Merged Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

Fantasy island

Kenny Macaskill and the SNP doing something at the behest of Blair & Brown?

Maybe in a bizarre parallel Universe where Sara Palin helps Obama.....

Laughable
 
You know, that Fox News piece, and the comments on Prof Black's blog by Michael, perfectly illustrate the way false beliefs can be upheld, contrary to many indisputable inquiries on the conviction itself, and is actually something that should be, in the end, pitied. If only Fox, or anyone who continually aligns themselves with such blatantly subjective reporting, could apply the same amount of effort, insight and scepticism to the original judgement and its irrational and unsound conclusions, then perhaps everyone, perhaps even the fervid, ever-angry and misinformer Frank Duggan, may find themselves more at ease with the doubters and their own positions. Give us a break eh Frank?

I mean come on, all the talk of an absent catheter or if his bed clothes aren't sufficiently creased is quite pathetic. As I said, pitiful really.

Even accepting the assertions made in the Fox report that a terminally ill man may not be quite on his 'death bed' (in the midst of civil war) as it might appear, what exactly is this assertion, were it true, meant to achieve or justify?

To assuage the feelings held by many, in spite of the doubts over the conviction, and that they are unable to counter or challenge? To reinforce long-held prejudices, and that if he is caught lying about how close to death he might be, then this merely shows that he is a liar = terrorist that bombed 103? That it demonstrates how he should be immediately dumped back into a prison cell because he is a liar and that, once again obviously, proves that the man is not to be trusted and he is terrorist who should rot in a cell?

The wiley ole 'Shep' then goes on to more critical areas of Megrahi's unsound conviction in the discussion on Fox: his release for nothing less than an oil deal between the UK, BP and Libya. Is it just a Fox thing where the entire crux of any discussion, not to mention the facts, are simply disregarded in order fit with the editorial and viewers preconceived opinions? Because that is exactly all they achieve in this piece. Perhaps I'm unfair to single out Fox on this, given much the same is parrotted on various US and UK media outlets, but a more skewed, and yet obviously detailed, report I find hard to recall.

They also appear to be quite determined to avoid any mention and thus implication of Tony Blair, dare I say darling to the right-wing warmongers, in any of the shenanigans involved in the deal in the desert with Gadaffi. Oil contracts in the Libyan fields that only emerged from the initial payment of compensation to the Pan Am relatives being made by the Libyan govt, which also allowed the lifting of sanctions opening up further lucrative possibilities that Sen McCain and Ms Rice were also quick to take advantage of under the Bush administration.

(Of course, what is always used as a backdrop, not only to our recent intervention in Libya and the fact that the Libyan govt were a bad lot, but as basis that 'Libya is bad', it should also be noted is that while the Libyan govt were apparently not only ordering the blowing up of airliners but also supplying arms to an assortment of terror groups, all the while the US and UK govt's were arming Saddam in Iraq and providing economic and military support to an aparteid regime in South Africa.)

As a side note to any discussions on the deal in the desert and Blair being unaware that judicial matters were not for the UK govt to determine, it must be remembered that when Blair met with Gadaffi for the 'deal in the desert', and the memo of understanding for Prisoner Transfers, it was not the SNP govt who were in charge of the Scottish parliament or would take decisions relating to the Scottish justice system. It was Labour under Jack McConnell. Say no more.

Of course, none of this is subjected to the same scrutiny as Fox's and Shep's view that clearly Scottish govt's false and corrupt reasoning for the compassionate release, while the UK govt and Gordon Brown sought to place pressure on the SNP while all the time smoothing the diplomatic road for the 'transfer' in the background. What the 'Scot's' had to gain from capitulation is not made clear - and any reference to any possible pressure from an on-going second appeal is not in-keeping with the 'Fox line', and is just as alien as is the merest suggestion of compassion for a terminally ill man.

As William Clifford claimed, perhaps demanding too stringent parameters, that any belief held on inadequate inquiry or insufficient evidence is wrong. Blind faith as he called it, and although his entire argument does face challenges, amended to the thought that were people are able to inquire, as they most certainly are with regards to the Megrahi conviction, then they ought to only hold beliefs supported by the evidence presented. Otherwise falsely held beliefs by some will have to be seen to be supported by other associated or unrelated received 'truths' which do nothing to address the fundamental and most critical values held up to be true.

Fox News and its viewers should need an apparent 'no spin zone' after that dizzying spin on the 'facts' on Megrahi. If only some other distantly Irish descendant loon could provide that…O'Really?

.
 
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Megrahi's family, for a start. His daughter has qualified as a lawyer, and was explicitly vowing to prove her father's innocence.

I also understand Jim Swire has expressed an interest in taking an appeal forward, and it seems he would also be considered an interested party.

Rolfe.

ETA: Bucrana, your link doesn't work. It's the most pernicious pack of lies I've heard in a long year, but if you want to hear it, try this.
http://video.foxnews.com/?playlist_...e-bomber-on-deathbed-again/?playlist_id=86857

As you said, if they would only expend a tenth of the effort they waste chasing rainbows in relation to the compassionate release, on examining the original verdict, we might get somewhere.
 
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As far as I can see nothing has changed; you arrive, hurl around ill-considered insults whilst overlooking any evidence, then stomp off in the huff for a couple of months. I therefore have to ask myself what you think you're achieving, other than further tormenting yourself? Whilst the personal circumstances that brought you to this stage are harrowing, you're only doing yourself harm and - no matter how hard it is - you need to take a step back.

Nicely said. Much more tactful than I would have been and I do not fancy anymore warnings replying to nonsense like that.
 
Megrahi's family, for a start. His daughter has qualified as a lawyer, and was explicitly vowing to prove her father's innocence.

I also understand Jim Swire has expressed an interest in taking an appeal forward, and it seems he would also be considered an interested party.

Rolfe.

ETA: Bucrana, your link doesn't work. It's the most pernicious pack of lies I've heard in a long year, but if you want to hear it, try this.
http://video.foxnews.com/?playlist_...e-bomber-on-deathbed-again/?playlist_id=86857

As you said, if they would only expend a tenth of the effort they waste chasing rainbows in relation to the compassionate release, on examining the original verdict, we might get somewhere.

Its like watching Jim Fetzer, Alex Jones or Dylan Avery. Unbelievable this channel is huge in the USA. Truly pathetic stuff.
 
You know, I was rereading some posts from those who have attacked people questioning Megrahi's guilt amidst claims that we've sold out to BP or whatever and I must admit to growing anger. It was not just the poor souls on the plane that were lost, but out fellow countrymen when the debris hit. Who can ever forget the pictures of Sherwood Crescent, or of hearing of the fates of the two families in the houses that the engine hit? The chances are that many of us in Scotland will know of someone in the emergency services personell who were called in to help with the recovery operation, and for the rest their harrowing stories have graced the pages of our national press more than once.

To suggest that our fellow countrymen are insufficiently motivated to ensure the continuing incarceration of the culprits for the attack frankly beggars belief, perhaps telling us more about the accuser than our own criminal justic system. When I speak to people, there seems to be a general recognition that the Camp Ziest verdict is far from satisfactory; at best Megrahi was one of many, at worst we have a scapegoat to allow Libya to escape yet more punitive sanctions.

The hand-waving away of evidence, the frankly bizarre accusations that the SNP administration somehow decided to assist a Westminster goverment it was diametrically opposed to, the viscious attacks on the likes of Jim Swire or Dr. Black would fail to make it as far as a witness box in this country, their integrity so clearly wanting as to lead us to question the motives of those who propound them.

Yes, we should find the culprits and do what we can to bring them to justice. I doubt it will ever happen, not least because of the damage it will cause to those in positions of power at the time on both sides of the Atlantic. Dirty money to witnesses with all the substance of tissue paper? Criticism by leading legal figures? It'll be buried.

Meanwhile the paid fools - Mr. Duggan and co - continue to believe that, if they speak loudly and confidently enough, their own version of the Truth will be accepted as much. Facts, analysis, and doubt can play no part and those of us in Scotland who dare to think differently can expect no quarter.

But I remember Sherwood Crescent. I remember the Henry, Sommerville, and Flannigan families. I remember hearing a friend talk of finding the body of a stewardess impacted in the earth in scrubland. I remember the outrage and sadness in our country. Anyone who tells me that I'm not interested in the truth, or an apologist for the Libyan regime, can get lost. I can think of at least one country that's been an apologist for those who shot down an unarmed passenger jet, and it's not mine. If you're here to debate the facts, then fine. If you're here to spout bile and conspiracy theory, no matter how heartfelt, then leave us alone. We've got more than enough to be going on with.
 
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I know what you mean. In the early days, I thought much more about the Lockerbie families than the people on the plane. The tragedy of the Flannigan boys in particular was one we all found heart-rending. Worse, the way it developed.

I remember driving past Sherwood Crescent, 48 hours after the crash, and the smell of the burning and the crater in the road. I was thinking about the people incinerated in their homes, more than about those poor souls who were still lying out on the cold fields.

Men from the village where I live now went to help with the search. The women prepared meals to be sent to Lockerbie to feed the rescuers. We were part of it too, even those of us lucky enough not to lose anyone.

Our criminal justice system and our various shades of government have been responsible for many outrages in connection with this atrocity. Releasing Megrahi just wasn't one of them.

Rolfe.
 
Just to respond to a point made by Bunntamas (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7522198&postcount=731):
The SCCRC found six, not four, grounds for believing that the Zeist verdict may have been a miscarriage of justice. They only published four, and one of these was not explained in any detail, though it is widely believed to refer to the payments made to the Gauci brothers.
The language in which these are couched ("may" rather than "did") reflects the fact that it is not the role of the SCCRC to say that a miscarriage of justice has occurred: that is the function of the court of appeal. It shows that the applicant has reasonable grounds for an appeal. The strength of those grounds can only be determined by actually examining them. One in particular stands out: the discovery by the Commission of new evidence, unavailable at the Zeist trial, (though it was out there if Harry Bell's team had got off their arses and looked for it) showing that the purchase at Mary's House took place before December 6th, 1988. This rules out Megrahi as the purchaser and brings down the whole house of cards that was the Crown's case.
 
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The Christmas lights. In his original statement, Tony said categorically that the Christmas lights were not yet up. However, he got less sure about that later. Maybe they were up. Are you sure? Er, they were putting the lights up, in those times. And so on. At one point he seemed to be saying that the Christmas lights were up when the police came to see him, but it's unclear whether that ever happened - the initial contact was made at the beginning of September.

It's the same thing as with the height and the age of the purchaser, and the rain.

Initial statement, the purchaser was "six feet or more in height." But then later it's "over six, under six, I'm not an expert in height or age."

Early statements, and pretty consistently for two years, the purchaser was about 50 years old. But then, "I'm not an expert in height or age."

Actually, he was. He should have been. He was in the men's outfitting business, and it was his job to select clothes to fit and suit a customer. In his first interview he spontaneously volunteered the man's chest, neck and waist measurements. These support the description of "burly" he also gave.

But then when there is a suspect who is too young, too short and too slight (not to mention too light-skinned) to fit the description, Tony gets all uncertain.

It's the same with the rain. Originally, Tony just said it was raining. No qualification as to how heavy or light the rain was, but it was heavy enough to prompt the customer to buy the unbrella. In reality, it wasn't very heavy rain on 23rd November, but it did rain and it was enough to register on the rain gauges. It didn't rain on 7th December, to 90% certainty. Nothing in the rain gauges. And Tony's later descriptions start airbrushing out the rain too. Well, not really raining. Just dripping.

Was he doing this because he smelled money? Maybe, but it wasn't necessarily the only thing. The police were telling him it was important to keep this bad man in prison. He probably believed the police had got the right man, and wouldn't have indicted an innocent passer-by just for the hell of it. Big responsibility for apple-short-of-a-picnic Tony. If he didn't say the right thing, the bad man that blew up the plane might be set free.

If Bell & Co should have got the evidence about the Christmas lights but didn't, then in a way it's just as well. The defence got the evidence about the rain, and look what happened. Tony turned "raining" into "dripping", and the judges managed to fit that to the mere 10% possibility of a few drops of precipitation on 7th December, and went for it.

If the Christmas lights had been known to have been lit on 6th December at the Zeist trial, Tony's uncertainty about the lights would have turned itself round so that no, actually, I'm sure now (eleven years on) that the lights were on, please disregard my previous statements. And the judges would have bought it.

Actually, Taylor's cross-examination of Tony was abysmal. He was all over the place. Tony stated that his memory of events was much better at the time of the initial interviews than it was at Zeist. He was relatively hazy in 2000, but "in those times I told them exactly, didn't I?"

Taylor should have been making him read back his early statements, and saying, "and your memory was much fresher back then, wasn't it?" He should have called expert witnesses regarding identification evidence to testify to the extreme unlikeliness of anyone being able to identify a stranger, seen once only for a short time, over ten years later.

He should have pointed out that "the number eight" actually didn't look like Megrahi! He did try to object to that farce of an ID parade, with Megrahi sticking out like a sore thumb just as "number eight" had done in the photospread.

He did so little that Keen had to stand up and try to retrieve the situation a bit, even though Keen was Fhimah's advocate.

The trouble is, apart from the Christmas lights, there's nothing new about any of these objections. You need new evidence. Pointing out that the interpretation of the old evidence was perverse, irrational and biassed doesn't cut it.

If the court says black is white, it seems that black is white unless you can find "new evidence" to refute it.

Rolfe.
 
Several off-topic posts in which members attacked each other personally were moved to AAH. Please abide by Rules 0 and 12.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
During a press conference held yesterday on the recent meetings between Clinton and members of the NTC the question of Megrahi came up. One reporter commented that given the latest calls from US senators for the 'bomber' to handed over to US officials mean "are we going to have, like, a Weekend at Bernie’s type questioning?"


:D:D
 
Funny, I was just coming to post a link to that page. I didn't understand the reference, but Google is everyone's friend.

Here's the actual page in question.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2011/09/171603.htm
I find this extraordinarily offensive, in a political context never mind a humanitarian one.

Megrahi is Scotland's prisoner. He surrendered himself to Scottish jurisdiction and was tried under Scots law, not just with the full agreement of the USA DoJ, but with their active participation. The prosecution team had US lawyers at their elbow throughout the proceedings, to the point where some complained of interference by a foreign agency in the Scottish justice system. The USA fully agreed to Scotland handling the case, and actively assisted.

Megrahi, as I said, is Scotland's prisoner. He is currently released on licence. He has not breached the terms of his licence, and the Scottish government has stated that it has no grounds for recalling him and no reason to recall him. If he were in prison in Scotland at the moment, there is no doubt at all that he would be eligible for compassionate release on account of his current medical condition anyway.

Megrahi is still, however, obliged to live at the address he has notified to East Renfrewshire council, and to provide regular medical reports, and to make contact as required, and not to change address without notifying the council. So far, he has complied with all this, for two years.

Now the Americans want to muscle in and force the new Libyan government to seize someone who is subject to Scottish jurisdiction, and extradite him to the USA. Thus, by the way, forcing him to breach the conditions of his release. This is someone who has already been tried for the crime in question, with the agreement of the USA.

This is the most outrageous encroachment on another country's jurisdiction, and frankly the act of an international thug and bully.

I'm also horrified by the mood music coming out of some of this.

But I mean, we’ve kind of demonstrated that the guy is in a coma. So what, are we going to have, like, a Weekend at Bernie’s type questioning? I mean, how much legitimately can – information can this guy provide? And if he’s kind of – does he have his faculties about him to do anything?


Megrahi was in Scottish custody, in full possession of his faculties, for over ten years. He steadfastly maintained the position that he had nothing at all to do with the Lockerbie bombing. Why should anyone imagine he was likely to change his position at this stage? Are the Americans seriously contemplating seizing a terminally ill man in his last months of life and waterboarding him?

Rolfe.
 
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This is the most outrageous encroachment on another country's jurisdiction, and frankly the act of an international thug and bully.

Most outrageous? You must remember you speak of the country that happily sends murder squads into an ally's territory without prior notice.
 
OK, fair point.

I'm still outraged, though. Complete disregard for the sovereignty of an ally. An ally that's supposed to be in a "special relationship".

Disgusting.

Rolfe.
 
OK, fair point.

I'm still outraged, though. Complete disregard for the sovereignty of an ally. An ally that's supposed to be in a "special relationship".

Disgusting.

Rolfe.

Sorry, just me nitpicking again. I agree with the points you were making, but it's sadly not something out of character with regards to US foreign policy. Does anyone still believe we still have a 'special relationship'?
 
Sorry, just me nitpicking again. I agree with the points you were making, but it's sadly not something out of character with regards to US foreign policy. Does anyone still believe we still have a 'special relationship'?

And wouldn't it be the Westminster government that the special relationship would be with...




runs away and hides
 
Indeed. But do you really think the USA can tell the difference? And until we get independence, the Westminster government is still "us".

Rolfe.
 

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