Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

The real killer of this Patrick1000 idea is how the Laser device would have gotten there in the first place - didn't Apollo put down three in total, so three missions had to be set up, rockets used, payload designed and built and somehow that package put on the surface - and no one would notice it.........

Not to derail this dead in the water idea but...

Question to our experts; (written by a layman) assuming a claim that a secret military satellite launch could have been used to send a robotic craft to the Moon how reasonable is it to consider this could have been done three times without anyone noting it and could a rocket that would lift one of the old spy birds up be able to send a much smaller lander to the moon?

Same to you Hans, you are mistaken my dear friend. The burden of proof is now with you boy. I showed they knew the Tranquility Base coordinates independent of any official Apollo 11 Mission calculations, and therefore knew the coordinates before the Eagle Landed. The ONLY explanation of this foreknowledge is FRAUD.

How they got the LRRR up there, I imagine like they got Surveyor up there. But they may have had even better craft by 1969 and who even cares? Armstrong/Aldrin didn't put it up there. We know that because 00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east was known before Armstrong arrived. I HAVE SHOWN THAT TO BE THE CASE AND UNTIL YOU FOLKS CAN ANSWER MY QUESTIONS IN SUCH A WAY THAT SUCH A RESULT DOES NOT CONTINUE TO TURN UP, THAT RESULT BEING COORDINATES BEFORE CALCULATIONS, YOU'RE ALL IN DEEP BORMAN POO.

 

[SezMe]

I also tend to learn things in even the most pointless threads in the course of debunking some silly claim or another.

Agreed. The above post is a good example. (ETA: I'll leave this humorous mistake in. I meant post #616 but numbnuts got in the way.) After all these years, I still get a good feeling from "Ah, I see" or "That makes sense" or "Gee, I didn't know that" or "Hmmmm, never thought of it that way". Such comes from folks who take a little time to provide helpful information.

The only thing I get from the Patrick1000s of the world is reinforcement of my amazement at how far into fantasyland the human brain can go.

 

[sts60]

Sometimes clever theorists magically invent super-secret launch facilities in the desert, at Area 51 or White Sands Missile Range. The idea makes sense to them because they think the rockets simply fly straight up.

Well, sure, so did the rockets I've launched from the Arizona desert. Except for when one of the little balsa fins came unglued. Getting to Earth escape, or near-escape, is another matter.

Another conspiracist favorite is Vandenberg AFB, because it's military and therefore must be all secret - neglecting minor facts like the gazillion people who see launches from there, or the huge performance hit you'd take in trying to launch a lunar mission from there, etc.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Same to you Hans, you are mistaken my dear friend. The burden of proof is now with you boy. I showed they knew the Tranquility Base coordinates independent of any official Apollo 11 Mission calculations, and therefore knew the coordinates before the Eagle Landed. The ONLY explanation of this foreknowledge is FRAUD.

wrong

You're repeatedly asserted this information existed, but you've repeatedly ignored my request that you prove it.

When did Lick get the data? What time, exactly, by any method of reckoning, did they get the coords?

Put up or shut up.

How they got the LRRR up there, I imagine like they got Surveyor up there. But they may have had even better craft by 1969 and who even cares? Armstrong/Aldrin didn't put it up there. We know that because 00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east was known before Armstrong arrived. I HAVE SHOWN THAT TO BE THE CASE AND UNTIL YOU FOLKS CAN ANSWER MY QUESTIONS IN SUCH A WAY THAT SUCH A RESULT DOES NOT CONTINUE TO TURN UP, THAT RESULT BEING COORDINATES BEFORE CALCULATIONS, YOU'RE ALL IN DEEP BORMAN POO.

Loud, repetitive troll is loud. And repetitive.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Nor does he apparently know the duty schedule for astronomers (sundown to sunup - with lots of patience and a fuzzy hat.)

 

[ferd burfle]

The points of the "challenge" have been well addressed by others. But even if we stipulated that this was indeed a fraud, the assertion that it blows the lid off Apollo is ludicrous. One anomaly, even the result of fraud, serves to negate all the evidence for the landings? Ridiculous.

Contradictions are the hobgoblins of small minds.

ferd

 

[Hans]

Same to you Hans, you are mistaken my dear friend. The burden of proof is now with you boy. I showed they knew the Tranquility Base coordinates independent of any official Apollo 11 Mission calculations, and therefore knew the coordinates before the Eagle Landed. The ONLY explanation of this foreknowledge is FRAUD.

How they got the LRRR up there, I imagine like they got Surveyor up there. But they may have had even better craft by 1969 and who even cares? Armstrong/Aldrin didn't put it up there. We know that because 00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east was known before Armstrong arrived. I HAVE SHOWN THAT TO BE THE CASE AND UNTIL YOU FOLKS CAN ANSWER MY QUESTIONS IN SUCH A WAY THAT SUCH A RESULT DOES NOT CONTINUE TO TURN UP, THAT RESULT BEING COORDINATES BEFORE CALCULATIONS, YOU'RE ALL IN DEEP BORMAN POO.

Oh lookee the troll is yelling - so er, ah prove it or are you going to go into classic denial? LOL...now answer the nice Mr. ApolloGnomon. I'm still thinking he hasn't figured out the differences in the time zones but we'll know that when he answers the question.

Oh and I'll add my own question (again) - how did the LR get up there if not by our astronauts, tell us the date of launch, manufacturer and where the mission was controlled from - for all three by the way.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

The points of the "challenge" have been well addressed by others. But even if we stipulated that this was indeed a fraud, the assertion that it blows the lid off Apollo is ludicrous. One anomaly, even the result of fraud, serves to negate all the evidence for the landings? Ridiculous.

Contradictions are the hobgoblins of small minds.

ferd

Indeed. He seems to think he can magically hand-wave away 846 pounds of carefully chosen and well studied rock and soil samples based on this one red herring.

 

[Hans]

The points of the "challenge" have been well addressed by others. But even if we stipulated that this was indeed a fraud, the assertion that it blows the lid off Apollo is ludicrous. One anomaly, even the result of fraud, serves to negate all the evidence for the landings? Ridiculous.

Contradictions are the hobgoblins of small minds.

ferd

Hmmm I wonder if his 'secret' proof might be that NASA communicated to Lick prior to the mission what the proposed/planned landing site was going to be? I was kinda young then and don't recall but the proposed landing site was openly discussed prior to the mission wasn't it? Or were there a number of alternative locations??

 

[sts60]

The real killer of this Patrick1000 idea is how the Laser device would have gotten there in the first place - didn't Apollo put down three in total, so three missions had to be set up, rockets used, payload designed and built and somehow that package put on the surface - and no one would notice it...

Another thing along the same lines would by the EASEP experiment, which transmitted for, IIRC, a couple of weeks after A11's return from the lunar surface, and the five isotope-powered ALSEPS which returned on the order of thirty gigabits of science and engineering data from the lunar surface. (My boss oversaw the development of a key subsystem.) They were specifically designed to be fueled and deployed by hand. The ALSEPs were still returning data in 1977 when they were placed on standby.

 

[Hans]

Another thing along the same lines would by the EASEP experiment, which transmitted for, IIRC, a couple of weeks after A11's return from the lunar surface, and the five isotope-powered ALSEPS which returned on the order of thirty gigabits of science and engineering data from the lunar surface. (My boss oversaw the development of a key subsystem.) They were specifically designed to be fueled and deployed by hand. The ALSEPs were still returning data in 1977 when they were placed on standby.

Interesting, thanks for the info, I forgot about those devices has anyone ever tried to reactivate them? (an aside)

Found my own answer

The ALSEP system and instruments were controlled by commands from Earth. The stations ran from deployment until they were turned off on 30 September 1977 due primarily to budgetary considerations. Additionally, by 1977 the power packs could not run both the transmitter and any other instrument, and the ALSEP control room was needed for the attempt to reactivate Skylab. ALSEP systems are visible in several images taken by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter during its orbits over Apollo landing sites.

Those devices send back information for 8 years

Passive Lunar Seismic Experiment: Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Frank Press; Columbia University, George Sutton.

Lunar Tri-axis Magnetometer: NASA Ames Research Center, C. P. Sonett; Marshall Space Flight Center, Jerry Modisette.

Medium-Energy Solar Wind: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, C. W. Snyder and M. M. Neugebauer.

Suprathermal Ion Detection: Rice University, J. W. Freeman, Jr.; Marshall Space Flight Center, Curt Michel.

Lunar Heat Flow Management: Columbia University, M. Langseth; Yale University, S. Clark.

Low-Energy Solar Wind: Rice University, B. J. O'Brien.

Active Lunar Seismic Experiment: Stanford University, R. L. Kovach; United States Geological Survey, J. S. Watkins.

That means all these folks above were in on the fraud, lol. I bet too that a number of undergraduates did PhDs based on the data received - oh my the 'fraud' just keeps going......

 

[R.A.F.]

The burden of proof is now with you boy.

Listen carefully, boy...the Apollo missions are ESTABLISHED FACT, therefore, if it is your contention that the landings didn't happen, THE BURDEN IS ALL YOURS to prove that.

That you would make the "attempt" to change that burden only demonstrates that you KNOW your arguments are flawed...


Why else would you try and run away from proving your ideas??

 

[drewid]

Patrick, since your questions have been addressed, I have a few for you.

1. Was a site for the landing, with known coordinates, selected in advance of the mission?

2. When flying a lunar module on descent, with death the likely consequence of any maneuvering error including running out of fuel or of touching down at any velocity not sufficiently close to zero, do you think the pilot, crew, and mission control would pay close attention to their velocity relative to the lunar surface, and would also pay close attention to the elapsed time of all maneuvers?

3. Given a velocity and a time, can a distance be calculated? Is it difficult to do so?

4. Was the LEM designed to be able to fly freely any distance in any direction like a helicopter, or was its lateral maneuverability limited and its course, once it began its lunar descent orbit burn, primarily determined by its pre-existing inertia relative to the lunar surface?

5. Given a set of target coordinates on a spherical body, and an estimated distance and direction from those coordinates, can a new set of coordinates be calculated? How difficult is this to do?

These could be very important to your claims, so I hope you're not afraid to answer them.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Good questions all, and almost certain to be ignored.

 

[R.A.F.]

Actually that might be a good thing....perhaps if he keeps behaving in this manner, all his threads could be moved to the "lost cause" portion of the board.

Where they belong...

 

[Tomblvd]

I believe the real killer sts is the fact no longer in dispute that the EXACT COORDINATES OF TRANQUILITY BASE WERE KNOWN BEFORE THE EAGLE EVER LANDED. THE REAL KILLER IS THE APOLLO PROGRAM'S FOREKNOWLEDGE OF THOSE COORDINATES.

Can someone please explain what the OP means specifically by this statement? Known by whom? When? How exact?

I realize the idea of the landing ellipse and the manual override of Armstong's on the final approach were undoubtedly brought up. But I am missing what I'm no longer allowed to dispute.

(the HBs need to put out a guide to all the points that are BEYOND DISPUTE!!11!!)

 

[abaddon]

Can someone please explain what the OP means specifically by this statement? Known by whom? When? How exact?

I realize the idea of the landing ellipse and the manual override of Armstong's on the final approach were undoubtedly brought up. But I am missing what I'm no longer allowed to dispute.

(the HBs need to put out a guide to all the points that are BEYOND DISPUTE!!11!!)

It is Pats' contention that the lick observatory had the exact, correct A11 coordinates before A11 touched down and/or before mission control figured them out and/or before FIDO knew what they were. These, apparently, were provided to Lick by an unnamed "NASA principal" who, along with some other shady "NASA principals" at the top, orchestrated the entire "hoax" without any of the 400,000 or so involved engineers and scientists etc ever knowing that a "hoax" was being perpetrated.

I have pointed out the obvious, that this implies that the 400,000 scientists and engineers must therefore have designed and built a fully functional spacecraft, capable of the task at hand, alas to no avail.

 

[Tomblvd]

It is Pats' contention that the lick observatory had the exact, correct A11 coordinates before A11 touched down and/or before mission control figured them out and/or before FIDO knew what they were. These, apparently, were provided to Lick by an unnamed "NASA principal" who, along with some other shady "NASA principals" at the top, orchestrated the entire "hoax" without any of the 400,000 or so involved engineers and scientists etc ever knowing that a "hoax" was being perpetrated.

I have pointed out the obvious, that this implies that the 400,000 scientists and engineers must therefore have designed and built a fully functional spacecraft, capable of the task at hand, alas to no avail.

So in order to perpetuate the hoax, some NASA people feed the exact coordinates of the A11 landing site, before the landing takes place, and then Lick can't find the LRRR anyway.

This, as far a Apollo Hoax theories go, is practically self-refuting. Why give out the cooridnates? Why give out the wrong coordinates? Why even have a LRRR on board if you're going to fake it?

Poor guy tripped coming out of the dugout, didn't even get a chance to get his swings in.....

 

[Kid Eager]

I go away for a sleep, wake up in the morning, check progress. Oh, look - nothing's changed.... except for more posts in the thread (and troll OP is still not suspended for being a smarmy pillock - how much of a dick do you have to be to get suspended around here??).

I think I'll change channels - this one's full of repeats...

 

[Erock]

Why give out the cooridnates? Why give out the wrong coordinates? Why even have a LRRR on board if you're going to fake it?

Because the Russian Luna 5 mission had some sort of highly advanced camera onboard, so they wanted to 'hide their position', lest they be found out with special Soviet photos. Special soviet photos where the Luna 5 doesn't even fly over the Apollo 11 landing site!

I'm not kidding either, that is what he claims.

 

[Hans]

Poor guy tripped coming out of the dugout, didn't even get a chance to get his swings in.....

Heck, he drowned in the showers because he didn't realize the shower water would come into his mouth if he opened it in the direction the stream was coming, poor lad.