Is Islam an evil religion?

[Lowpro]

Yes you've been saying this yet there are videos on the web of hands being cut off, I guess those believers don't have the same faith that you do.

And you're either blind or lying. If that's what Islam did then there'd be MORE hands being cut off (it should be consistent with the amount of theft that occurs) and yet there isn't tsig. Maybe there's something like a cultural difference, an extremist pressure, societal stresses which foster similar violence. Islam does not monopolize mutilation, would you stop pretending that it does.

Honestly tsig if those videos you see have given you some whacky conclusion about Islam, maybe you need to do yourself a favor and drop your biases, take in the larger view and make a more accurate conclusion, because the one you have right now is a narrow ill-conceived one. If you honestly think that all Muslims were not horrified by 9/11 purely because you didn't see them in any other way but overjoyed, then you have a just plain wrong view, and you need to start over.

 

[A'isha]

So you deny that Islam teaches cutting off the hands?

Again, you seem to think that there are only two positions here: either you agree that Islam only teaches and Muslims only follow the practice of cutting off of hands, or you deny that Islam ever teaches such a thing and that Muslims never follow the practice of cutting off of hands.

Do you really not understand that some Muslims and some Muslim countries fully believe that Islam teaches the cutting off of hands and have put those teachings into practice, while other Muslims don't believe that Islam teaches the cutting off of hands, don't believe in putting those teachings into practice, or don't believe in either? That when you talk about what "Islam teaches", you're talking about all those individual Muslims with their disparate beliefs?

In other words, what do you think what "Islam teaches" Wahhabist Sunnis of Saudi Arabia has to do with what "Islam teaches" Qadiriyya Sufis in Pakistan? Do you think they're the same?

 

[Lowpro]

ETA: And I've told you that 'they did it too' isn't a defense

I know it's not a defense, but you're indicting the actions of a religion that historically speaking was steeped in laws that allowed mutilation ie mutiliation was not reprehensible. Obviously it is now, which is why few do it (and especially few muslims, again if they were doing it as per teachings the mutilation rate should be congruent with the rate of theft)

 

[tsig]

Again, you seem to think that there are only two positions here: either you agree that Islam only teaches and Muslims only follow the practice of cutting off of hands, or you deny that Islam ever teaches such a thing and that Muslims never follow the practice of cutting off of hands.

Do you really not understand that some Muslims and some Muslim countries fully believe that Islam teaches the cutting off of hands and have put those teachings into practice, while other Muslims don't believe that Islam teaches the cutting off of hands, don't believe in putting those teachings into practice, or don't believe in either? That when you talk about what "Islam teaches", you're talking about all those individual Muslims with their disparate beliefs?

In other words, what do you think what "Islam teaches" Wahhabist Sunnis of Saudi Arabia has to do with what "Islam teaches" Qadiriyya Sufis in Pakistan? Do you think they're the same?

What I don't understand is why you argue so hard in defense of Islam. Is it the exoticness of it? Is it because you think they're the poor oppressed minority?

ETA: I can say pretty much what I want about other religions but when I say anything bad about Islam I get called a bigot and a racist. Why?

 

[Dayan81]

What I don't understand is why you argue so hard in defense of Islam the Jews. Is it the exoticness of it? Is it because you think they're the poor oppressed minority?

Edited to make a point.

 

[Dayan81]

So you deny that Islam teaches cutting off the hands?

Islam teaches cutting off of hands.

Judaism teaches that a child who curses their parents must be put to death.

Christianity teaches that women should not speak in Church, are forbidden from holding authority over a man, and Christians should not associate with non-Christians.

There is evil in all faiths. Do you deny this?

 

[DC]

well there are a good deal of muslims that do think indeed sharia law is something good and would reduce crimes.
I have never heard a jew saying they should go back to stonings. well i never talked to one of the orthodox jews.

 

[Lowpro]

What I don't understand is why you argue so hard in defense of Islam. Is it the exoticness of it? Is it because you think they're the poor oppressed minority?

ETA: I can say pretty much what I want about other religions but when I say anything bad about Islam I get called a bigot and a racist. Why?

Don't be dense, if you starting trolling around bashing Christians for killing apostates we'd still correct you. Islam isn't anything sacred (heh) it's just the only religion you're arguing against (poorly). It's not a defense of Islam, it's a defense of critical thinking. If i'm going to argue against religion I don't want those arguments poisoned by the crap espoused by Bill or you. Sorry, but sucky arguments are not allowed.

I'll argue ardently against bigotry and ignorance in every capacity, because if there's anything I'm intolerant of, it's intolerance that was cultivated by poorly formed conclusions.* Interestingly, many Muslims form intolerance from poorly formed conclusions, as do many religious people. And even more interestingly, atheists such as you tsig STILL form intolerance due to poorly formed conclusions. Maybe there's more to intolerance than any particular religion. Maybe it's ignorance tsig. Maybe it's ignorance.

Now, think about that for a moment it'll do you some good.


*I realize the irony, and I love it.

 

[tsig]

Edited to make a point.

You made a point but probably not the one you wanted.

 

[Lowpro]

Islam teaches cutting off of hands.

Judaism teaches that a child who curses their parents must be put to death.

Christianity teaches that women should not speak in Church, are forbidden from holding authority over a man, and Christians should not associate with non-Christians.

There is evil in all faiths. Do you deny this?

Fact of the matter is tsig is suffering from temporal bias. If he lived a couple hundred years ago he'd point bigotry towards the jews or xtians. Temporal bias, that's all it is.

The poor, demented honky

Agreed Hermes, agreed.

 

[A'isha]

What I don't understand is why you argue so hard in defense of Islam. Is it the exoticness of it? Is it because you think they're the poor oppressed minority?

What I don't understand is why you think my correction of your continual attempts to paint Islam as a monolithic religion with just one set of beliefs, commandments, and teachings is "arguing in defense of Islam."

I've not, nor will I ever, justify or even deny the existence of things like child marriage, mutilation of criminals, violent and aggressive jihad, or oppression of women among Muslims.

What I will do, however, is continue to correct the utterly mistaken notions that the above are exclusive to, inherent in, or universal in Islam. Despite the fact that that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who's bothered to look at what Muslims, scholars, and Muslim scholars say.

It almost disgusts me that I have to do the above, actually, since it's trivially easy for anyone to find reams of scholarly, theological, and historical information about the subject, revealing that "Islam" is just as "good", just as "evil", just as conflicted and contradictory and splintered as anything else that has to encompass the lives and views of 1.6 billion human beings and 1400 years of global history.

 

[tsig]

And you're either blind or stupid. If that's what Islam did then there'd be MORE hands being cut off (it should be consistent with the amount of theft that occurs) and yet there isn't tsig. Maybe there's something like a cultural difference, an extremist pressure, societal stresses which foster similar violence. Islam does not monopolize mutilation, would you stop pretending that it does.

Honestly tsig if those videos you see have given you some whacky conclusion about Islam, maybe you need to do yourself a favor and drop your biases, take in the larger view and make a more accurate conclusion, because the one you have right now is a narrow ill-conceived one. If you honestly think that all Muslims were not horrified by 9/11 purely because you didn't see them in any other way but overjoyed, then you have a just plain wrong view, and you need to start over.

Looks like a personal attack.

Do you always denigrate those you are communicating with? You seem to be following the example of the prophet you are defending.

 

[I Ratant]

So you deny that Islam teaches cutting off the hands?

.
I went looking for videos... none that could be said to be actual amputations of real hands.
Lots of hoaxes.

 

[Lowpro]

Looks like a personal attack.

Do you always denigrate those you are communicating with? You seem to be following the example of the prophet you are defending.

Heh, yea it did seem like a personal attack. I edited it, it's much better now. By the way I've told you and shown you your failings. You chose not to address them in favor of keeping your biases. I'm sorry but you earned the venom.

On a side note, when does defending the religion of Islam against your ignorance constitute me defending the prophet Muhammad or is this just you playing fallacious dichotomy again? I mean really, do I have to tell you again? I'm not defending Islam so much as I'm defending rationality. You made a bad conclusion. Your bad conclusion has led you to make bad statements, statements which can lead others more credulous to the same bad conclusion. That is intolerable to me. Therefore I must correct you. Now, what's really sad for you tsig is that even after I've corrected your shameless bigoted attacks on Islam you have only dodged the argument. You won't actually address it, other than to try and set me up for people chopping off other people's hands (and that too was wrong unless you can provide data that shows the proportional mutilation to theft ratio...I doubt that you could) I only creep up to defend against ignorance and you've got it in spades and like a true bigot you won't actually mention any consideration of the evidence.

Do you find anything I've said to not be within the character of this discussion?

 

[A'isha]

ETA: I can say pretty much what I want about other religions but when I say anything bad about Islam I get called a bigot and a racist. Why?

You're going to have to ask those who call you a bigot and racist. I just think you're either unfortunately misinformed, or willfully ignorant.

Though your unwillingness to even look at scholarly works that are plenty unflinching about the brutal and backwards views held by many Muslims and are highly critical of them, just because they (apparently) also talk about the moderate and progressive views held by other Muslims, makes me wonder what, exactly, your motivations are.

But while Christianity needs less "defending" (to risk accepting your mistaken views of what my own purpose in these threads is) purely because most Westerners are all too aware of its nuanced and utterly non-unified nature by sheer cultural osmosis, save for a few notable exceptions no one here seems to have even a basic understanding of the contradictions and conflicts within "Islam".

 

[A'isha]

o you always denigrate those you are communicating with? You seem to be following the example of the prophet you are defending.

Yes, Muhammad was well known for posting weak insults towards his opponents on internet forums.

 

[Dayan81]

..Why do the God-rejecters want to believe this and insist upon it?

Defending Islam & Muslims against vicious & bigoted lies, makes one a "God-rejecter"?

Amazing logic you have there, Jude.

 

[tsig]

What I don't understand is why you think my correction of your continual attempts to paint Islam as a monolithic religion with just one set of beliefs, commandments, and teachings is "arguing in defense of Islam."

I've not, nor will I ever, justify or even deny the existence of things like child marriage, mutilation of criminals, violent and aggressive jihad, or oppression of women among Muslims.

What I will do, however, is continue to correct the utterly mistaken notions that the above are exclusive to, inherent in, or universal in Islam. Despite the fact that that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who's bothered to look at what Muslims, scholars, and Muslim scholars say.

It almost disgusts me that I have to do the above, actually, since it's trivially easy for anyone to find reams of scholarly, theological, and historical information about the subject, revealing that "Islam" is just as "good", just as "evil", just as conflicted and contradictory and splintered as anything else that has to encompass the lives and views of 1.6 billion human beings and 1400 years of global history.

So arguing against religion is disgusting? And the fact that 1.6 billion believe in it gives it credence?


What I find remarkably disgusting is your continued hatred of anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[Lowpro]

Stay on task tsig, you're setting up straw men.

 

[DC]

.
I went looking for videos... none that could be said to be actual amputations of real hands.
Lots of hoaxes.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3d81824a08

hoax?