Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
Incest in a lift
- Thread starter Ian Osborne
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RandFan
Mormon Atheist
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This entire affair reminds me of the laugh in line, "very interesting but stupid" --Arte Johnson
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
What the story doesn't report is that they were on their way up to mum's flat for a three way. She was pissed they started without her.
I can think of and have heard of a rather large number of more depraved things as you note here - and they do seem a good fit for each other!
commandlinegamer
Philosopher
You know what they say... 'cest is best.
Seriously though, I think its a bit hypocritical to expect a modern 21st century society where sex is relatively as open and unrestrained as it is and where love equals sex to differentiate between the hot body of some random chick and the hot body of your sister/cousin. You can't have a society making sexual and relationship decisions based purely on sexual compatibility and then expect this same lust to not be present simply because the person happens to be a relative. I think sexual feelings toward particularly same-age, opposite sex relatives is a lot more common than people believe. Its simply too much to ask for a 15 year old boy to not be attracted to his hot cousin simply because she is allegedly (from his point of view) related to him. You can have a society where people make a big deal about and obsess over their sexual desires or you can have a society that condemns incest, but to have both is inconsistent and hypocritical. I'm not saying incest is okay, I'm just saying that the average, sexually oriented person's general outrage toward it is an inconsistent position with no real foundation.
Seriously though, I think its a bit hypocritical to expect a modern 21st century society where sex is relatively as open and unrestrained as it is and where love equals sex to differentiate between the hot body of some random chick and the hot body of your sister/cousin. You can't have a society making sexual and relationship decisions based purely on sexual compatibility and then expect this same lust to not be present simply because the person happens to be a relative. I think sexual feelings toward particularly same-age, opposite sex relatives is a lot more common than people believe. Its simply too much to ask for a 15 year old boy to not be attracted to his hot cousin simply because she is allegedly (from his point of view) related to him. You can have a society where people make a big deal about and obsess over their sexual desires or you can have a society that condemns incest, but to have both is inconsistent and hypocritical. I'm not saying incest is okay, I'm just saying that the average, sexually oriented person's general outrage toward it is an inconsistent position with no real foundation.
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RandFan
Mormon Atheist
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Incest has always been. Read your Bible. There is no evidence that it is now more prevalent. That's just silly. This is an anecdote.
I prefaced it with "I think" not "I know and here is the evidence...," particularly because the incidence of incestuous sexual feelings would be difficult to assess.
And I never said that it is more prevalent now than in the past. I said that its incidence is (and, presumably, always has been), more prolific than assumed by the average person who rails against it like it is the worst, most disgusting thing ever.
Even if I did say that incest has historically been increasing, the Bible is not a valid historical source from which to get data.
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RandFan
Mormon Atheist
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My apologies. Though I don't think incest would be in the bible if it didn't exist. In any event my tack was wrong. I don't agree with you about the hypocrisy. I think that is a non sequitur. Our attitudes about sex don't justify any and every behavior. FWIW: It doesn't "disgust" me. I don't want to have sex with any of my family members and I think it unwise for many reasons but otherwise, yawn.
ETA: Sexual activity with minors and coerced sex foes disgust me.
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Fair enough... at this point I think the argument becomes about why people think incest is wrong. The disgusted attitude toward incest usually isn't taken because of the legitimate practical reasons of genetic problems that you mention - the reason is in fact never mentioned.
EDIT: Off topic.
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Actually I believe the quote is, more fully: Vice is nice, candy is dandy, liquor is quicker but incest is best. This is, by a long shot, not original.................
HansMustermann
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1. As was pointed out, it's not new. Probably the record in the ancient world were the Egyptians, where it was actually considered the IDEAL and most divine form of marriage. (Their creation story even involves a brother and a sister among gods who pretty much went at it like rabbits day and night until the other gods had to pull them apart.) Granted, it was less common among the lowest classes, but among royalty it was the norm, and prevalence varied kinda as you'd expect between those two extremes.
2. Less extreme forms of marriage were however more prevalent in the past than nowadays. E.g., marrying a niece was very usual actually, all over the place. E.g., in Greece. (E.g., Leonidas of 300 fame, let's just say basically his mom was his first cousin too.) And even the Middle East. (While the Torah forbade a guy boning an aunt, there was no symmetrical interdiction against a woman getting laid by an uncle. And it was practiced. See, Herodias and a few other well known cases.) Marriage among first cousins was at one point ok world-wide too.
Heck, IIRC, even marriage among half-brothers was not ok if they shared a father, but was ok if they were from the same woman but different fathers. (They didn't consider the woman to contribute much there, basically.)
3. And that's just, you know, the kinds that were OK. As Randfan pointed out, there is plenty of evidence other stuff happening even when it's not ok.
4. For that matter, I'd think the saner conclusion is that it has nothing to do with freedom of sex, but simply with what society considers taboo at a given time. Nobody can accuse for example the ancient Hebrews of being all open minded about sex, but they still allowed stuff that we'd consider incest nowadays. Again, I don't even mean as in "eh, it was happening," but as in, it was perfectly normal and allowed.
(So if you ever look at history and it looks like the result of some inbred teenagers making the rules and decisions... yes.)
5. That said, I don't consider looking hot to be the overriding criterion. (Even for people who look better than THOSE two
) Humans are supposed to be able to control their urges, you know?
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Thanks for the info. Not that it was solicited, but thanks anyway. I can always stand to learn more about things like incest!
5. That said, I don't consider looking hot to be the overriding criterion. (Even for people who look better than THOSE two
Even the mere urge (not the act) people proclaim to be disgusting. It may be, but it isn't indicative of any psychological problem, it is the mere result of being lustful over female/male bodies, which is a prevalent thing in society which almost everybody experiences. Its totally hypocritical to pretend that its some weird psychological problem if you are yourself given to lusting after others, since this bodily lust is the primary thing that motivates incest. See what I'm trying to say? I could probably be explaining myself more clearly...
Strictly speaking, the urge to bork your cousin is no more disgusting or immoral than your urge to bork a random cute girl that you see in the store. If you find either unpalatable, than you should be railing against unrestrained sexual urge in general, as this is the cause of both.
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WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
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Judging from the pics maybe they should see if mom and dad are also brother-sister?
And those are awesome pics, especially of the brother!
RandFan
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Given the increase in genetic defect it would make sense if we as a species evolved a sense of disgust for incest. IIRC, marrying cousins was a cultural thing among aristocracy to keep fortunes and power in the family.
WildCat
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But this is Scotland, where men are men and the sheep are scared. And 80s-style track suits are still acceptable everyday wear.
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
Well hey, there were few enough people back then that pretty much everyone was a blood relation aye?
That may be true, but being against incest as a matter of mere utility doesn't justify the view of it being "depraved" or "disgusting." It is obvious that people don't have such vociferous and strong opinions about incest out of a nuanced and scientific concern for the future of the human species as a whole - their sentiment is more emotional and conditioned than it is rational. Indeed, as I have been arguing, it isn't rational at all and cannot be justified. Remember, I'm saying that the contention that incest is disgusting, immoral, psychologically wrong or depraved cannot be objectively sustained while simultaneously holding the view that flagrant lust in general is perfectly acceptable - they are mutually exclusive. I'm not disputing the less frequently mentioned contention that incest leads to bad outcomes.
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