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Merged Libya: People's Revolution / Criminal Imperialism?

RandFan said:
Could you pull quote the relevant data?
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If that's what was said, it's interesting. LGR, I am digging your thoughts here. Personally, I lean towards rebel victims, not NATO ones, from their intactness. I've seen the aftermath of Majer, and those bodies often wind up in many sad little pieces. They're all still, lined up, not all over, so at least bound, quite likely already dead. Se;f-described eyewitnesses, obviously, aren't always witnesses to damn thing except a suggestion of what to say to the media and rights groups to help give this story the right spin.

I asked earlier for help with old info, but apparently everyone sensed the trap, so I'll just spring it myself.

Gaddafi, or his thugs anyway, are known to order people burned alive right before protesters/FFs overrun their positions. This was illustrated at least one before, in Benghazi, Feb 21.

The video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92lmKpNMOvI&feature=player_embedded
User Ibnomar, who posted it, explained there: "Footage of burned soldiers Gaddafi had killed because they would not commit the brutality commanded to them"
An article adds
Five charred bodies were found Monday in military barracks in Benghazi, the second-largest city in Libya and a stronghold of anti-Gaddafi protesters. According to one of our Observers, the bodies were those of soldiers savagely massacred for refusing orders to fire against Libyan civilians protesting in the African nation.
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This time, there is at least the one eyewitness, but back then the question begs an answer: how do they know why these guys were burned? What, a memo left on the wall explained it? And how did they know they were alive when burned? They weren't there, were they?

First: I'm not sure if the base cited, "the Al-Fudhail bin Omar base" is the same as the Katiba I've spoken of, but by context clues I think it is. Either way, the one is question was overrun on the 20th like the Katiba, which suffered much looting and arson aside from revnnge slayings. Only Abdel Fateh Younis, by defecting, was able to get the rest of those soldiers out safely.

So the next day we see five charred soldiers. And that "psychic" guess by their rebel finders. The world reported it pretty credulously, didn't they? They didn't say it was fact, just reported, the the regime did this. It came across as probably true, somehow.

Not so clear now, is it? No, not really in either direction yet.

But it gets clearer. Please recall we have five charred corpses in a military barracks (perhaps "the" barracks, the Katiba), martyrs for freedom shown proudly by their admirers, on February 21. We have the word they were soldiers at all, no clothes are discernable, let alone race. And then please consider this finding of the UN fact-finding mission to Libya [PDF link], which commenced well after bombing had started and everyone already decided it was too late to turn back.
4. Violations committed by opposition groups
206. The Commission received several accounts of attacks on migrant workers carried out by armed opposition groups. […] Another case reported to the Commission related to the extra-judicial killing of five Chadian nationals who had been arrested on the basis of their nationality, and taken to the military barracks in Benghazi. Dozens of armed persons either in military style or civilian clothing were said to have poured kerosene on their bodies and burned them to death on 21 February.
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Okay, any takers for coincidence?

Otherwise, damage control on rebel credibility regarding charred bodies, then or now?
 
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And, now that we've been reminded of the horrible racist lynch mob aspect of the Libyan rebels,

... and that I find a majority of the 34 victims of alleged Gaddafi thug execution found "near Qala'a" (didn't even hear about this one, did you?) were black men, most of them in the typical "alleged mercenary" clothing of rebel victims. Also, they weren't dumped at Qala'a, but at a tree farm just outside Qawalish. And just outside Qawalish is where a likely rebel dump of six gov't soldiers was made. One was beheaded, and they were floating in a water basin, found by C,J, Chivers about July 10. BOTH of these were blamed, by rebels in the Nafusag theater Gaddafi crimes. :(

... another rough spot in the emerging Tripoli massacres: Abu Salim trauma "hospital"
This is horrific stuff I just analyzed, and just bizarre. The old staff "ran away." The new rebel staff is seven strong, and don't seem terribly rushed even. They say up to 150 dead are in here. It's segregated. Black patients along one wall (one is delirious, dying of abdominal injuries, has a full colostomy bag), Arabs elsewhere. A room full of at least a dozen dead look to be all black. Nineteen bodies were just dumped outside, mostly black it looks like.

Among the Arab patients, a rebel fighter I think, a loyalist fighter missing his right arm and all hope, looks like. (Yay!!!!) And a boy...
We discussed here before the Misrata children sniper evidence. It's verifiably insane - a single clearly fake X-ray film used to show two different children had been shot in the chest, but survived fine, on Gaddafi's order fer sure.

And here is another boy, older than the others, maybe even 14, who is recovering fine, with full flexibility and everything, after having a bullet removed from his chest. He flashes the rebel "V" and pumps his fist for the camera, while eyeballing parties off camera, as if to say "am I doing this right?" No X-ray is shown, but I may already have a copy of it. Two in fact.

Surely he was at home, in the Abu Salim area, supporting the uprising in his heart only and doing nothing when shot, proving the kind of kids you read about in Misrata and Benghazi proliferate and get shot all over Libya, even in the supposed "holdout" neighborhoods of Tripoli.

Misery loves company is maybe why I type all this out for you guys. Sorry about that.
 
So ...

Pardalis said:
I suppose this didn't happen either.

The charred skeletons of more than 50 people have been found in a farm outbuilding in Khalet al Forjan, just outside a military camp near the Libyan capital Tripoli.


Denial denial...
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What didn't happen? Oh that? Well I'm certainly questioning it. I deny that it would be sound to simply trust their story.

Aside from a witness list even Craig and Aldo could match, from a pool of activists with a long track record of creative moral bookkeeping, we have a repeat of the rebels' Feb 21 Chadian worker roast, but on a whole different scale and in the NEW rebel capitol. It's almost like a friggin fire ceremony or sacrifice they do every time they take a capitol city.

Humanitarian war? Really?
 
Caustic Logic said:
I must have missed that indeed. Firing on, hitting, what? Is this video still viewable, or is it just too late for the slow among us? Can ANYONE show me this, since the Funk doesn't like to help people?)
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I told you. It's not our fault if your sources are guff and you came late to the party.

Explain to us again how the Arab league are in cahoots with the Imperialists. Or how you manage to tell nationalities by looking at someones skin colour.

Why don't you spell out who you would say were credible sources?
 
Caustic Logic said:
... another rough spot in the emerging Tripoli massacres: Abu Salim trauma "hospital"
This is horrific stuff I just analyzed, and just bizarre. The old staff "ran away." The new rebel staff is seven strong, and don't seem terribly rushed even. They say up to 150 dead are in here. It's segregated. Black patients along one wall (one is delirious, dying of abdominal injuries, has a full colostomy bag), Arabs elsewhere. A room full of at least a dozen dead look to be all black. Nineteen bodies were just dumped outside, mostly black it looks like.

Among the Arab patients, a rebel fighter I think, a loyalist fighter missing his right arm and all hope, looks like. (Yay!!!!) And a boy...
We discussed here before the Misrata children sniper evidence. It's verifiably insane - a single clearly fake X-ray film used to show two different children had been shot in the chest, but survived fine, on Gaddafi's order fer sure.
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You did not analyze anything, you just speculated and made stuff up. Rarely have I seen such biased nonsense.
 
funk de fino said:
I told you. It's not our fault if your sources are guff and you came late to the party.

Explain to us again how the Arab league are in cahoots with the Imperialists. Or how you manage to tell nationalities by looking at someones skin colour.

Why don't you spell out who you would say were credible sources?
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Enough of the Arab League (GCC mostly) to win a hasty vote at a metting not fully attended is APPARENTLY in cahoots enough to vote "no-fly." Saudi Arabia has a gripe they were told Gaddafi wanted to kill Abdullah. The Lebanese, who put the vote up, told Gaddafi killed one of their revered Shiite clerics. Qatar, they just saw $$ signs I think, and gave much support, on the airwaves, in the bank, in diplomacy, on the seas (shipping oil), in the skies (bombing or at least helping, not certain).

Also, having them involved was thought to make it look, to idiots, like it couldn't possibly be driven by ulterior motives. Not with A-RABS involved against a revered Muslim leader like Gaddafi!

And we have no friggin' idea if they thought "no-fly" might lead to bombing of Muslims. They sure acted surprised. tell me again how you know they actually were?

UN fact finding mission "guff," "made up CT nonsense." Pale in comparison to African-worker-torching rebels who tell us their enemies are to blame.

You've been annoying me for a while now with your "contributions." Ho ho, I see you are exactly the same! No point, too cute. Ta ta.
 
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Caustic Logic said:
Enough of the Arab League (GCC mostly) to win a hasty vote at a metting not fully attended is APPARENT:Y in cahoots enough to vote "no-fly." We have no friggin idea if they thought it might lead to bombing of Muslims. They sure acted surprised. tell me again how you know they actually were?

How about mercenaries and skin color?

UN fact finding mission "guff," "made up CT nonsense." Pale in comparison to African-worker-torching rebels who tell us their enemies are to blame.

You've been annoying me for a while now with your "contributions." Ho ho, I see you are exactly the same! No point, too cute. Ta ta.
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Gettin called on nonsense can be a bummer! ho ho, tata! :D
 
RandFan said:
Thanks. So there is only one possible explanation to account for the claims? Given the proposition, any atrocity on the part of any rebels proves... I'm sorry, what?
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No, there are different possibilities.

1) Gaddafi troops burned these five soldiers, and the five Chadians the rebels torched alive were in a different barracks (both stories true, coincidence)
2) The story about burning Chadian workers was wrong, maybe a lie seeded to cover for the regime's crime there and blame the rebels
3) The rebels' story of finding the bodies and knowing just why they were killed was wrong somehow, perhaps a lie to cover their killing of five workers, as well as to demonize the regime they intended to slaughter as much as possible
4) Both stories are false, and these are some other group, like soldiers killed by the rebels with fire on accident, or as I've heard suggested, a group of kids who "went missing" shortly before, and were presumably taken by Gaddafi to the base and burned alive just for yuks.

Did I miss any? Which would you go with?

Any atrocity that's actually committed by the rebels would show they're not the kind of people you should be inviting to invade city after city. But we did, and in each town, they find "Gaddafi massacres." 34 + 6 so far around Qawalish, 150 or so at purged Tawergha, now at least 400 across Tripoli...

Why is it clear, as the media's been making it seem, that these really are Gaddafi's crimes and thank God we interrupted them?
 
trustbutverify said:
Gettin called on nonsense can be a bummer! ho ho, tata! :D
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Hey trusty, do YOU believe the account taken down by the UN commission was a lie? Or a coincidence? Or are the rebels a bit less than truthful about the charred bodies they "just found" killed by the evull regime?

"They ran away like rats and then we came along and found these bodies. They burned them. We cannot say they are Muslims. They do not belong to any religion in the world."
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http://www.news.com.au/breaking-new...found-in-tripoli/story-e6frfku0-1226123709811

PS did anyone notice the first part of the Channel 4 video, with the black "Gaddafi fighters" who weren't, but only survived because the camera crew wouldn't leave as the rebels asked? Then they find charred bodies... as Mr. Thomson said, it's a bad time to be a black man in Tripoli, now that the humanitarian war has brought the lynch mobs there.
 
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Caustic Logic said:
Did I miss any? Which would you go with?
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Yes. Need more information and confirmation.

Any atrocity that's actually committed by the rebels would show they're not the kind of people you should be inviting to invade city after city.
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It would show that some people are sociopaths.

Why is it clear, as the media's been making it seem, that these really are Gaddafi's crimes and thank God we interrupted them?
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Attrocity is unfortunate. I don't know of a revolution that didn't have atrocity. Che, Castro, Mao, Bolshevik revolution, etc., etc. It doesn't make it right. It damn sure makes me wish we didn't have autocrats in the first place. This is what happens when you are a monster and oppress people. At some point they get fed up. Like I said, if this was a war crime it's wrong, I can't condone it.
 
Oh, I forgot the events of South Africa leading up to the end of Apartheid. Many, many atrocities on both sides. I can't condone any of them. I'm willing to say they are wrong. It doesn't make Gaddafi innocent or good by comparison. If it did happen it doesn't indict all of the rebels or their cause.
 
RandFan said:
Yes. Need more information and confirmation.
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was hoping for a specific logical possibility so we can get towards your best guess among them.

It would show that some people are sociopaths.
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And it's the people we've been inviting into Libyan cities for months now, by destroying the forces protecting the cities from them.

Attrocity is unfortunate. I don't know of a revolution that didn't have atrocity. Che, Castro, Mao, Bolshevik revolution, etc., etc. It doesn't make it right. It damn sure makes me wish we didn't have autocrats in the first place. This is what happens when you are a monster and oppress people. At some point they get fed up. Like I said, if this was a war crime it's wrong, I can't condone it.
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Wow, all the Pinochets, Shah Pahlavis, [Contra leader], Abdel-Jalils, various right-wing CIA-backed revolutionaries get lumped into the etceteras. Bias noted.

One lesson the world's autocrats will learn from this is don't be weak. You need to be strong enough to outlast NATO, ready to shut down revolutions before they seize any territory, emergency funds to outlast freezes and sanctions, etc. Most autocrat countries aren't as easy targets as 6 million Libya. And the lessons learned for the rest of them, priceless.
 
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Caustic Logic said:
Wow, all the Pinochets, Shah Pahlavis, [Contra leader], Abdel-Jalils, various right-wing CIA-backed revolutionaries get lumped into the etceteras. Bias noted.
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How on earth does that change my point? I chose them precisely because they force you to face a fact.
 
RandFan said:
How on earth does that change my point? I chose them precisely because they force you to face a fact.
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It doesn't, and bias is nothing we don't all have. I just felt like noting it. Sorry if it seemed a bigger deal than I meant.

I'll check that link later. Things rebel affiliated people open their mouths and say have a poor track record for logic and truth, but I'll keep an open mind. In particular, forcing children to kill rebels sounds, well, inefficient on the one hand, but conveniently evil and twisted on the other, so I'm sure it's probably true (as in, it will be believed by nearly everyone).

So ... how many logical possibilities for the February skeletons are there, and which seem most likely to you? Story A, rebel version, story B, that told to the commission.
A + B true, coincidence
A true, B untrue
B true, A untrue
A + B both untrue

And maybe your thoughts on the little details that puts it all together into a logically coherent narrative. If you're waiting for more information, it may never come. We have to work with what there is to explain (best guess) how five charred bodies were found in that base on Feb 21.

Same challenge to others - anyone can answer it, if they feel up to it.

Or are we to leap around accusation-to-accusation, avoiding specifics as much as possible, like Funk de Fino, Pardalis, Skeptic, Virus, etc?
 
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