Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

[Edx]

Since all they are saying is the beam reached 1000 degreesC I don't see what your point is?

Unless someone else can correct me it is my understanding that the WPI study showed that that the eutectic reaction lowered the melting point of steel. IOW, it specifically doesnt not show the instant steel melting temperatures that truthers claim.

For example, from an article WPI:

A eutectic compound is a mixture of two or more substances that melts at the lowest temperature of any mixture of its components. Blacksmiths took advantage of this property by welding over fires of sulfur-rich charcoal, which lowers the melting point of iron. In the World Trade Center fire, the presence of oxygen, sulfur and heat caused iron oxide and iron sulfide to form at the surface of structural steel members. This liquid slag corroded through intergranular channels into the body of the metal, causing severe erosion and a loss of structural integrity.

"The important questions," says Biederman, "are how much sulfur do you need, and where did it come from? The answer could be as simple--and this is scary- as acid rain."

Have environmental pollutants increased the potential for eutectic reactions? "We may have just the inherent conditions in the atmosphere so that a lot of water on a burning building will form sulfuric acid, hydrogen sulfide or hydroxides, and start the eutectic process as the steel heats up," Biederman says. He notes that the sulfur could also have come from contents of the burning buildings, such as rubber or plastics. Another possible culprit is ocean salts, such as sodium sulfate, which is known to catalyze sulfidation reactions on turbine blades of jet engines. "All of these things have to be explored," he says.

They want to do further experiments...

From a building-safety point of view, the critical question is: Did the eutectic mixture form before the buildings collapsed, or later, as the remains smoldered on the ground. "We have no idea," admits Sisson. "To answer that, we would need to recreate those fires in the FPE labs, and burn fresh steel of known composition for the right time period, with the right environment." He hopes to have the opportunity to collaborate on thermodynamically controlled studies, and to observe the effects of adding sulfur, copper and other elements. The most important lesson, Sisson and Biederman stress, is that fail-safe sprinkler systems are essential to prevent steel from reaching even 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, because phase changes at the 1,300-degree mark compromise a structure's load-bearing capacity.

The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples. They are continuing their microscopic studies on the samples prepared by graduate student Jeremy Bernier and Marco Fontecchio, the 2001–02 Helen E. Stoddard Materials Science and Engineering Fellow. (Next year's Stoddard Fellow, Erin Sullivan, will take up this work as part of her graduate studies.) Publication of their results may clear up some mysteries that have confounded the scientific community.

http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html


This is real science, not just stubbornly saying it must be teh thermates cuz thermates meltz steel and there is sulphur in thermate yea?

Now, you can say that they are all brainwashed again like you did last time, but make no mistake, they do not agree with you, just like everyone else.

 

[mrkinnies]

Ten years later, this still makes me laugh.

Care to show the proof?

 

[The Platypus]

Your words ring true for the debunkers too. Perhaps you should look at what history tells us. Here's a quote from Goring during the Nuremberg Trials;

Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Looks like the debunkers were brought to the bidding of their leaders or fooled in plain english.

Clearly you don't even understand the definition of the word "debunker". Like every other cult nut i've ever seen, you just can't handle the reality that most people don't buy the nonsense you're programmed to spread...

Why are you even here, to spread bunk, and you pick a skeptics or "debunker" forum to do so... Gee, isn't that telling

 

[carlitos]

Care to show the proof?

You want him to post video of himself laughing?

 

[mrkinnies]

Unless someone else can correct me it is my understanding that the WPI study showed that that the eutectic reaction lowered the melting point of steel. IOW, it specifically doesnt not show instant steel melting temperatures that truthers claim.

For example, from an artcticle WPI:



They want to do further experiments...


http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/steel.html


This is real science, not just stubbornly saying it must be teh thermates cuz thermates meltz steel and there is sulphur in thermate yea?

Now, you can say that they are all brainwashed again like you did last time, but make no mistake, they do not agree with you, just like everyone else.

Looks like they're not sure which is why they need to do more tests. And why need more tests? Because the samples are so out of the ordinary.

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

 

[Edx]

Looks like they're not sure which is why they need to do more tests. And why need more tests? Because the samples are so out of the ordinary.

A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges--which are curled like a paper scroll--have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes--some larger than a silver dollar--let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending--but not holes.

What they know is that it cannot be caused by thermate because eutectic reaction doesnt work that way, didn't you learn anything? It takes time and it occurs a point below the melting point of steel. The question is how it was caused on 911. That doesn't mean"thermate did it" is viable answer because they don't know, the same way "god did it" is not a viable answer either.

You say that there was no intergranular melting of caused by the eutectic reaction, rather that it was thermate that did it instantly which caused the building to collapse. So just so we are clear, they are brainwashed too right?

 

[mrkinnies]

What they know is that it cannot be caused by thermate, didn't you learn anything? The question is how it was caused on 911. That doesn't mean"thermate did it" is viable answer because they don't know the same want "god did it" is not a viable answer either.

So just so we are clear, they are brainwashed too right?

I apologise, I must have missed that part. Where does it explicitly say that?

 

[Edx]

I apologise, I must have missed that part. Where does it explicitly say that?

Which part? I gave you quotes for a reason.

 

[mrkinnies]

Which part? I gave you quotes for a reason.

The part where they explicitly say that thermate/thermite could not have played a role.

 

[Edx]

The part where they explicitly say that thermate/thermite could not have played a role.

Good god, read for understanding.

They don't need to say it, they aren't addressing conspiracy theorists. Intergranular melting caused by the eutectic reaction cannot be caused by thermite. For example, the eutectic reaction takes time, while thermite is fast.

If thermate is so easily shown to cause this on steel why has no truther actually got some thermate/thermite and had the steel analaysed so that they can show it has the same effects as seen in this steel? They won't, because the TM dont do anything. All they heard was "melting" and jumped on it without knowing or caring what the details were, just like every time they hear the word "explosion". WPI want to do further tests because thats what real scientists do.

 

[Sabretooth]

The part where they explicitly say that thermate/thermite could not have played a role.

Why is this important?

They also did not state explicitly that banana cream pies and LOLcats could not have played a role.

You're reaching...pretty badly I might add.

 

[bill smith]

Interesting interview today with James Meigs of Popular Mechanics and Jonathan Kay.

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/08/25/conspiracy-theories-and-the-sept-11-terrorist-attacks

 

[mrkinnies]

Good god, read for understanding.

They don't need to say it, they aren't addressing conspiracy theorists. Intergranular melting caused by the eutectic reaction cannot be caused by thermite. For example, the eutectic reaction takes time, while thermite is fast.

If thermate is so easily shown to cause this on steel why has no truther actually got some thermate/thermite and had the steel analaysed so that they can show it has the same effects as seen in this steel? They won't, because the TM dont do anything. All they heard was "melting" and jumped on it without knowing or caring what the details were, just like every time they hear the word "explosion". WPI want to do further tests because thats what real scientists do.

I'm well aware that they are not looking for thermite or addressing conspiracy theorists. I asked Chris Mohr what he thought of these findings relative to his insistence that no proof of CD is available and you started jumping up and down about there being no proof for thermite amongst the FEMA evidence.

As I read it, they are questioning how the steel came to look as it did and why high levels of sulphur were found. They now need to understand where that sulphur came from. I don't see them discussing the time element of eutectic reactions and suggesting they are slow.

 

[dafydd]

deleted

 

[DGM]

Interesting interview today with James Meigs of Popular Mechanics and Jonothan Kay.

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/08/25/conspiracy-theories-and-the-sept-11-terrorist-attacks

Sorry, I read "Kevin Ryan" and had to stop. Did they introduce something new?

 

[chrismohr]

Bill,

You said, I should have been clearer and said:-

''Is that how you phrased Richard Gage's question to NIST ? What really happened was that the top section tilted the 22 degrees and then the entire bottom of the building fell away beneath it. Almost as if somebody had pulled the plug.''

No, that's how i phrased the question in my own mind. By the time I had written to NIST this was not a question any more, because I understand it much better now and didn;t need to ask them.

 

[bill smith]

Bill,

You said, I should have been clearer and said:-

''Is that how you phrased Richard Gage's question to NIST ? What really happened was that the top section tilted the 22 degrees and then the entire bottom of the building fell away beneath it. Almost as if somebody had pulled the plug.''

No, that's how i phrased the question in my own mind. By the time I had written to NIST this was not a question any more, because I understand it much better now and didn;t need to ask them.

I was just curious. The next time you are going to ask questions of NIST I might have some suggestions if you are interested.

 

[Edx]

As I read it, they are questioning how the steel came to look as it did and why high levels of sulphur were found. They now need to understand where that sulphur came from. I don't see them discussing the time element of eutectic reactions and suggesting they are slow.

But YOU KNOW how it happened, right? You KNOW its thermate right? All these dumbass scientists just cant figure it out, right?

Anyhoo, they do discuss the time element by definition the reaction cannot happen in an instant and did so at a lower temperature than steel melts.

Also, an aside, why is it they only found this on two pieces of steel? Surely there should be this stuff all over the place if it really was thermate/thermite? And if you're saying they covered it up on purpose, why did they (like FEMA) specifically SAVE these pieces?

And I still want to know if you would be happy being treated by a doctor that doesn't accept germ theory. Very simple question.

 

[alienentity]

'No-planers' are those people who believe no planes hit the Twin Towers.

Wrong again. The term covers all four locations. Full stop.

http://desip.igc.org/NoPlanesOn911.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread490652/pg1

http://www.newstatesman.com/200609110028
' The Pentagon was most likely hit by an American missile, not an aeroplane.'


See why it's not worth the time? mrkinnies is doing a Femr2 and attempting to redefine 'no planers' to mean something that it really doesn't. I supported the term with several popular websites, mrkinnies..... he moved the goalpost as expected without any citation but his own opinion.....

Every major 9/11 conspiracy site is replete with 'no plane' claims for all four locations, but the most popular 'no plane' subjects are the Pentagon and Shanksville.

If mrkinnies states that he doesn't think flt 77 hit the Pentagon, he is, by definition, a 'no planer'. Again, we don't require his approval to understand this.... or does he get to veto our thoughts?

 

[alienentity]

But YOU KNOW how it happened, right? You KNOW its thermate right? All these dumbass scientists just cant figure it out, right?

Like most truthers, he is amazingly arrogant, believing himself to have wisdom and knowledge far above any mere chemist, engineer or physicist.
The word 'thermite' appears nowhere in the FEMA paper, therefore it must be thermite.....

The eutectic reaction does not occur at the high temperatures of thermite, and the intergranular melting is not a characteristic of thermate, it is a relatively slow, corrosive process (see sunstealer's many excellent posts, which mrkinnies and his ilk will ignore..... they know better than all, you see)

I'm done mocking kinnies, it's not even fun, just annoying. Just as I use a flyscreen on the windows to keep out annoying pests, the best thing is to just keep his nonsense out of the way.