Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[nomuse]

I have asked the staff, well studied their papers as well as those of the LRRR experiment's primary investigators Apollo. That is what we are doing here, exploring that. I am eager to see what you have come up with. Did you see X's great start above?

"Exploring?" "What you (have) come up with?" "Questions?"

What is this asinine exercise? You already have an answer you are happy with. You've said over and over again you already know a truth that "blows Apollo out of the water" (or words to that effect.)

What kind of puerile mind game are you playing when you ask other people to try to follow you into the rabbit hole of who knew exactly what numbers at exactly what minute and who they claim told them?

I'm not "running away" from your tomfoolery. I haven't, however, rejected it without thought. I might consider seeing what research might turn up if you could stop with the motor mouth long enough to state clearly what it is you are actually asking.

 

[nomuse]

Oh, and also why the flying frack it matters.


I'm pretty sure if you looked through records of Operation Market Garden you'd find the same man recorded as landing in two different places at four different times under two different commanding officers, to boot. Real life has these small discrepancies.

Real data has noise. This is why statistical methods, best-fit curves, and error bars.

I can see no scenario in which it makes a steaming heap of stewed wallaby when Lick was officially or officially given any coordinates, if those coordinates were accurate or not, and if inaccurate, if the source of the inaccuracy is trackable. Not, that is, to the reality of the mission as a whole. And not, by any stretch of b-movie conspiracy plotting, to any even slightly believable narrative of a faked landing.

 

[nomuse]

My point is, NASA's own narrative, the story as told by the Lick Observatory staff, the story as told by the primary LRRR experiment's primary investigators, the story as told by the Apollo Lunar scientists(Donald Beattie et al), all these stories feature the Lick Observatory staff being informed of the Tranquility Base coordinates on the night of the landing , 07/20/1969. The fact that the Lick Observatory staff was given the Tranquility Base coordinates on the night of the landing is a point, a fact, not in dispute.

.....and?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

If no one makes a further move from the AB side, my position advances,

Bull. Your supposed position is contradicted by a thousand other pieces of information.

Like independent tracking of the craft by telescope and radio:
http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/space/apollo.html
http://www.classicbroadcast.de/stories/stories_sternwarte_bochum.pdf

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I have no use for writing software. I am more than competent as regards my abilities as a writer and would never choose to employ a garden variety thesaurus, let alone a more sophisticated writing tool. From the time of my grade school writings, they have found a publisher, thank you very much.

Seriously? With horrible sentence structure like this?

You're lying again.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

You're trying to get people to go on a factoid scavenger hunt. Then you will magically produce the answer "Ta DA!" from under your skirt and expect everyone to be amazed.

No dice.

 

[Patrick1000]

Oh, and also why the flying frack it matters.


I'm pretty sure if you looked through records of Operation Market Garden you'd find the same man recorded as landing in two different places at four different times under two different commanding officers, to boot. Real life has these small discrepancies.

Real data has noise. This is why statistical methods, best-fit curves, and error bars.

I can see no scenario in which it makes a steaming heap of stewed wallaby when Lick was officially or officially given any coordinates, if those coordinates were accurate or not, and if inaccurate, if the source of the inaccuracy is trackable. Not, that is, to the reality of the mission as a whole. And not, by any stretch of b-movie conspiracy plotting, to any even slightly believable narrative of a faked landing.

Well does it matter that the astronauts themselves were the ones to discover the coordinates as X claims in his post nomuse?

 

[Patrick1000]

Lick called NASA and got the coordinates as calculated and radioed back by Armstrong and Aldrin.

As has been already answered in your other thread. Link

See here nomuse, your colleague X's response. H said the coordinates were calculated by the astronauts. Maybe that would be important, if the astronauts calculated them. would you think it important that the astronauts calculated the coordinates as X points out they did. I think it is sort of important. Do we agree or disagree there?

 

[Patrick1000]

Oh, and also why the flying frack it matters.


I'm pretty sure if you looked through records of Operation Market Garden you'd find the same man recorded as landing in two different places at four different times under two different commanding officers, to boot. Real life has these small discrepancies.

Real data has noise. This is why statistical methods, best-fit curves, and error bars.

I can see no scenario in which it makes a steaming heap of stewed wallaby when Lick was officially or officially given any coordinates, if those coordinates were accurate or not, and if inaccurate, if the source of the inaccuracy is trackable. Not, that is, to the reality of the mission as a whole. And not, by any stretch of b-movie conspiracy plotting, to any even slightly believable narrative of a faked landing.

So maybe "when" doesn't matter as you point out above, but "how" they were calculated, how they were calculated by the astronauts, maybe that would be important. I wonder what the astronauts might have used to calculate the coordinates that they gave to the Lick Observatory staff, you know 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Maybe they used a star chart, or data in the PNGS, or data in the AGS, or maybe they had a "crude map" of the moon like Michael Collins says is the only tool one has available in one's finding an astronaut's location on the moon. What do you think nomuse? Maybe you are correct, maybe "when" is not important, but who and how is. I think all 4 are important when, how, who, what, all 4 seem important. Oh where ever has X gone to?

 

[Patrick1000]

1: Armstrong.
2: just before landing.
3.0,41,15N 23,25,45E.
4.by lick or Armstrong?

Thanks Red, #4 there Red, what exactly did they do to come up with those numbers there; 00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east. what device, what method was used. Really do appreciate the effort. Pat

 

[PhantomWolf]

Had you done some research you'd know:

1) who contacted Lick Observatory on that evening and provided the scientists there the coordinates of Tranquility Base so that the scientists might target the lunar laser retro-reflector said to have been placed on the lunar surface by the Apollo 11 astronauts?

No one, Lick Observatory rang Mission Control to getthe details.

Rem Stone: We needed to know exactly where on the Moon the astronauts were. The lunar module, which was under manual control in order to avoid some rough terrain, had not been landed exactly where planned. However, the astronauts soon determined their precise location and radioed the information to Mission Control in Houston. Later that evening, Joseph Wampler [now a professor emeritus of astronomy at the University of California at Santa Cruz and who coordinated the experiment] got the coordinates for the actual landing from Mission Control.

2) When was that notification made?

Sometime that evening after the LRRR had been placed.

Rem Stone: Unlikely. But eventually someone shouted “There it is!” And the Moon appeared as the most delicate spider web tracery of barely perceptible highlights. The problem was with our new camera, a low-light-level vidicon, which had just been declassified by the Defense Department, and we’d only tested it at night. The contrast of a bright Moon on a bright sky in very early twilight was very different. Seems we could find the Moon after all and, in fact, we must have been on it 100 times already that evening. Whew! Then we took a break to watch Neil Armstrong’s first step event on TV.

FXW: Did you get to watch the astronauts walk on the moon?

Rem Stone: We took a break to watch Neil Armstrong's historic first step on TV. And the reflector was the first piece of experimental equipment the astronauts put on the Moon’s surface - an array of 100 beautiful corner cube prisms, cut so as to return any inbound light exactly back to the source.

3) what were the coordinates of Tranquilty Base given to the Lick Observatopry scientists that evening so that they might target the LRRR?

00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, but the person on the call, Joseph Wampler, thought they said 00 41 50 north so they were firing the laser in the wrong place.

Rem Stone: Someone called Houston the next day to verify the lunar coordinates –despite the fact that Joe had repeated every number three times, they were still wrong. The person he’d spoken with at Mission Control the night before had a deep Texas accent and the last two digits in the coordinate group were ‘fifteen’ but Joe consistently heard ‘fifty’ –we hadn’t been pointed at the correct spot.

4) how were those coordinates determined?

By Sextant and Star Map.

Mike Collins used this map to mark the estimated LM locations given to him by Houston. Compare with the sextant locations plotted in Figure 5-14 (below) from the Mission Report.


Read more at Suite101: Apollo 11 Lands On Target – Moon Elusive for Laser Crew on Earth

Sextant link, ALSJ Apollo 11

 

[Patrick1000]

Had you done some research you'd know:

1) who contacted Lick Observatory on that evening and provided the scientists there the coordinates of Tranquility Base so that the scientists might target the lunar laser retro-reflector said to have been placed on the lunar surface by the Apollo 11 astronauts?

No one, Lick Observatory rang Mission Control to getthe details.

Rem Stone: We needed to know exactly where on the Moon the astronauts were. The lunar module, which was under manual control in order to avoid some rough terrain, had not been landed exactly where planned. However, the astronauts soon determined their precise location and radioed the information to Mission Control in Houston. Later that evening, Joseph Wampler [now a professor emeritus of astronomy at the University of California at Santa Cruz and who coordinated the experiment] got the coordinates for the actual landing from Mission Control.

2) When was that notification made?

Sometime that evening after the LRRR had been placed.

Rem Stone: Unlikely. But eventually someone shouted “There it is!” And the Moon appeared as the most delicate spider web tracery of barely perceptible highlights. The problem was with our new camera, a low-light-level vidicon, which had just been declassified by the Defense Department, and we’d only tested it at night. The contrast of a bright Moon on a bright sky in very early twilight was very different. Seems we could find the Moon after all and, in fact, we must have been on it 100 times already that evening. Whew! Then we took a break to watch Neil Armstrong’s first step event on TV.

FXW: Did you get to watch the astronauts walk on the moon?

Rem Stone: We took a break to watch Neil Armstrong's historic first step on TV. And the reflector was the first piece of experimental equipment the astronauts put on the Moon’s surface - an array of 100 beautiful corner cube prisms, cut so as to return any inbound light exactly back to the source.

3) what were the coordinates of Tranquilty Base given to the Lick Observatopry scientists that evening so that they might target the LRRR?

00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, but the person on the call, Joseph Wampler, thought they said 00 41 50 north so they were firing the laser in the wrong place.

Rem Stone: Someone called Houston the next day to verify the lunar coordinates –despite the fact that Joe had repeated every number three times, they were still wrong. The person he’d spoken with at Mission Control the night before had a deep Texas accent and the last two digits in the coordinate group were ‘fifteen’ but Joe consistently heard ‘fifty’ –we hadn’t been pointed at the correct spot.

4) how were those coordinates determined?

By Sextant and Star Map.

Mike Collins used this map to mark the estimated LM locations given to him by Houston. Compare with the sextant locations plotted in Figure 5-14 (below) from the Mission Report.


Read more at Suite101: Apollo 11 Lands On Target – Moon Elusive for Laser Crew on Earth

Sextant link, ALSJ Apollo 11

I have mentioned the Remington Stone article many times in my previous posts. I AM THE ONE WHO BROUGHT STONE'S ESSAY TO THE GROUP HERE, THAN YOU VERY MUCH. As mentioned , I have read this particular piece a hundred times easy and can cite much of it verbatim from memory. Care to challenge me on that?

 

[332nd]

Thanks Red, #4 there Red, what exactly did they do to come up with those numbers there; 00 41 15 north 23 26 00 east. what device, what method was used. Really do appreciate the effort. Pat

K. Collins used a star map & a sextant.

Now then, this shows the landing was false how?

Eta: #2 should be after, not before.

 

[nomuse]

Well does it matter that the astronauts themselves were the ones to discover the coordinates as X claims in his post nomuse?

No.

After all this time, you still cling to the illusion that there was one single set of coordinates and they were passed carefully from hand to hand in a careful chain of custody?

Do you still not understand the difference between knowing where Columbia is and knowing where Aristarchus is?

 

[Patrick1000]

No.

After all this time, you still cling to the illusion that there was one single set of coordinates and they were passed carefully from hand to hand in a careful chain of custody?

Do you still not understand the difference between knowing where Columbia is and knowing where Aristarchus is?

Oh I am sure there are 100s of coordinates nomuse. The challenge question was specific however. I asked specifically for the coordinates that were given to Lick observatory on the night of 07/20/1969. Only one set of coordinates were given and they were 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. So I understand your point, but the challenge question just asked for the coordinates given to Lick Observatory on the dramatic light of the landing. This way nomuse you see there is not the slightest hint of ambiguity, not a shred, not an iota. See how well that works out nomuse. ZERO AMBIGUITY. 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Only set given. Shall we move on? I believe phantom and I may be making progress.

 

[Patrick1000]

K. Collins used a star map & a sextant.

Now then, this shows the landing was false how?

Eta: #2 should be after, not before.

See my notes to phantom Red for openers, we've just begun really, but that should get you thinking.

thanks by the way for the answers, i really do appreciate you working with me and not ignoring the questions. It's great. Pat

 

[Patrick1000]

Seriously? With horrible sentence structure like this?

You're lying again.

Yeah , amazing isn't it, people actually have paid to read my writing. I am more amazed than anyone. And I started at age 10 no less. Songs too. Pretty good, dontcha' think?

 

[332nd]

See my notes to phantom Red for openers, we've just begun really, but that should get you thinking.

thanks by the way for the answers, i really do appreciate you working with me and not ignoring the questions. It's great. Pat

Ok, let's say Reed using the RR was the confirmation for the coordinates.

This shows the landing was faked how?

 

[Patrick1000]

.....and?

Oh jump over to the other thread nomuse, the real action is obviously there now. Why debate poopies when so much more is at stake over on the other side? Know what I mean?

 

[Patrick1000]

Ok, let's say Reed using the RR was the confirmation for the coordinates.

This shows the landing was faked how?

Well for starters Red, the Lick Observatory staff were given 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east while the astronauts were still moon walking. Reed was sleeping then, read the book. He did not start working on his solution until after breakfast time. By then the Lick crew had been hammering away at 00 41 50 north and 23 26 00 east for hours. Note how I wrote 00 41 50 and not 00 41 15. Per X's reference, also one of my favorite references for this subject, they heard 15 as 50, so the Lick crew was 900 feet off there. Doesn't change what we are discussing here, but it is an interesting detail.

So the Lick Observatory staff knew the numbers before Reed calculated the numbers.

That's one explanation. Have you got another? Please, proceed.