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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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I need a score card to tell exactly what Patrick is arguing now. What a mess
 
twinstead said:
I need a score card to tell exactly what Patrick is arguing now. What a mess
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OK, i will do my best.

The evidence from the astronaut is good, except when it is bad.

The evidence from mission control is good, except when it is bad.

The evidence from scientists is good, except when it is bad.

The evidence from geologists is good good, except when it is bad.

It is cherry-picking gone wild.
 
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I've been reading various accounts. So far, the ONLY place I've seen reporting the coordinates as having been at Lick on the evening of the 20th is the UC Santa Cruz student paper.
 
Patrick1000 said:
EEEEEEE GADDDSSSS! nomuse, get a grip! Talk about a poor sport. Sure I out-researched you guys, but at least we got to the bottom of it all.

In the University of Santa Cruz News Letter of July 2009 we learned from Joe Wampler, here again are his words;

""The Russians knew very accurately the distance between Russian cities and between cities within the United States, but they didn't know the distance between the U.S. and Russia," explained Joe Wampler, professor emeritus of astronomy, who coordinated the experiment for the observatory. "Having an accurate measure of the distance to the moon at a moment in time would've given them that information. I was kind of upset about that, because we went into this as a scientific experiment. We weren't doing it for national security."


And some of us, myself, you, included, were't exactly sure what Wampler meant by this, though we suspected it had to do with taking measurements from both sides of the Atlantic, and then we find out that is in fact the case.

It turned out, surprisingly really at first, and then not surprisingly when one paused to think about it and considered the times, the distances across the great oceans were not known, and ranging satellites, all kinds of satellites, whether artificial or natural, such as the moon, could help one determine with great precision terrestrial distances. And that has a lot of practical value if one is thinking about parking a big fat 20 megaton birthday present in Mao's backyard there at the Forbidden City, or in Nikita's garden there in the Kremlin.

So we didn't go in peace nomuse. Once the LRRR was up there, we got the French and others to do some ranging for us too, simultaneous ranging I would imagine, connecting the dots kind of stuff, and we figured out how best to blow up Moscow. Only makes perfect sense.

I am comfortable with that. Nikita Khrushchev was trying to slip one or two by us from Cuba. Now we understand a little better the rationale for the Jupiter missiles in Turkey, even though they weren't that good I guess.

Back in those days, they couldn't aim ICBMs so well, that is until we "landed on the moon".
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Some of us were alive back in those days.

Missiles used an inertial guidance system.
 
tsig said:
Some of us were alive back in those days.

Missiles used an inertial guidance system.
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And, they may not have been accurate enough to hit an X drawn in the dirt, but they were close enough to make the dirt disappear.
 
I was 11 years old in 1969, so?

tsig said:
Some of us were alive back in those days.

Missiles used an inertial guidance system.
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That hardly invalidates Professor Wampler's point about the LRRR moon ranging's providing useful distance information for ICBM targeting. A Minuteman II missile of late sixties vintage does indeed have an electronic autopilot and inertial guidance, but that doesn't mean one can get by without knowing the precise distance from its midwest silo to Moscow.

Your point is irrelevant. We all know the ICBMS had inertial guidance. So supposedly did the Apollo crafts. Doesn't mean you don't need to know how far you're going.

These are not cruise missiles "reading maps", they are 1960s vintage electronic auto piloted, inertial guidance based rockets that need distance numbers in their programming.

Again, I would suggest the talented staff at Lick Observatory; Professors Miller, Wampler and Robinson know a bit more than we do here in this forum. If they are telling us that the Tranquility Base coordinates were kept secret on the evening of 07/20/1969(and thereafter) because these coordinates had military applications in terms of their providing, by way of LRRR/moon ranging, theretofore unknown transoceanic distance measurements, then unless we can come up with a good reason to say they are off target, it makes more than a little sense to accept what the professors are telling us as true and move on.

It strikes me as more than ridiculous to challenge Professor Wampler on this issue, especially knowing what we all know about ICBMS of that era. They were not cruise missiles, distance data was critical in their effective targeting.
 
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Submarine based missiles

Another point we have overlooked. Highly accurate transoceanic distance measurements would obviously have important military applications in submarine based ICBM target ranging. It is more than obvious what the Apollo boys are up to here.
 
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Think about the subs fess.

fess said:
And, they may not have been accurate enough to hit an X drawn in the dirt, but they were close enough to make the dirt disappear.
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Knowing what we know now fess. They had to have the LRRRs for accurate distance measurements and quantitative oceanic cartography. It is obvious. The moon ranging made sub based ballistic missile targeting relatively accurate. Before they had this, they din't know how big the oceans were, not to the degree necessary for the weapons to be a meaningful threat. If an ICBM lands in a Moscow suburb instead of in the Kremlin's front yard, it's a problem. If an American ICBM targeting a Russian ICBM silo is off by 5 miles, that's a big deal. 10 miles, a huge deal. This stuff is very relevant
 
Not exactly.

R.A.F. said:
So, you've "won", eh?

Guess you can leave now...
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Won't be able to post much soon, but lots to look forward to over the long haul. Some great stuff coming up soon on Apollo 11, and then we have 8, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, Not so sure I have much interest in 9 and 10 , will see. But given it has taken about 4-5 months to work through 11, we have at least 6 more missions to go. that is roughly 35 months of chit chat here. Though Apollo 11's goose, I mean Eagle, is cooked, we still have lots to look for ward to over the next 3 years as we march on and prove the balance of the missions fraudulent as well. I can hardly wait RAF, how about you?
 
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Patrick1000 said:
Again, I would suggest the talented staff at Lick Observatory; Professors Miller, Wampler and Robinson know a bit more than we do here in this forum. If they are telling us that the Tranquility Base coordinates were kept secret on the evening of 07/20/1969(and thereafter) because these coordinates had military applications in terms of their providing, by way of LRRR/moon ranging, theretofore unknown transoceanic distance measurements, then unless we can come up with a good reason to say they are off target, it makes more than a little sense to accept what the professors are telling us as true and move on.
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[Citation needed]

The professors are telling us no such thing. That's down to your overcooked imagination. Where exactly are they telling us that the coordinates were kept secret?
 
Patrick1000 said:
Won't be able to post much soon?/QUOTE]

Too much school work? You do realize that nobody here believes you or takes you seriously. Why are you doing this? If you think that you are impressing us,think again. You are still entertaining,but my hand is hovering over the ignore button.
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drewid said:
[Citation needed]

The professors are telling us no such thing. That's down to your overcooked imagination. Where exactly are they telling us that the coordinates were kept secret?
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Bearing in mind that the latest best estimate coordinates are being broadcast live over radio.
 
Patrick1000 said:
That hardly invalidates Professor Wampler's point about the LRRR moon ranging's providing useful distance information for ICBM targeting. A Minuteman II missile of late sixties vintage does indeed have an electronic autopilot and inertial guidance, but that doesn't mean one can get by without knowing the precise distance from its midwest silo to Moscow.

Your point is irrelevant. We all know the ICBMS had inertial guidance. So supposedly did the Apollo crafts. Doesn't mean you don't need to know how far you're going.

These are not cruise missiles "reading maps", they are 1960s vintage electronic auto piloted, inertial guidance based rockets that need distance numbers in their programming.

Again, I would suggest the talented staff at Lick Observatory; Professors Miller, Wampler and Robinson know a bit more than we do here in this forum. If they are telling us that the Tranquility Base coordinates were kept secret on the evening of 07/20/1969(and thereafter) because these coordinates had military applications in terms of their providing, by way of LRRR/moon ranging, theretofore unknown transoceanic distance measurements, then unless we can come up with a good reason to say they are off target, it makes more than a little sense to accept what the professors are telling us as true and move on.

It strikes me as more than ridiculous to challenge Professor Wampler on this issue, especially knowing what we all know about ICBMS of that era. They were not cruise missiles, distance data was critical in their effective targeting.
Click to expand...

We didn't have to go to the moon to know where Moscow is.
 
Not a math whiz here, but just one question.

To do the trig problem that P1K describes, wouldn't one need to be able to "see" the Tranquility Base LRR from both Red Square and the launch silo at the same time? And shoot lasers from each simultaneously? The Moon's distance from these sites varies over time due to it's slightly eccentric orbit and inclination.

Maybe there's a simple answer that I'm missing here...
 
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