Merged Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

Anyway, now Megrahi is in a coma, I wonder if the bloodhounds will be happy?

I listened to Jim Swire on the BBC news today. He said if he was younger and still in medical practice, he would be prefectly happy to go to Libya and take care of Megrahi.

I lack Dr.Swire's integrity. I would not go so far. Megrahi evidently worked for Gadaffi; He very likely hasn't always been a very nice person. He was probably up to no good that day, in one way or another. That doesn't make the conviction any safer.
That seems to be the point.
If people are paid good loot to do something right, they should do it right, honestly and by the evidence. True for scientists, engineers, vets, lawyers, everybody.
 
My fear is that the Lockerbie deaths will be dwarfed by what has been happening in Libya over recent months; I don't think we've seen the full horror of it yet.
 
Soapy, I've come to the conclusion that the meme that Megrahi was probably up to no good that day is completely unfounded. Whether he's a nice person or not I have no idea, but I would not refuse to go to the aid of any dying man just because I thought he wasn't a very nice guy. Jim Swire has of course met Megrahi and is thus in a better position to judge that part.

Ironically, it was Bunntamas who brought me to the realisation that the comforting fall-back position that Megrahi was "obviously up to something that day" was not supported by any evidence. Likewise, he was Libyan and it was 1988. "Working for Gadaffi"? Probably. But in what capacity? There is absolutely nothing in his past linking him to any of the atrocities of the Gadaffi regime, or to any other terrorist acts, or even to anything criminal beyond smuggling goods past the UN sanctions.

He says he was merely minding his own very mundane business that day, and there is no evidence at all to contradict that. If he so much as stepped in a crack in the pavement, the entire UK and FBI investigation dedicated to pinning :rule10 on him failed to spot it. Sure, he had two passports, one in another name to allow him to get on with that smuggling without being identified as a LAA employee. He says he simply picked up the one that came to hand, even though he shouldn't have, and his wife gave him hell for it later.

Sounds suspicious? Let me introduce you to the provenance of the single most important piece of evidence in the entire case. It sounds as suspicious as hell. But it's actually completely on the level. Compared to the bizarre story of Bogomira Erac's ghoulish little souvenir, Megrahi picking up the wrong passport is as natural as leaving your wallet in your other trousers.

I have no idea if he's a nice guy or not. Lot's of guys aren't. But few of them get locked up for over ten years for a crime they didn't commit, and then find themselves monstered on their deathbed, on account of that.

Rolfe.
 
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I've heard anecdotal evidence can be unreliable, but that one surely sets a new standard. Conversations an Italian model had with one of Gadaffi's sons? Oh well, say no more!

I don't know if Gadaffi was behind it or not. Saif says not, for what that's worth (not a lot). However, that isn't the point. If Gadaffi was behind it, he did not do it by sending Abdelbaset al-Megrahi to levitate an invisible suitcase on to a plane at Malta.

Rolfe.

It's certainly not admissable in a court of law. It's only hearsay.
 
My fear is that the Lockerbie deaths will be dwarfed by what has been happening in Libya over recent months; I don't think we've seen the full horror of it yet.


The Lockerbie deaths were dwarfed long ago by the deaths in Libya caused by the UN sanctions in place in the 1990s.

After the indictments were issued against Megrahi and Fhimah in 1991, Gadaffi was ordered to hand over the suspects for trial. However, Libya has no extradition treaty and does not extradite its subjects. Libya offered to try the suspects on home ground, if the accusers would pony up the evidence.

Funnily enough, that was laughed at, and no evidence was produced. However, the legal fact remains that Gadaffi and Libya were entirely within their rights to do that. Stalemate.

Britain and the USA went to the UN, without any evidence, and simply stated they had conclusive proof that Megrahi and Fhimah were guilty. The UN politely accepted this assertion and slapped punitive sanctions on Libya, far more extensive than the Yvonne Fletcher-related sanctions Megrahi had been circumventing. The resulting shortages of essentials, especially medical supplies, are said to have led to thousands of innocent deaths.

After eight years of this, Libya was really hurting. This was the reason Megrahi and Fhimah voluntarily agreed to surrender themselves for trial at Zeist. It worked, and the sanctions were lifted. And by the way, this is why Megrahi was regarded as a hero in Libya, and got a conspicuous welcome on his return. At the time, I remarked, "at least they're waving the flags, not burning them...."

Rolfe.
 
It seems the leaders of the Libyan Rebellion have said they won't be handing over any of their citizens to any foreign governments.

It will be interesting to see if they hold to that.

One comment I keep hearing on Auntie Beeb is the expression of surprise that no "charismatic figure" has yet emerged to "take over".
Perhaps the rebels have had a bellyful of charisma.

The commonest chant I heard from the young men with guns was "Allahu Akbar!" and I suppose a large element of the rebels will be the local equivalent of the American Christian Right. Now also supplied with NRA level supplies of ammo.

I wonder how enthusiastically we will embrace the new Libyan Gummint when it finally gets up and running?
 
I think Megrahi is moot. Whether he's quite as ill as the CNN report implies may be open to speculation, but Alex Salmond is quite right. He is quite clearly dying of cancer, he has not breached any of the conditions of his release, and there is no reason at all to consider recalling him. If he was ill enough to be eligible for compassionate release two years ago (which he was), his present condition is a no-brainer in that respect.

The other issue is the guy accused of the murder of Yvonne Fletcher. If the new government wasn't to have any credibility with the general population at all, I suspect it would be very well advised to refuse to hand him over. After the kangaroo court that convicted Megrahi, how could anyone have any confidence of a fair trial in another case? And even the evil Gadaffi didn't hand over Megrahi. He protected him for eight years, until Megrahi voluntarily surrendered himself for trial. Do they really want to look worse than that?

Rolfe.
 
I wonder how enthusiastically we will embrace the new Libyan Gummint when it finally gets up and running?


I'll guess that will come down to who gets the 'post-Gadaffi' contracts to get the place up and running again.

I think Fhimah said an interesting thing in his Expressen interview. I'll paraphrase, but he seems to have no idea who connected him to the bomb plot. I've been under the impression that this was Madjid Giaka, a witness so preposterous that even the Zeist judges told him, politely I'm sure, to eff off. I'm surprised Fhimah is unaware of this.

It seems to me, that it was Madjid Giaka's testimony that was the 'smoking gun' that convinced the USA and UK to indict Fhimah and his friend, Megrahi.

Gauci's evidence was by-the-by until Giaka was outed, in court, as a fantasist.

Luckily for the prosecution, they managed to hide the absolute unreliability of Gauci's evidence from the court enabling the judges to think of him as credible.

I could be wrong, but it's the Gauci evidence ( ie how it was obtained, the many ways it was contradictory ) that the SCCRC have focussed upon as adding up to Mr Megrahi not receiving a fair trial.



CTB
 
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You are completely wrong.

It was the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission.

And they glossed over more flaws than they highlighted.

Rolfe.

48 grounds were sumbitted by Megrahi to the SCCRC. Out of those only FOUR were accepted as a POSSIBLE miscariage of Justice. They spent two plus years on that review, including 16 volumes and thousands upon thousands of pages of submissions, not to mention world wide investigations and 15,000 statements. Yet they and only came up with FOUR grounds on which the SCCRC found that a miscarriage of justice MAY (not did, MAY) have occurred.

And that was four years ago. Wonder how this will all play out, now that the Gaddafi regime has fallen and there is so much more REAL EVIDENCE available from former Libyan regime defectors, which was not available then. Doubt the Scots will be willing to spend millions again on a revisit to the SCCRC. Wonder where that money came from in the first place. BP and Blair come to mind. And any further SCCRC investigation brings to mind pigs flying.

Then again, there's always Swire, possibly coughing up "blood money" that he gladly took from the PA103 victims / Libya settlement. Do tell, what is the exact definition of hypocrite? And then there's the Megrahi family opportunity for an appeal. Wonder how much of that Gadaffi money spent on Megrahi's posh prison accommodations, including catered meals, satelite television, internet and phone access (to news reporters), etc. will be spent on any appeal, if / when Megrahi finally croaks, and is no longer an hindrance around spilling secrets about how he planted the bomb. Face it. He did it, Gaddafi paid for him to keep his mouth shut, and Gadaffi is all to happy to see Megrahi dead. As soon as the heat and separation from Gadaffi happened, Megrahi is on his own. Left to die in the palatial estate that Gadaffi paid for. HELLO???? IMHO, I hope they both rot in hell and pay for all the murders for which they are responsible. Being dropped from an airliner onto the Libyan desert where video of buzzards eating every last remains of them for the entire world to witness would be far too kind. WIth the exception to the buzzards, who would not have drugs available to them, nor satellite TV to to recover from the disgusting and lethal matter they ingested, nor observance of their lives played out on the media, nor palatial estates in which to be released in their dying days, nor any family to be near them in said palatial estate whlst they die - that would truly be sad.

That said, once again, on a revisit to the SCCRC, brings to mind pigs flying, but with the added emphasis of said pigs springing from the orrifice of a dead mass murderer and his master's butts, over the dead bodies of BP, Tony Blair, the UK pimps and their Scottish whores; Kenny MacAskill, et. al.. what's her name? The one with the hair that looks like rabid squirrels as well as her supporters (aka more whores) have been nesting in it for far too long for even more pathetic reasons aka nothing else to do with their lives? :D

Oh yes, and let us not forget the conspiracy theorists here, who have done so much toward progress of the LIbyans and Megrahi over the years in their pathetic rants and wastes of time, when they have absolutely no real personal connection to this travesty, outside of nothing else better to do with their lives / time . How's that workin' out for ya? Hmm???.
~B
 
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I think Megrahi is moot. Whether he's quite as ill as the CNN report implies may be open to speculation, but Alex Salmond is quite right. He is quite clearly dying of cancer, he has not breached any of the conditions of his release, and there is no reason at all to consider recalling him. If he was ill enough to be eligible for compassionate release two years ago (which he was), his present condition is a no-brainer in that respect.

The other issue is the guy accused of the murder of Yvonne Fletcher. If the new government wasn't to have any credibility with the general population at all, I suspect it would be very well advised to refuse to hand him over. After the kangaroo court that convicted Megrahi, how could anyone have any confidence of a fair trial in another case? And even the evil Gadaffi didn't hand over Megrahi. He protected him for eight years, until Megrahi voluntarily surrendered himself for trial. Do they really want to look worse than that?

Rolfe.

I really don't know if Megrahi played a part in this crime or not. You seem to have read a lot about it and you say he had nothing to do with it, so I guess he didn't. But I must say it would be hilarious if it turned out he did.
 
It seems the leaders of the Libyan Rebellion have said they won't be handing over any of their citizens to any foreign governments.

It will be interesting to see if they hold to that.

One comment I keep hearing on Auntie Beeb is the expression of surprise that no "charismatic figure" has yet emerged to "take over".
Perhaps the rebels have had a bellyful of charisma.

The commonest chant I heard from the young men with guns was "Allahu Akbar!" and I suppose a large element of the rebels will be the local equivalent of the American Christian Right. Now also supplied with NRA level supplies of ammo.

I wonder how enthusiastically we will embrace the new Libyan Gummint when it finally gets up and running?


I am guessing most of the fighters have different values from the NTC. Perhaps the NTC will be able to maintain authority and leadership or perhaps that more radical elements will emerge from amongst the fighters.

However, this was the sentiment in 2009

The al-Qaeda leader addressed President Qaddafi and his new pro-Western alignment: “You killed, imprisoned, and tortured the youth and elders of Islam in obedience to the United States and in support for its Christian banner, as well as its Crusade. The flags of the United States are flying in the sky of Tripoli, where you buried in the darkness of its unjust prisons the people of faith, monotheism, and righteousness.”

Abu Yahya went on to promise that the mujahideen will take revenge on Qaddafi. How? He explained that “the soldiers of jihad are getting near you, after having their words unified, their forces assembled, their hearts combined, and their banner raised in the Islamic Maghreb, in order to take revenge on you and those who are like you.”

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no...Pid]=7&cHash=d73532f301a31756f0ed8cc5d59ecb1f

Let's just say I don't think such ideas have been made any weaker or more marginalised in Libya over the last 6 months.
 
48 grounds were sumbitted by Megrahi to the SCCRC. Out of those only FOUR were accepted as a POSSIBLE miscariage of Justice. They spent two plus years on that review, including 16 volumes and thousands upon thousands of pages of submissions, not to mention world wide investigations and 15,000 statements. Yet they and only came up with FOUR grounds on which the SCCRC found that a miscarriage of justice MAY (not did, MAY) have occurred.

I'm sorry, but your position here is unclear. You concede that SCCRC identified a number of potential grounds for a miscarriage of justice but seem do suggest that four is an insufficiently large number notwithstanding the fact that - logically - all it takes is one in order to ensure that the judgement was flawed.

Moreover you confirm that the SCCRC spent some considerable time on the review, including 15,000 statements, which in turn might lead one to reasonably conclude that such a decision was well-supported.

And that was four years ago. Wonder how this will all play out, now that the Gaddafi regime has fallen and there is so much more REAL EVIDENCE available from former Libyan regime defectors, which was not available then. Doubt the Scots will be willing to spend millions again on a revisit to the SCCRC.

Do you have links to any such "real" evidence or is this just idle speculation?

Wonder where that money came from in the first place. BP and Blair come to mind. And any further SCCRC investigation brings to mind pigs flying.

It has been explained to you before, several times, that the SNP administration in Scotland is diametrically opposed to Westminster (inasmuch as it is pushing for independence, amongst other things) and has nothing to gain from supporting any deal betwixt Blair, BP, and Libya. Nevertheless you continue to chant this mantra as if it were some form of smoking gun and I for one would really like to know what kind of evidence you have for such a claim, inasmuch as the investigative press in the UK have been searching in earnest for some considerable time now without success.

Then again, there's always Swire, possibly coughing up "blood money" that he gladly took from the PA103 victims / Libya settlement.

Nothing like an ad-hom attack to kick off a sceptical discussion, eh?

Do tell, what is the exact definition of hypocrite? And then there's the Megrahi family opportunity for an appeal. Wonder how much of that Gadaffi money spent on Megrahi's posh prison accommodations, including catered meals, satelite television, internet and phone access (to news reporters), etc. will be spent on any appeal, if / when Megrahi finally croaks, and is no longer an hindrance around spilling secrets about how he planted the bomb. Face it. He did it, Gaddafi paid for him to keep his mouth shut, and Gadaffi is all to happy to see Megrahi dead. As soon as the heat and separation from Gadaffi happened, Megrahi is on his own. Left to die in the palatial estate that Gadaffi paid for.

I can't speak for your country, but in ours the hospitals all seem to have catered meals, television, internet, and telephone access. I assume, therefore, that your objection is that Megrahi should be incarcerated in the very strictest of gaol conditions without access to such facilities notwithstanding that he is very clearly near death.

It's a view. I don't agree with it, inasmuch as I believe that such a lack of compassion reflects poorly on our own humanity, but many of your countrymen seem to take the same view.

HELLO???? IMHO, I hope they both rot in hell and pay for all the murders for which they are responsible. Being dropped from an airliner onto the Libyan desert where video of buzzards eating every last remains of them for the entire world to witness would be far too kind.

And yet you concede that the SCCRC identified four substantive reasons to believe that a miscarriage of justice may have occurred. You seem quite happy to condem (literally) a man to death despite concerns regarding the integrity of the evidence against him.

Do you have a plan to bring him back from the dead if and when it turns out that you're wrong?

WIth the exception to the buzzards, who would not have drugs available to them, nor satellite TV to to recover from the disgusting and lethal matter they ingested, nor observance of their lives played out on the media, nor palatial estates in which to be released in their dying days, nor any family to be near them in said palatial estate whlst they die - that would truly be sad.

Aye, whatever.

That said, once again, on a revisit to the SCCRC, brings to mind pigs flying, but with the added emphasis of said pigs springing from the orrifice of a dead mass murderer and his master's butts, over the dead bodies of BP, Tony Blair, the UK pimps and their Scottish whores; Kenny MacAskill, et. al.. what's her name? The one with the hair that looks like rabid squirrels as well as her supporters (aka more whores) have been nesting in it for far too long for even more pathetic reasons aka nothing else to do with their lives? :D

You realise that this kind of unsubstantiated rabid rant does not reflect at all well on you or the integrity of your arguments, yes?

Oh yes, and let us not forget the conspiracy theorists here, who have done so much toward progress of the LIbyans and Megrahi over the years in their pathetic rants and wastes of time, when they have absolutely no real personal connection to this travesty, outside of nothing else better to do with their lives / time . How's that workin' out for ya? Hmm???.

Some considerable time ago, Rolfe and others posted an extensive series of detailed posts which set out the concerns regarding the safety (or otherwise) of the Megrahi conviction. This included cross-reference to evidencial sources, legal testimony, and the views of various learned observers to the trial. You refused point-blank to respond to these issues, instead placing wholesale weight on the guilty convinction itself.

As far as I can see nothing has changed; you arrive, hurl around ill-considered insults whilst overlooking any evidence, then stomp off in the huff for a couple of months. I therefore have to ask myself what you think you're achieving, other than further tormenting yourself? Whilst the personal circumstances that brought you to this stage are harrowing, you're only doing yourself harm and - no matter how hard it is - you need to take a step back.
 
As far as I can see nothing has changed; you arrive, hurl around ill-considered insults whilst overlooking any evidence, then stomp off in the huff for a couple of months. I therefore have to ask myself what you think you're achieving, other than further tormenting yourself? Whilst the personal circumstances that brought you to this stage are harrowing, you're only doing yourself harm and - no matter how hard it is - you need to take a step back.

Sound advice I think.
 
Thank you for responding to Bunntamas, Architect. I felt dirty just reading that.

As you say, one single ground of appeal identified by the SCCRC is the holy grail sought by prisoners hoping for an appeal. Bunntamas is wrong by the way. They didn't identify four in Megrahi's case, they identified six.

Indeed, the defence threw everything and the kitchen sink into the mix, including some ideas that didn't have solid evidential back-up. The SCCRC were hardly going to find forty-something grounds of appeal, whatever! Having six come up trumps is a result, in spades. As Architect says, one would have been enough.

And of course the SCCRC is not going to announce that a miscarriage of justice DID occur. That's not its role, and it has no right at all to say that. It is entirely up to the appeal court to decide whether MAY becomes DID.

And it may yet do that.

Rolfe.
 
If there's anything hilarious about this, which is pretty debatable, it's that one of the leaders of the Libyan rebels appears to be called Ahmed Jibril!

Rolfe.
 
It is entirely up to the appeal court to decide whether MAY becomes DID.

And it may yet do that.

Really? Do you think there's any likelihood of this case reaching a court again? I kind of thought that was a lost cause with Megrahi being out of jail (and soon to be deceased). I would imagine that certain people would prefer it not to see the light of legal scrutiny.
 
Can I just say thank you very much, Rolfe, for making such a convincing case for a miscarriage of justice regarding Megrahi that I find myself shouting at the TV on a daily basis now when news reports refer to "knowledge of who ordered the attack dying with him" and so on. :p


You know, all this stampede to interview Megrahi and find out "what he knows" is completely bonkers. Even if he was quite well, it would be bonkers.

Megrahi has been steadfastly and consistently asserting his complete innocence for almost 20 years. For over ten of these years he was in Scottish custody. Why would anyone imagine he's suddenly going to change his position at this stage?

One of the things I found distasteful about the rhetoric emerging from the US in recent weeks was the suggestion that Megrahi should be transported to the USA and questioned further about the atrocity. They didn't actually say they were going to waterboard him, but the subtext was suggestive.

Right at the moment, Americans make me sick. Sorry to all the decent Americans on this forum and elsewhere.

Rolfe.
 
Really? Do you think there's any likelihood of this case reaching a court again? I kind of thought that was a lost cause with Megrahi being out of jail (and soon to be deceased). I would imagine that certain people would prefer it not to see the light of legal scrutiny.


It was almost certainly impossible to get another appeal off the ground while Megrahi was alive. That situation still applies as far as I know. However, after his death it is open to any interested party to apply to the court for a new appeal. Interested parties are currently forming an orderly queue.

There are legal obstacles to this, but they are not insurmountable, and "certain people" do not always get everything they want.

Rolfe.
 

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