes away from
loss of signal with Apollo 11. We will continue to monitor
the air-to-ground as the spacecraft goes over the hill. The
crew now is engaged in the decontamination procedures inside
the lunar module prior to transferring back into the command module."
 
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We Blasted Away all night

drewid said:
So you were lying when you said they had the coordinates before the launch.
That email shows nothing of the sort.
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The Eagle was not launched until the next day.
Night had had passed and then the launch. But before that, before the launch, Wampler and Remington Stone blasted away all night. Here are a couple lines from the Remington Stone first person account article. I think this must be the night of the landing drewid, hard for him to get this one wrong. Remington Stone, the Lick Observatory Telescope operator, in his own words, describing what they did that evening, 07/20/1969, the evening before the launch, a launch many hours away;

"We blasted away all night but detected no return signal whatsoever. Things got pretty subdued later in the evening as it became apparent we had a problem."
 
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National Geographic weighs in

From the Apollo 11 National Geographic feature articles, VOL. 136, NO. 6. Page 776, section entitled , LASER HITS A FAR OFF TARGET;


"As soon as Neil Armstrong had put the laser reflector in place and carefully aimed it at earth, scientists began firing powerful pulses of ruby red light at it."
 
Tv crews there at lick that night

Again from Remington Stone's article;


"Channel 9 (PBS) and Channel 7 (ABC) both had news crews at the telescope for that first moon landing event in July 1969."

The crews were not there to see the laser targeted after the launch. The hope was for a successful targeting while the astronauts were on the moon. It was to be a glorious real time confirmation of the great event. Because it did not happen, because the LRRR was not successfully targeted before the launch, had nothing to do with the fact that Wampler and Stone hadn't given it their all.
 
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Patrick1000 said:
Go to my post #1178, it gives all of the real-time coordinates that NASA had to work with. I added and subtracted the correction factors.
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OK. I'm looking at number 8(b) - the coordinates obtained by photography.

Is it your contention that this figure refers to post-mission analysis of 16mm film, or is it in fact a comparison of the visible surroundings of Tranquility base with photographic reconnaisance maps?

If so, do you have any evidence to support your contention?
 
More to come, much much more to share.




I obviously have much more to share with regard to the goings on at Lick Observatory that evening.
 
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It is not a contention, see the trajectory report

Jack by the hedge said:
OK. I'm looking at number 8(b) - the coordinates obtained by photography.

Is it your contention that this figure refers to post-mission analysis of 16mm film, or is it in fact a comparison of the visible surroundings of Tranquility base with photographic reconnaisance maps?

If so, do you have any evidence to support your contention?
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NASA itself says they did not have these numbers until well after, Emil Scheisser the head trajectory analyst says they did not. My claim is NASA's claim. that has been my point all along. you are beginning to see the light my friend. Everywhere you look you will see those numbers are not known until AFTER the astronauts return.
 
Study up, gotta' run!

Jack by the hedge said:
OK. I'm looking at number 8(b) - the coordinates obtained by photography.

Is it your contention that this figure refers to post-mission analysis of 16mm film, or is it in fact a comparison of the visible surroundings of Tranquility base with photographic reconnaisance maps?

If so, do you have any evidence to support your contention?
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Study up, gotta' run! Yes the 16 mm IS the BET, BEST ESTIMATE! Now you are cooking.

That is not a real-time solution.
 
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No, you have not shown that NASA said that. Show us the figures that NASA had on the day. I don't care what later analysis confirmed. Show us how you conclude that your figure 8(b) comes form post-mission analysis.

I am only asking for you to make your case succinctly and logically, which in 2600 posts you have yet to do.
 
photography=16mm

Jack by the hedge said:
Show us how you know that "Photography" = "16mm analysis".
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Trajectory Report page 75;

"Note that both the BET #3 and the On board MSFN H-S estimates are very close to the16mm photographic estimate (accepted as
the best estimate)."

Trajectory Report page 78, Table 7.11 LM Landing Site Coordinates, sixth entry down;

"16 MM latitude 0.647, longitude 23.505 Radius N/A,"

add and subtract the correction factors just as they do in the Mission report and gives 0.6875, 23.435, gives 00 41 15, 23 26 00
 
Patrick1000 said:
<snip>So one of the things Apollo sought to do, and presumably succeeded in, was to plant antennae on the surface of the moon to directly pick up these signals. No "bounce" required.
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Patrick1000 said:
If one emits far red coherent laser light from the moon, no one will see it. That's not necessarily to say that was done. But laser light is narrow, unless you know where it is going, you are not going to pick it up.

Remember, the 1 watt argon laser that Surveor VII imaged was as bight as Sirius, yet all of LA, right next to that laser, breathing in and pumping out millions of watts, was literally invisible.
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Been a long time time since I took physics from Dr. Jeong in college, but I do remember how laser works, at least the basic principles.

I'm more interested in how these two quotes reconcile: I thought you were talking about relay stations and radio propagation.
 
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We drifted back to trajectory fraud

SUSpilot said:
Been a long time time since I took physics from Dr. Jeong in college, but I do remember how laser works, at least the basic principles.

I'm more interested in how these two quotes reconcile: I thought you were talking about relay stations and radio propagation.
Click to expand...

We drifted back to trajectory fraud.
 
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