Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[dafydd]

I don't follow the logic of the entire thread. How has this made it to 28 pages? How!?

General amusement. Instead of tiny unimportant mostly made up details Pat should be telling us how the huge conspiracy involving thousands of people was kept a secret,mostly how it was kept a secret from the Russians,who had a spy in the Manhattan Project almost from the beginning, This seems to be a trait amongst CT buffs,they narrow down on a tiny detail and never discuss the big picture.

 

[dafydd]

I think that this puts the Moon hoax theory in it's proper perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw

 

[Patrick1000]

My Claims

WHICH IS WHAT? Can you PLEASE learn to write a complete thought, instead of these long pointless rambles?

WHY is the "hoax" forced to claim that seeing stars from the surface of the Moon is impossible (which they do not, you fracking incompetent liar, but anyhow...!) WHY!? WHY is this important?

PLEASE stop with the walls of text and learn to write!

1) The Apollo 11 Mission is fraudulent and has already proven to be so in this very thread given Tranquility Base coordinate foreknowledge.

2) Given 1 above, the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

3) The Coordinate confusion discussed previously and the astronaut star phobia, the denial of seeing stars for the most part, is connected to astronaut fears around the laser actually targeting the Tranquility Base site. Perhaps they are afraid of simple imaging, light exposure expectations/concerns, but there may be much more.

 

[Tolls]

1) The Apollo 11 Mission is fraudulent and has already proven to be so in this very thread given Tranquility Base coordinate foreknowledge.

2) Given 1 above, the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

3) The Coordinate confusion discussed previously and the astronaut star phobia, the denial of seeing stars for the most part, is connected to astronaut fears around the laser actually targeting the Tranquility Base site. Perhaps they are afraid of simple imaging, light exposure expectations/concerns, but there may be much more.

Considering you have not proven point (1) then points 2 and 3 are irrelevant.

 

[dafydd]

1) The Apollo 11 Mission is fraudulent and has already proven to be so in this very thread given Tranquility Base coordinate foreknowledge.

2) Given 1 above, the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

3) The Coordinate confusion discussed previously and the astronaut star phobia, the denial of seeing stars for the most part, is connected to astronaut fears around the laser actually targeting the Tranquility Base site. Perhaps they are afraid of simple imaging, light exposure expectations/concerns, but there may be much more.

Do you have any proof of statement 1? Look up the definition of proof before you answer.

 

[twinstead]

You mean you can't just "say" something and have it be true? I'm shocked. SHOCKED I say!

 

[Erock]

Since we have gone to the trouble of going through this exercise again, it is worth pointing out yet again that; given H. David Reed's reliable testimony wherein he informs us that all coordinate solutions available to him when he reported to duty at Mission Control on the morning of 07/20/1969 were at least 25,000 feet from the coordinate solution that he ultimately arrived at using "rendezvous radar in reverse....

I seriously doubt that. Given the known orbital path, and the difference between the intended position, and the time taken between where they should have landed and where they did land. Being 5 miles out with all 5 different readings is just not feasible. They know it was long, and even an off the top of the head guess of 5 miles long, still puts it only 1 mile away from final position.

Reed is 'embellishing' with literary license, his role in the preceedings. But as with all HBs, there is only definitives.

You showed what kind of a researcher you are by going on about MCC 'withholding' the 'successful' laser shot, when it is cast iron obvious that it was a TV reporter and a subsequent broadcast mistake. LICK would be the only ones who could confirm for definite, and why would they when they hadn't acquired it yet.

 

[dafydd]

You mean you can't just "say" something and have it be true? I'm shocked. SHOCKED I say!

You can in CTland.but not in the real world.

 

[Toke]

1) The Apollo 11 Mission is fraudulent and has already proven to be so in this very thread given Tranquility Base coordinate foreknowledge.

2) Given 1 above, the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

3) The Coordinate confusion discussed previously and the astronaut star phobia, the denial of seeing stars for the most part, is connected to astronaut fears around the laser actually targeting the Tranquility Base site. Perhaps they are afraid of simple imaging, light exposure expectations/concerns, but there may be much more.

Why do you keep harping on this?
It is pretty obvious that there were no benefit to gain from a LRRR.
Any dust-storm bad enough to prevent navigation by line of sight would also have obscured a LRRR.

 

[abaddon]

1) The Apollo 11 Mission is fraudulent and has already proven to be so in this very thread given Tranquility Base coordinate foreknowledge.

This is not true, not proven, any of it

2) Given 1 above, the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

False. You have yet to prove any part of 1) above, and how did they locate this fantasy LRRR anyway? Can you answer this?

3) The Coordinate confusion discussed previously and the astronaut star phobia, the denial of seeing stars for the most part, is connected to astronaut fears around the laser actually targeting the Tranquility Base site. Perhaps they are afraid of simple imaging, light exposure expectations/concerns, but there may be much more.

How did the sextant even work if the could see no stars in cislunar space? Why would they bring it along?
Same question for the AOT.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So, Patrick, it appears you have now abandoned your idea of a "smart" LRRR and now you propose that NASA dropped an ordinary "dumb" LRRR on the moon, then painted the moon with lasers until they found it and reported those coordinates to Lick. Is that today's story?

Can you put some more flesh on the bones with regard to timelines, equipment and planning? When could they have launched the LRRR and which laser could they have used to find it? How much time did they allow themselves to be confident of locating it before the Apollo 11 landing time?

 

[dafydd]

So, Patrick, it appears you have now abandoned your idea of a "smart" LRRR and now you propose that NASA dropped an ordinary "dumb" LRRR on the moon, then painted the moon with lasers until they found it and reported those coordinates to Lick. Is that today's story?

Can you put some more flesh on the bones with regard to timelines, equipment and planning? When could they have launched the LRRR and which laser could they have used to find it? How much time did they allow themselves to be confident of locating it before the Apollo 11 landing time?

Patrick would do better if wrote a film script about this. I can see Hollywood buying it.

 

[R.A.F.]

1) The Apollo 11 Mission is fraudulent and has already proven to be so in this very thread given Tranquility Base coordinate foreknowledge.

Sorry, but you've "proved" no such thing...but it is funny how you "declare" yourself victorious.

2) Given 1 above...

No...it is not a "given" as you've proved no such thing.

...the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

Don'cha just love qualifiers??

So Mr. big talker...what launch delivered the LRRR?? Prove that there was an unscheduled launch, now, or stop making claims you can't support.

3) The Coordinate confusion discussed previously and the astronaut star phobia, the denial of seeing stars for the most part, is connected to astronaut fears around the laser actually targeting the Tranquility Base site. Perhaps they are afraid of simple imaging, light exposure expectations/concerns, but there may be much more.

What a bunch of garbage...I'd like to see you even try to prove any of this junk.



But of course that isn't your "purpose" here....you're just here to troll.

 

[GlennB]

2) Given 1 above, the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

So when was the "failed" mission that was the cover for the covert Surveyor mission that placed the LRRR?

What was its putative mission and how was the failure explained?

Did nobody with a decent astronomical radio capability (including high-level radio hams) notice unexplained signals coming from the moon?

Who built and installed - in a stonking great rocket - the 'spare' Surveyor?

How did they manage to identify the position of the covert LRRR to such a degree of accuracy that a laser could find it?

 

[R.A.F.]

So when was the "failed" mission that was the cover for the covert Surveyor mission that placed the LRRR?

See, Patrick, this is what happens when you make stuff up. Questions like this one will "follow" you until you either answer, or you admit that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

We already know the answer...do you have the "courage" to answer truthfully?

 

[Andy_Ross]

So Mr. big talker...what launch delivered the LRRR?? Prove that there was an unscheduled launch, now, or stop making claims you can't support.

I think he is claiming that Apollo 11 was the cover for the LRRR delivery

 

[abaddon]

I think he is claiming that Apollo 11 was the cover for the LRRR delivery

That's going to be a problem for him, as then he must perforce admit that the Apollo spacecraft was indeed up to the task at hand, ie going to the moon..

In which case, why not send the astronauts anyway?

Expect the lethal radiation argument to break out any minute.

 

[nomuse]

Jack by the hedge,

I see your point and it is valid. I would suggest the LRRR was placed by a surveyor type craft and then targeted for verification by an appropriate laser ranging team operating "outside" the official Apollo 11 program, with its coordinates having been determined in the same way as surveyor VII's were. Except in this case, instead of taking a picture like the Surveyor VII camera did of the argon lasers in 1968, ruby red photons bounce back off this 1969 surveyor type craft LRRR in the context of a ranging operation. The first time done, a secret ranging operation. Once this clandestinely placed LRRR's position is confirmed at 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, those coordinates are passed to the Lick Observatory people as though the coordinates were derived in the context of a manned moon mission and not as they really had been, derived from a surveyor VII type unmanned feigned Apollo 11 operation.

Let me see if I am following you correctly:

1) One of the Surveyor missions, or a secret launch of a similar craft, soft-lands on the Moon and deploys a retro-reflector.

2) A secret observatory performs a search pattern with a laser until they have found the device on the Moon. They generate the coordinates of their find.

3) The Apollo team, using those coordinates and existing topo maps of the Moon, reconstruct the flight parameters of Apollo 11; including adding for extra public interest the story of the overflight.

4) The Apollo team launches their fake Apollo, but just as they are about to reveal the coordinates of the pretended landing to the general public, a Soviet probe flies over the site. Quickly, they make up a plausible story about initial errors in determining position, so they can send the Soviets sniffing off in the wrong direction.

5) However, someone didn't get the memo, and has already slipped the Lick Observatory team the correct coordinates. Lick immediate aquires the LRRR, and reports this back to Houston -- even Walter Cronkite hears about it and tells the general public.

6) Lick and NASA quickly cover up the slip, claiming the Lick team are still searching. Without a chance to consult with each other, they make up different stories as to why the laser missed during the first few days.

7) Finally, Lick is "allowed" success, and it is waved around as proof that Apollo 11 really had been on the Moon.

8) Unfortunately, time takes its toll, and as various of the principles involved later dictated biographies, gave interviews, wrote books, or otherwise spoke about that time, they completely forgot the story they were supposed to be supporting. Instead, they gave out snippets of the true sequence of events, intermixed thoroughly with details that only make sense in terms of a hoax.


Do I have your latest and most current story more-or-less correct, Patrick?

 

[Loss Leader]

1) The Apollo 11 Mission is fraudulent and has already proven to be so in this very thread given Tranquility Base coordinate foreknowledge.

Patrick, do you deny or admit that Rockwell delivered to NASA a command module that could actually do the things NASA later claimed it did?

Do you admit or deny that Grumman delivered to NASA a lunar module that was actually capable of the things NASA later claimed it did?

Do you admit or deny that the Saturn V rocket could do the things that NASA later claimed it did?

Do you admit or deny that the Apollo Guidance Computer could function the way NASA later claimed it functioned?

2) Given 1 above, the LRRR was placed by a Surveyor VII type operation more or less.

Well, let's have more and not less. When was the Secret Surveyor operation launched? Where was it launched from? Was it observed by the Soviets? If not, how did they miss it? What living person is in the best position to confirm or deny this flight?

3) The Coordinate confusion discussed previously and the astronaut star phobia, the denial of seeing stars for the most part, is connected to astronaut fears around the laser actually targeting the Tranquility Base site. Perhaps they are afraid of simple imaging, light exposure expectations/concerns, but there may be much more.

This appears to contradict your other claims. If the astronauts were afraid to look up because of the laser threat, then certainly they were on the moon. Right?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

That's going to be a problem for him, as then he must perforce admit that the Apollo spacecraft was indeed up to the task at hand, ie going to the moon..

In which case, why not send the astronauts anyway?

Expect the lethal radiation argument to break out any minute.

I find patrick1000's lack of familiarity with the usual arguments to be vaguely refreshing. Instead he's naively concocting a unique argument.

Of course it's devoid of any real research and utterly inconsistent, but at least his ideas are new. Ish.