Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

Diarrhea everywhere and he takes another pill?

So Borman is telling the truth about taking half a Seconal, but lying about experiencing only headache and nausea?

You really are a selective reader, Patrick.

Talk about selective!

Borman doesn't mention the profuse diarrhea here, obviously this story is a cover, and you ignore this fact. Jeeeeezzzzzzeeeee!!!!!

Diarrhea everywhere and he takes another pill?! It's a lie, cannot be true. Impossible, phony, fake! What planet do you live on nomuse??????!!!!!

All of Apollo is proven bogus, right there. Caught, "ruby red laser handed", jiving us with his fake poop that he got at the 5 and dime.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

"A determination of the second and fourth order sectorial harmonics in the geopotential from the motion of 12-hr satellites

James P. Murphya and Eric L. Victora

a Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland, U.S.A.
Revised 26 September 1967.
Available online 11 October 2002.

Abstract

Only the terms in the geopotential for which a commensurability exists between the rotational speed of the Earth and the mean motion of a satellite result in long-term perturbations in the semimajor axis of the satellite orbit. The perturbation equation for the semimajor axis due to a two to one commensurability is obtained by considering the tesseral and sectorial harmonics through the fifth degree. Slightly different sets of values for the second and fourth degree sectorial harmonics are then obtained, for slightly different gravitational models, by least squares from the observed long term perturbations in the semimajor axes of the orbits of the satellites 1964 49D (Cosmos 41) and 1965 30A (Molniya 1). "


Of course one would do infinitely better than these guys did with the calculations were one to use an instrumented/LRRR equipped moon, as opposed to just any ol' satellite for determining the 2nd and fouth harmonics in the Earth's potential.

How good a job did "these guys" actually do, and how much better a job would the Apollo instrumentation allow? Please briefly explain what leads you to declare that "of course one could do infinitely better".

I think I can still smell some of that "profuse diarrhea".

 

[Patrick1000]

Ringleaders

See the point made at the astronomical symposium. Look at the trajectory calculations for all rockets, polaris to Saturn to Trident. They include k2, j, K. You should have no trouble convincing yourself of the truth in Samuel Harrick's presentation.

Also, another point, and there are many many more to make as well beyond this, it is a simple fact that the transoceanic distances were not known to any degree of accuracy in the 1960s. The LRRRs changed all that. We learned about variations in the earth's gravitational field due to mass concentrations. We learned about the distances, midwest to Moscow. And that is only the beginning.

I for one am actually comfortable with this, though it is so obvious that it is bogus now, it really is an embarrassment. I think what they did was reasonable. I think the astronauts suffered. Well maybe not Borman, he only pretended to suffer.

Don't know the ring leaders, maybe spotted a few of the little injuns. Since you have been following, I need not explain my reasons for suspecting Emil Schiesser, Steve Bales, and Charles Berry. They may or may not be in on the fix, but more likely than not are. Reasons already given.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Talk about selective!

Borman doesn't mention the profuse diarrhea here, obviously this story is a cover, and you ignore this fact. Jeeeeezzzzzzeeeee!!!!!

Yes, let's talk about selectivity if you like. Do you imagine that Life magazine would have published any remark Borman made about crapping his pants, even if he had done so? Of course not. If you imagine they would then you are delusional.

By the way, in your medical opinion, exactly how much diarrhea counts as "profuse"? How do you measure it? How did you measure it in this case?

 

[Patrick1000]

Manned program gives you a fig leaf.

See the point made at the astronomical symposium. Look at the trajectory calculations for all rockets, polaris to Saturn to Trident. They include k2, j, K. You should have no trouble convincing yourself of the truth in Samuel Harrick's presentation.

Also, another point, and there are many many more to make as well beyond this, it is a simple fact that the transoceanic distances were not known to any degree of accuracy in the 1960s. The LRRRs changed all that. We learned about variations in the earth's gravitational field due to mass concentrations. We learned about the distances, midwest to Moscow. And that is only the beginning.

I for one am actually comfortable with this, though it is so obvious that it is bogus now, it really is an embarrassment. I think what they did was reasonable. I think the astronauts suffered. Well maybe not Borman, he only pretended to suffer.

A manned program at least gives you a little fig leaf. If you start planting satellites up there, boom, in everyone's face, its obvious from the get go you are up to no good. Also, are we sure the only thing they left were "passive LRRRs"? Maybe the devices are active as well. Also, being open about a military operation like this rachets up everyone's anxiety.

They used the ranging for military reasons, and I for one am comfortable with it. The cover up now 40 years latter is an embarrassment.

 

[Patrick1000]

Land mass distances

I'm new here. I have followed Fattydash/P1K's specious arguments and the generally well-reasoned and often amusing rebuttals to his nonsense across three forums. As someone that grew up during the heady days of the early manned space program (unlike our protagonist in these posts, I really was born in the '50's), I have found this to be a fun pursuit to help further my education regarding Apollo. Besides, during my annual volunteer week at Oshkosh, it made for good reading on my iPad in the evenings.

However, what finally motivated me to post something is what is quoted above. Y'see, my young poseur, I have one distinct advantage over you, even if you have all of the qualifications you claim: I've had the honor and privilege of meeting, having conversations with, and looking both Colonel Frank Borman and Captain James Lovell in the eye. If they're lying or dissembling in any way about either Apollo VIII, or, in Captain Lovell's case, Apollo XIII, they are the best actors I've ever met.

Since I am a newbie, I challenge you, right here and now, to answer, without referring to that silly post 1708, or whatever number it is, the following:

What time (preferably in UTC, so there is no ambiguity) did the Lick Observatory get the infamous coordinates?

Who, specifically, are the ringleaders that managed to pull off the greatest disinformation stunt of all time, duping the world's governments, press, scientists, 400,000 participants, ham radio operators, amateur astronomers ("scientists" included the professionals), etc, etc., ad infinitum? Note that even General Groves couldn't keep speculation about the Atomic Bomb out of the popular press (see Racing for The Bomb by Robert S. Norris).

Related to the above, was it fraud or a cover? If it was fraud, who benefitted? If it was a security cover to plant LRRR's for targeting, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to send advanced Surveyors and hide the program in plain sight?

How inaccurate were the distances between global landmasses in, oh, 1968?

Related to the above, what were the CEP's of the Titan, Minuteman, and Polaris missiles? (That last might be unfair, as that's probably still classified, but I have seen some amazing info in open source material, so there's a challenge for you.)

To all the regulars, I apologize for this wall of text.

To Patrick, please note that each question can be answered in one or two sentences, or with a short list. If you've actually got facts, not obfuscation, that's all you'll need.

Have seen varying figures. Some figures in a paper that appeared in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, I think May '68, looked really good to me, only off by hundreds of feet. Almost nothing. Other stuff I have looked at seems quite significant, much greater distances. Joseph Wampler mentioned the significance in his 2009 interview and reiterated that in communication with me. I buy it. Wampler is smart, and has no reason to not tell the truth. Probably would need to look at old classified stuff and compare, Kansas to Moscow over the pole 1969 vs now and see how far off they were.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If you start planting satellites up there, boom, in everyone's face, its obvious fronm the get go you are up to no good.

Ah - that explains why the US and the Soviets carefully avoided launching any satellites... oh, wait...



PS Why does Patrick prefer to reply to his own posts, instead of everyone else's... oh, wait...

 

[Patrick1000]

CEPs

I'm new here. I have followed Fattydash/P1K's specious arguments and the generally well-reasoned and often amusing rebuttals to his nonsense across three forums. As someone that grew up during the heady days of the early manned space program (unlike our protagonist in these posts, I really was born in the '50's), I have found this to be a fun pursuit to help further my education regarding Apollo. Besides, during my annual volunteer week at Oshkosh, it made for good reading on my iPad in the evenings.

However, what finally motivated me to post something is what is quoted above. Y'see, my young poseur, I have one distinct advantage over you, even if you have all of the qualifications you claim: I've had the honor and privilege of meeting, having conversations with, and looking both Colonel Frank Borman and Captain James Lovell in the eye. If they're lying or dissembling in any way about either Apollo VIII, or, in Captain Lovell's case, Apollo XIII, they are the best actors I've ever met.

Since I am a newbie, I challenge you, right here and now, to answer, without referring to that silly post 1708, or whatever number it is, the following:

What time (preferably in UTC, so there is no ambiguity) did the Lick Observatory get the infamous coordinates?

Who, specifically, are the ringleaders that managed to pull off the greatest disinformation stunt of all time, duping the world's governments, press, scientists, 400,000 participants, ham radio operators, amateur astronomers ("scientists" included the professionals), etc, etc., ad infinitum? Note that even General Groves couldn't keep speculation about the Atomic Bomb out of the popular press (see Racing for The Bomb by Robert S. Norris).

Related to the above, was it fraud or a cover? If it was fraud, who benefitted? If it was a security cover to plant LRRR's for targeting, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to send advanced Surveyors and hide the program in plain sight?

How inaccurate were the distances between global landmasses in, oh, 1968?

Related to the above, what were the CEP's of the Titan, Minuteman, and Polaris missiles? (That last might be unfair, as that's probably still classified, but I have seen some amazing info in open source material, so there's a challenge for you.)

To all the regulars, I apologize for this wall of text.

To Patrick, please note that each question can be answered in one or two sentences, or with a short list. If you've actually got facts, not obfuscation, that's all you'll need.

The CEPs I do not know off the top of my head. The point the guy made in the 1957 astronautics symposium presentation was that ICBM targeting was very inaccurate in the late 50s early 1960s anyway. I have come across half a dozen papers discussing the Gaussian constant, j and K coefficient problems with satellite and intercontinental trajectories. The Saturn V trajectory itself features these numbers.

Look for yourself, they did not have the numbers. Pretty hard to debunk the old time rocket guys saying the numbers needed to be better.

 

[Patrick1000]

We USA temporarily benefit, then long term big down side.

I'm new here. I have followed Fattydash/P1K's specious arguments and the generally well-reasoned and often amusing rebuttals to his nonsense across three forums. As someone that grew up during the heady days of the early manned space program (unlike our protagonist in these posts, I really was born in the '50's), I have found this to be a fun pursuit to help further my education regarding Apollo. Besides, during my annual volunteer week at Oshkosh, it made for good reading on my iPad in the evenings.

However, what finally motivated me to post something is what is quoted above. Y'see, my young poseur, I have one distinct advantage over you, even if you have all of the qualifications you claim: I've had the honor and privilege of meeting, having conversations with, and looking both Colonel Frank Borman and Captain James Lovell in the eye. If they're lying or dissembling in any way about either Apollo VIII, or, in Captain Lovell's case, Apollo XIII, they are the best actors I've ever met.

Since I am a newbie, I challenge you, right here and now, to answer, without referring to that silly post 1708, or whatever number it is, the following:

What time (preferably in UTC, so there is no ambiguity) did the Lick Observatory get the infamous coordinates?

Who, specifically, are the ringleaders that managed to pull off the greatest disinformation stunt of all time, duping the world's governments, press, scientists, 400,000 participants, ham radio operators, amateur astronomers ("scientists" included the professionals), etc, etc., ad infinitum? Note that even General Groves couldn't keep speculation about the Atomic Bomb out of the popular press (see Racing for The Bomb by Robert S. Norris).

Related to the above, was it fraud or a cover? If it was fraud, who benefitted? If it was a security cover to plant LRRR's for targeting, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to send advanced Surveyors and hide the program in plain sight?

How inaccurate were the distances between global landmasses in, oh, 1968?

Related to the above, what were the CEP's of the Titan, Minuteman, and Polaris missiles? (That last might be unfair, as that's probably still classified, but I have seen some amazing info in open source material, so there's a challenge for you.)

To all the regulars, I apologize for this wall of text.

To Patrick, please note that each question can be answered in one or two sentences, or with a short list. If you've actually got facts, not obfuscation, that's all you'll need.

Short term, the ruse benefits US interests. We "measure the earth", determine
the Gaussian Gravitational constant, J and K to incredible degrees of exactness, we determine local variations in Earth's gravity, "mass concentrations", we determine any variability in earth rotation which if significant would be important with respect to rocket trajectories by way of Coriolis Effect concerns, we study lasers, our satellite technology is generally advanced. And this is only some of the stuff, and then only if it is all passive. What if they threw "extras" in there? Maybe have some active "covert" pulsing with long wavelength /invisible light. Or cameras in addition to the reflectors?

Long term, it is a disaster. When this thing blows, everyone at NASA will have Borman poop on their face.

 

[Patrick1000]

Lovell is the only one I don't like

I'm new here. I have followed Fattydash/P1K's specious arguments and the generally well-reasoned and often amusing rebuttals to his nonsense across three forums. As someone that grew up during the heady days of the early manned space program (unlike our protagonist in these posts, I really was born in the '50's), I have found this to be a fun pursuit to help further my education regarding Apollo. Besides, during my annual volunteer week at Oshkosh, it made for good reading on my iPad in the evenings.

However, what finally motivated me to post something is what is quoted above. Y'see, my young poseur, I have one distinct advantage over you, even if you have all of the qualifications you claim: I've had the honor and privilege of meeting, having conversations with, and looking both Colonel Frank Borman and Captain James Lovell in the eye. If they're lying or dissembling in any way about either Apollo VIII, or, in Captain Lovell's case, Apollo XIII, they are the best actors I've ever met.

Since I am a newbie, I challenge you, right here and now, to answer, without referring to that silly post 1708, or whatever number it is, the following:

What time (preferably in UTC, so there is no ambiguity) did the Lick Observatory get the infamous coordinates?

Who, specifically, are the ringleaders that managed to pull off the greatest disinformation stunt of all time, duping the world's governments, press, scientists, 400,000 participants, ham radio operators, amateur astronomers ("scientists" included the professionals), etc, etc., ad infinitum? Note that even General Groves couldn't keep speculation about the Atomic Bomb out of the popular press (see Racing for The Bomb by Robert S. Norris).

Related to the above, was it fraud or a cover? If it was fraud, who benefitted? If it was a security cover to plant LRRR's for targeting, wouldn't it have been cheaper and easier to send advanced Surveyors and hide the program in plain sight?

How inaccurate were the distances between global landmasses in, oh, 1968?

Related to the above, what were the CEP's of the Titan, Minuteman, and Polaris missiles? (That last might be unfair, as that's probably still classified, but I have seen some amazing info in open source material, so there's a challenge for you.)

To all the regulars, I apologize for this wall of text.

To Patrick, please note that each question can be answered in one or two sentences, or with a short list. If you've actually got facts, not obfuscation, that's all you'll need.

Lovell is the only "astronaut" I do not like because he made all that money off that idiotic Apollo 13 book when Ron Howard and Tom Hanks made an even more idiotic movie based on the idiotic book. EEEEEE GADDDDDS!!!!!! What a SCAM!!!!!

 

[Andy_Ross]

So from your descriptions it would seem the guy was stripped off, squatting with his ass in the air and spraying poop around the cabin.

 

[Patrick1000]

That is exactly correct

So from your descriptions it would seem the guy was stripped off, squatting with his ass in the air and spraying poop around the cabin.

NASA, Borman's and the claims of the other astronauts are that they poop in plastic bags, and even when they do not have diarrhea, it is messy and the poop "gets away". Now in Borman's case, according to the "official narrative" that Borman conveniently redacted, at roughly hour 18 of the flight, this malady hit him and he proceed to poop up a storm. His buddies caught the poop and cleaned it up as best they could with paper towels. And that was that, well until we found this gem. So then after this happens, and OH YES!, they actually consider aborting the flight per the official narrative, Borman decides to take secanol AGAIN, only makes sense. Not like a doctor wouldn't say, "whatever you do don't take that stuff again, it may have been what made you sick!"

It really is, it really is the dumbest Apollo mini-tale I have ever come across.

AND they are so very concerned about forward contamination, ever here of contingency plans for poop control on the outside chance Aldrin would have been dumb enough to have taken secanol at Tranquility Base after it had already made the Apollo 8 commander so ill?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Short term, the ruse benefits US interests. We "measure the earth", determine
the Gaussian Gravitational constant, J and K to incredible degrees of exactness, we determine local variations in Earth's gravity, "mass concentrations", we determine any variability in earth rotation which if significant would be important with respect to rocket trajectories by way of Coriolis Effect concerns, we study lasers, our satellite technology is generally advanced. And this is only some of the stuff, and then only if it is all passive. What if they threw "extras" in there? Maybe have some active "covert" pulsing with long wavelength /invisible light. Or cameras in addition to the reflectors?

Long term, it is a disaster. When this thing blows, everyone at NASA will have Borman poop on their face.

In what way do you imagine all that handwaving addresses the questions in post you were replying to?

 

[Kiwi9]

Patrick1000 -- I would appreciate you answering my simple questions, which you have been ignoring. I asked them so that we can appreciate exactly what it is you understand about David Reed. This is the link:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7540648&postcount=2079

And no doubt Drewid would appreciate a short response from you to his question about your radial velocity calculations:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7537627&postcount=2019

Is it at all possible for you to pay more attention to the normal courtesies of communication on internet fora instead of showing bad manners and simply ignoring them? We have to remind you to provide answers far too often.

 

[dafydd]

Yes...your ignorance is nauseating...

If only he would stop sticking his fingers down our throats.

 

[dafydd]

Ah - that explains why the US and the Soviets carefully avoided launching any satellites... oh, wait...



PS Why does Patrick prefer to reply to his own posts, instead of everyone else's... oh, wait...

Patrick is the only person who takes Patrick seriously. A one man fan club too.

 

[dafydd]

So from your descriptions it would seem the guy was stripped off, squatting with his ass in the air and spraying poop around the cabin.

One can get bored on these space missions.

 

[tsig]

NASA, Borman's and the claims of the other astronauts are that they poop in plastic bags, and even when they do not have diarrhea, it is messy and the poop "gets away". Now in Borman's case, according to the "official narrative" that Borman conveniently redacted, at roughly hour 18 of the flight, this malady hit him and he proceed to poop up a storm. His buddies caught the poop and cleaned it up as best they could with paper towels. And that was that, well until we found this gem. So then after this happens, and OH YES!, they actually consider aborting the flight per the official narrative, Borman decides to take secanol AGAIN, only makes sense. Not like a doctor wouldn't say, "whatever you do don't take that stuff again, it may have been what made you sick!"

It really is, it really is the dumbest Apollo mini-tale I have ever come across.

AND they are so very concerned about forward contamination, ever here of contingency plans for poop control on the outside chance Aldrin would have been dumb enough to have taken secanol at Tranquility Base after it had already made the Apollo 8 commander so ill?

All children go thru a feces fascination phase but most grow out of it.

 

[Patrick1000]

Energy Intergral for Satellites

I found a nice article from 1968;

"On the energy integral for satellites'
By ARNE BJERHAMMAR, Institute of Geodesy, Royal College
of Technology, Stockholm
(Manuscript received March 12, 1968)"

There is a section on the first page that emphasizes my earlier point with regard to moon and sun effects on a free falling/coasting ICBM post boost.

"An orbiting satellite is exposed to the gravity
field of the earth and all other celestial
bodies. If we disregard the influence of solar
radiation, the air drag, and distant celestial
bodies we have the following relation between
the gravitational and the kinetic potential of
an orbiting satellite.

V(j) + GM/r1 + GM/r2 - v(j)squared/2 = c


where

Vj=potential of the earth in the orbit (at point P(j) )
G =gravitational constant,
r1 =distance to the moon from the satellite,
M, =mass of moon,
r2 =distance to the sun from the satellite,
M,=mass of the sun,
v, =velocity of the satellite,
c =constant.
This relation is based on the laws of conservation
of energy and needs no direct explanation.
The gravitational energy and the
kinetic energy must balance in such a, way
that there always is a constant difference."




A beautiful little description of an earth satellite's energy profile. Note very carefully how author Arne Bjerhammar includes V(earth related potential), the moon related potential, the sun related potential and the satellites(ICBMs) kenetic energy as the 4 most relevant factors comprising this dynamic energy profile.

LRRR ranging as we have already seen will help us with the most accurate r1 and r2 measurements ever, relative to the times of course. The study would also improve our understanding/accuracy with regard to the first term there as well, V(j).

So an ICBM's energy profile can be described quite nicely by the above equation, and we see LRRR ranging would provide military scientists with the very best data they had ever seen, by a light year, for the 3 first(potential energy) terms.

LRRR science with important civilian and military applications? You betcha'!!!!!! Determining satellite energy profiles with all the greater accuracy!

 

[dafydd]

All children go thru a feces fascination phase but most grow out of it.

Young Pat must be a devotee of Anna Freud.