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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Unlike when you're consulting several learned dictionaries..... :rolleyes:


But did the good man Air Marshal Sir George Jones say UFO = "OMG aliens!" ? :jaw-dropp Your quote says that he was interested in unidentified flying objects. Do you see the difference?



Ya here it's more informal ... I'm not really trying to prove anything so much as just present stuff from the believer's side of the fence. There aren't too many other people here doing that ( in case you hadn't noticed ). So somebody has to throw you guys a bone now and then or the discussion could get pretty boring.

Regarding the RAAF Commander, he had his own sightings and joined a UFO interest group down there. He seems cool, but I don't know that much about him. I just ran across his name while doing a search for Air Force people and UFOs.

j.r.
 
You ignored my point, which is:

You haven't addressed the issues raised in my post:


When I use the word "truth" I use it in the classical context of correspondence ( correspondence theory of truth ), but also that there are both objective and subjective truths and that when we speak of the truth we need to be sure what context we are referencing. In the case of personal opinion, such an opinion may very well correspond to an objective truth, regardless of whatever "hypothesis" might suggest otherwise.

j.r.
 
Ya here it's more informal ...
I think you'll find that all the threads have the same (unwritten) rules, until you go down into Forum Community. Just sayin'.... :)

I'm not really trying to prove anything so much as just present stuff from the believer's side of the fence.
We noticed. ;)

There aren't too many other people here doing that ( in case you hadn't noticed ). So somebody has to throw you guys a bone now and then or the discussion could get pretty boring.
Why thank you. *Munch munch chew slobber.... *
 
When I use the word "truth" I use it in the classical context of correspondence ( correspondence theory of truth ), but also that there are both objective and subjective truths and that when we speak of the truth we need to be sure what context we are referencing. In the case of personal opinion, such an opinion may very well correspond to an objective truth, regardless of whatever "hypothesis" might suggest otherwise.

j.r.

Right now, the context of the truth we're talking about is embodied in the null hypothesis which is:

"All UFO sightings are of mundane origin"​
Opinions won't be able to falsify it and don't represent the "truth" in this context.
 
So you're just going to throw out name after name of people who saw something they couldn't identify?


You may have noticed that they aren't just the names of anybody, but of significant credible people with experience and expertise in their field ( aviation ) that is beyond what you or I have and whose opinions therefore count. You don't get Generals in the USAF giving the opinion that UFOs are structured metallic craft for no reason.

j.r.
 
You may have noticed that they aren't just the names of anybody, but of significant credible people with experience and expertise in their field ( aviation ) that is beyond what you or I have and whose opinions therefore count. You don't get Generals in the USAF giving the opinion that UFOs are structured metallic craft for no reason.

j.r.
If these are individuals to be held in high esteem, then why do you quote them completely out of context, so that it fits with your belief in aliens? See here.

Don't you think that's somewhat disingenuous of you?
 
You may have noticed that they aren't just the names of anybody, but of significant credible people with experience and expertise in their field ( aviation ) that is beyond what you or I have and whose opinions therefore count. You don't get Generals in the USAF giving the opinion that UFOs are structured metallic craft for no reason.

j.r.

Is this thread drifting towards people who were concerned about incursions into our airspace of Russian aircraft then?

Or are you saying that you are going to produce a copy of the Twining memo with the references to ET visitation highlighted?

Or are you just going to rabbit on about people who saw something they can't identify? Or in General Twining's case, from reading anecdotal accounts?
 
You may have noticed that they aren't just the names of anybody, but of significant credible people with experience and expertise in their field ( aviation ) that is beyond what you or I have and whose opinions therefore count. You don't get Generals in the USAF giving the opinion that UFOs are structured metallic craft for no reason.

j.r.
Opinions don't count as evidence, and this would be a classic Appeal to Authority if you were not quoting Twining out of context. However, you might have noticed Astrophotographer's post on the text of that memo:

Astrophotographer said:

Nice to see all the attention on the Twining Memo. As General and Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force, I think his opinion pretty much trumps everyone else's here regarding the reality of UFOs as structured craft.

j.r.

Well, you have your facts wrong again because Twining was not chief of staff when he wrote the memo. Secondly, Twining was offering an opinion based on reports. It was not a statement of fact as you seem to be thinking here. That is all it was and it was based on a lot of sketchy information. AMC wrote the memo because it was felt this needed further research and they suspected the source was soviet using German designs (i.e. like the Horton flying wing). If you actually read all the project SIGN documentation, you would see that this is exactly where they headed and this ended with the 1948 Top Secret Air study 203 which you can find at:

http://www.iufog.org/project1947/fig/1948air.htm

It is important to note that this TOP SECRET study states the following after evaluating all the information:

The origin of the devices is not ascertainable. There are two reasonable possibilities:

1. The objects are domestic devices, and if so, their identification or origin can be established by a survey of the launchings of airborne devices. Domestic flying wing type aircraft observed in various aspects of flight might be responsible for some of the reported flying objects, particularly those described as disks and rough cigar shapes. (See Appendices "C" and "D".) Among those which have been operational in recent years are the XF5U-1 ("Flying Flapjack") developed by Chance-Vaught, the Northrup B-35, and the turbo-jet powered Northrup YB-49. The present existence of any privately developed flying-wing type aircraft has not been determined but one such aircraft, the Arup tailless monoplane, was operational at South Bend, Indiana, prior to 1935.
2. Objects are foreign, and if so, it would seem most logical to consider that they are from a Soviet source.information on a number The Soviets possess of German flying-wing type aircraft such as the Gotha P60A, Junkers EF 130 long-range, high-speed jet bomber and the Horten 229 twin-jet fighter, which particularly resembles some of the description of unidentified flying objects (See Appendix "D"). As early as 1924 Tscheranowsky developed a "Parabola" aircraft, an all wing design, which was the outcome of considerable Soviet experimentation with gliders of the same general form. Soviet aircraft based on such designs might have speeds approaching trans-sonic speeds attributed to some flying objects or greater over-all performance assuming the successful development of some unusual propulsion device such as atomic energy engine.


I see no mention of alien spaceships here. They were assuming these were craft and the lack of any mention of an ET source in this TOP SECRET document indicates they were clueless as what to do.

This belief that they were craft of some kind waned as it became apparent that many of the sightings were simply misidentified objects. Therefore, there was a shift in the approach by the time the final report for SIGN was written it was not even clear if any real craft (other than those misperceived) were even seen:

No definite evidence is yet available to confirm or disprove the actual existence of unidentified flying objects as new and unknown types of aircraft.
http://www.nicap.org/docs/SignRptFeb1949.pdf

The bottom line here is you are taking Gen. Twinings words out of context and trying to fit it into your own belief system.
 
ufology, you've actually got the chance to discuss this with a real, live, and very helpful USAF pilot who knows huge amounts about UFOs, and so far you've offered up the chance. Why is this?
 
You may have noticed that they aren't just the names of anybody, but of significant credible people with experience and expertise in their field ( aviation ) that is beyond what you or I have and whose opinions therefore count.


I beg your bloody pardon.


You don't get Generals in the USAF giving the opinion that UFOs are structured metallic craft for no reason.

j.r.


You can teach a monkey how to ride a bike but you can't teach him how to fix one.


picture.php
 
When I use the word "truth" I use it in the classical context of correspondence ( correspondence theory of truth ), but also that there are both objective and subjective truths and that when we speak of the truth we need to be sure what context we are referencing. In the case of personal opinion, such an opinion may very well correspond to an objective truth, regardless of whatever "hypothesis" might suggest otherwise.


Drivel.
 
I still wonder why these great autorities (generals) have not come up with any solid evidence. Just having them stating that they want some investigeting or other is not significant, that happened, and came to the conclution that there were nothing solid.
 
I have read far more of this thread than can possibly be good for the mind. Then I went away and did therapy and now I have just one response.

picture.php
 
You may have noticed that they aren't just the names of anybody, but of significant credible people with experience and expertise in their field ( aviation ) that is beyond what you or I have and whose opinions therefore count. You don't get Generals in the USAF giving the opinion that UFOs are structured metallic craft for no reason.
Oh cool, then you'll be able to tell us all about how you managed to objectively judge his 'credibility' then?

Regarding the RAAF Commander, he had his own sightings and joined a UFO interest group down there. He seems cool, but I don't know that much about him. I just ran across his name while doing a search for Air Force people and UFOs.

Oh, well maybe not. :boggled:
 
Plural? (or is that plurral ;))

I always figure they only have the one crayon (or crrayon) as all their pictures are monotonalous.
 
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I'd welcome an applied physics interpretation. I'm no physicist, but, to me, the physics doesn't add up. ISTM the air density at near-ground level makes it implausible that a relatively massive object of the size described could move at around Mach 76 in the manner described. Wikipedia says that at 1 atm the power to overcome air resistance increases roughly with the cube of the speed, and thus the energy required per unit distance is roughly proportional to the square of speed. That's a lot of energy and a lot of friction. The light would be blindingly bright, but surely the shockwave would be destructive? If this object passed close by, yer man in his car would be in serious trouble. No doubt there are other nasties my limited practical physics can only speculate on - radiant heat? atmospheric ionization? extreme air movements?

ISTM that there are too many implausibilities for 'physical craft' explanation to 'fly' - the power required, the propulsion system, the thermal loads, the inertial loads, the radiated heat & light, the shockwave & other atmospheric disturbance, lack of any corroborating evidence, etc., etc. The craft explanation seems implausible on many grounds, but the fallibility of human perception, perceptual processing, memory, and recall is well known and well evidenced - particularly in the sort of context of the observations reported in this anecdote (scale of landscape, lack of distance & size referrents, etc). Then there are psychological biases - e.g. is there such a thing as POS (Privileged Observer Syndrome) ?
 
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