Is Amway A Scam?

I was obviously referring to the retail markup. If it's really 30% as you say, then the per victim average income is much less than $2300. It's under $1000.

Oh I can't wait for you show the math on that. Get $2300 on volume rebates, plus another 30% on retail markup and it works out less! :rolleyes:

Don't change the subject. We were talking about Amway, a company that sells "business opportunities."

And it also sells nearly 500 of it's own manufactured products, and thousands of others - and it makes no money "selling the opportunity".

You're describing a "direct buy" club.

Which is how many people, including myself, treat it.

Why is that so difficult to accept?
 
You are aware that Double X is primarily targeted as a sports supplement? That's why they have folks like Kurt Warner, Kara Goucher, AC Milan, Marta, Adam Gilchrist etc etc as spokespersons.

There is an $11.30 multi supplement, with plant extracts, called Daily as well

So why do IBOs get pitched on taking double X? In case you didn't realize this, Kurt Warner is retired from football and going to work as an NFL analyst.

And who says a person cannot simply eat a good diet and not need double x?

Why don't former IBOs take these supplements religiously if they are so good and necessary? Seems the vitamins have importance only on the quest towards going diamond.

P.S. Amway is still a lousy business opportunity regardless of whether or not double x is worth its weight in gold.
 
Amway was cheaper than costco and drugstore, but (apparently) more expensive than walmart.

They don't. The toilet paper isn't even in the catalogue targeted to customers.
Really? So IBOs don't sell the toilet paper? Why is it even on the site? Who the heck is buying it? Very interesting . . .

So you're saying fruit and vegetables are important, but if I dry them they are not? Even when monitored for nutritional content?

Evidence?
Fruits and veggies are important. Supplements containing extracts of certain compounds have not been shown to be effective. The dried herbs and veggies they put in Double X have not been proven to have nutritional benefits. The burden of proof is on the one making a claim. I'm not making a claim. Amway (and by your defense of them, you) is making the claim that Double X provides certain benefits. There is no research to back this claim up. Therefore, we can dismiss it as unsupported. You are the one who said that there was something special about Amway's products that needed an agent to explain it. You have not shown evidence for this claim either.

Evidence?
You don't get how this works do you? If I say that there's no evidence for psychic powers and you say there is, it's up to you to provide such evidence.

Similarly, if I say that there is no evidence that Double X is special and you say there is, it's up to you to provide the evidence.

You are aware that almost no proprietary commercial product has openly published research to support it? There are sensible commercial reasons for that.
Pharmaceutical companies MUST provide openly published research that proves their proprietary commercial products are effective before they can be approved for medical use. Patents are what protect the profits of the company despite the fact that everyone knows what's in a particular drug.

So if the product is patented, why wouldn't they publish favorable results in a peer-reviewed journal? I can think of several reasons . . .


So you're an expert on cardiolipin and skin treatments? There are product claims on the site. If you have evidence they are fraudulent, I encourage you to report them to the appropriate authorities.
I'm not an expert; I'm a skeptic. Supplement/face cream/toilet paper makers are free to make whatever claims they want to about their products as long as they don't claim to cure or treat a disease. This does not imply that the claims are true. As a skeptic, I insist on proof of effectiveness before I accept a particular claim. I view selling a product based on unsubstantiated claims to be a form of fraud. Unfortunately, there isn't much the authorities can do about this particular form of fraud. They can't shut down psychics either . . .

wow. Someone says something you have no knowledge about, so therefore it's a lie? Sorry - I'm an atheist, I don't believe in an omniscient being.
No. If someone says something I have no knowledge about, I get some knowledge about it. I never dismiss something out of hand. I also don't accept claims without proof; i.e. on faith. You may be an atheist, but you do seem to have a propensity to believe unsubstantiated claims on a par with the existence of god. You have nothing to back up Amway's claims about Creme LuXury/Double X/toilet paper -but you believe, seemingly on nothing but faith, that their claims about them are true. You haven't seen the research, you can't come up with any on your own but you are unshakable in your faith. I can't argue with that . . .
 
So if I'm low on say, vitamin C, supplementing my diet with an additional apple wouldn't help?
I don't know. Do you have a problem absorbing vitamin C? Then no, eating more won't help. But if you are "low" because you don't get enough in your diet then sure, an apple will help you get more. But if you eat a balanced diet including plenty of fruits and veggies, there is very little chance you will be low.

So are you suggesting supplements are of no use in people with undocumented deficiencies?
Such as? Supplements are not shown to be of any use in people that eat a balanced diet; they get plenty through actual food.

Why don't you consider kale, alfalfa, apples, asparagus, blueberry, grapes , oregano, rosemary, broccoli, cranberry, horseradish, pomegranate, prune, rosemary, parsely, sage, pomegranate etc food?
I do consider them to be food. I don't consider tiny nibbles of these foods which have been dried up, processed and pressed into pill form to be food. There's a reason we don't get all our nutrition in pill form. Why not just eat more of these things in our actual diet in actual food form?

Yup, which is why I like nutrilite, which includes food high in specific nutrients rather than isolated nutrients.
You haven't shown that the amount of dried, processed "food" in Nutrilite actually contains much nutrients.

You are aware that Double X is primarily targeted as a sports supplement? That's why they have folks like Kurt Warner, Kara Goucher, AC Milan, Marta, Adam Gilchrist etc etc as spokespersons.
No. They have spokespeople to lend an aura of credibility. These people are getting paid to say nice things about the product. Not exactly unbiased expert opinion. . .

So whoever pitched the NSF certification to you in that manner is an idiot. So what? NSF sports certification is about it's safety re drug tests.
I agree. How does Amway control what people say about their products? Answer: They don't. They benefit from the lies. They lie themselves about the benefits. It's all a big ball of lies.

You've yet to actual mention a ridiculous claim?
Saying that Double X has any benefit to healthy people is a ridiculous claim. Saying that cardiolipin is "a rare lipid that helps generate skin renewal." is a ridiculous claim. Saying that Amway's products are special and need an agent to explain them is a ridiculous claim. Need I go on?

No, a business opportunity which you claim to be terrible by doing a bogus analysis based on false assumptions.
I provided ample evidence for my claims. You continue with unfounded assertions. Present proof please, not more assertions.

There's another one of those godwin-like statements that shows you are ignorant of how the model works. For crying out loud its (a) not even pyramid shaped (b) false to claim those "at the top" (whatever that is) make the most money.
It is a pyramid. If I have 5 people under me who each have 5 people, etc. it's a pyramid and I'm at the top. I benefit from all those people under me. I make more than the ones at the bottom. There are people above me who make even more. There are one or two people at the top who make all the money by effectively being the sponsor of everyone else. This is the reason why Amway products are so expensive; they have to chop that dollar so many times.
 
Not true at all. That figure is bonuses, ...

I'd reply with a giant, bright, red, flashing question mark if I'd knew how. Its their ad, their figures. I assumed a simple mathematical point of view, but now its not true?

Don't forget that more than half of Amway's business is in China...

Don't forget that this ad aired in America. Also by this logic, should the audience aspire to the Chinese level of life?

Not to mention that Amway's definition of "business owner" is broad to say the least.

Well, that definitely defeats any and all arguments!

Seriously, why do so many people think "success" is based on chance?:confused:

I don't know, maybe because if I have to choose a path in life, I'd like to "calculate" where will I end?
 
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I'd reply with a giant, bright, red, flashing question mark if I'd knew how. Its their ad, their figures. I assumed a simple mathematical point of view, but now its not true?

So if I had 100 oranges, and I told you I had 100 oranges, and you said I had 50 apples, that would make what I said false?

Don't forget that this ad aired in America. Also by this logic, should the audience aspire to the Chinese level of life?

So you are saying it's bad marketing to include the non-americans?

Well, that definitely defeats any and all arguments!

The fact that them simply changing the words they use would completely negate your argument should tell you something about the strength of it.

I don't know, maybe because if I have to choose a path in life, I'd like to "calculate" where will I end?

Yet when there's something where you can do that, like Amway or other "sales" type businesses, you instead insist it's all about "chance".
 
I don't know. Do you have a problem absorbing vitamin C? Then no, eating more won't help. But if you are "low" because you don't get enough in your diet then sure, an apple will help you get more. But if you eat a balanced diet including plenty of fruits and veggies, there is very little chance you will be low.

Sure, if.

Such as? Supplements are not shown to be of any use in people that eat a balanced diet; they get plenty through actual food.

What percentage of people get a balanced diet?

I do consider them to be food. I don't consider tiny nibbles of these foods which have been dried up, processed and pressed into pill form to be food.

At which point does it stop being food? When it's harvested? When it's dried? When the fibre is removed? Or just when they make it in to the shape of a tablet?

Is it the shape that stops it being food?

There's a reason we don't get all our nutrition in pill form. Why not just eat more of these things in our actual diet in actual food form?

In general you should. It's certainly what Nutrilite recommends.

You haven't shown that the amount of dried, processed "food" in Nutrilite actually contains much nutrients.

You haven't shown that food contains much micronutrients either.

No. They have spokespeople to lend an aura of credibility. These people are getting paid to say nice things about the product. Not exactly unbiased expert opinion.

I never said they were "unbiased expert opinion". I said they were spokespeople to aid in marketing to sports people.

I agree. How does Amway control what people say about their products? Answer: They don't. They benefit from the lies. They lie themselves about the benefits. It's all a big ball of lies.

The only "lie" you've mentioned is claiming someone told you NSF sport certification says something about efficacy.

Saying that Double X has any benefit to healthy people is a ridiculous claim.

Saying that everyone is eating well and getting all their nutrient needs from their diet is a ridiculous claim

Saying that cardiolipin is "a rare lipid that helps generate skin renewal." is a ridiculous claim.

Are you an expert on skin renewal?

I provided ample evidence for my claims. You continue with unfounded assertions. Present proof please, not more assertions.

You've provided not a single piece of evidence for any of your claims.

It is a pyramid. If I have 5 people under me who each have 5 people, etc. it's a pyramid and I'm at the top.

In business terms that's not a pyramid. That might be a pyramid shaped organizational structure. They are common in the business world.

It also isn't remotely what an Amway business like.

I benefit from all those people under me.

No you don't.

I make more than the ones at the bottom.

Not necessarily

There are people above me who make even more.

You just said you were "at the top". Now there's people "above" you?

In any case, in Amway there may be people "above" you that make more money than you, there may be people "above" you that make less than you

There are one or two people at the top who make all the money by effectively being the sponsor of everyone else.

Not even remotely close to reality

This is the reason why Amway products are so expensive; they have to chop that dollar so many times.

Not even remotely close to reality, as has already been pointed out, with independent references, multiple times on this thread.
 
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The UK earnings figures are here UK Disclosure as required by the Courts.

The terms of the UK court case specifically means that tools cannot be sold.

No, they just have to be approved and distributed by Amway. Note that the Amway model is a bit different in the UK to the US.

I must say that these figures don't encourage me to believe that Amway in the UK is a viable business opportunity.

Why? €2664/mth is pretty handy income for a part-time business. Indeed a lot of people would find an extra €132 pretty handy as well, not to mention whoever earned €4,865 and hadn't even reached "business consultant".

Note of course that averages are dragged down by new qualifiers at a particular level, who obviously with a new business will usually have lower than average incomes. In none of these statistics is the time factor incorporated.
 
Why? €2664/mth is pretty handy income for a part-time business. Indeed a lot of people would find an extra €132 pretty handy as well, not to mention whoever earned €4,865 and hadn't even reached "business consultant".

Of course calling it part time is silly because you have no stats on how many hours these people work.

And €2664/mth is a pretty crap income. If I'm starting a business it better be generating way more than I can make working a lower middle class job. Otherwise whats the point.
 
Sure, if.

What percentage of people get a balanced diet?
I would say that most people get enough nutrients in the food they eat. Vegetarians, people on certain diets, people with certain malabsorption conditions -not so much. But the incidence of vitamin and mineral deficiency in modern society is pretty low. In any case, people that need supplements can take a generic multi and it will be just as effective as Double X.

But you said that there was something special about Double X that needed to be explained to people and that was the phytonutrients. First of all, these are available much cheaper in your local supermarket or Wal-Mart. Additionally, there is no evidence that taking them in supplement form will provide any nutritional benefit. So again, I ask, what is so special about Double X that requires an agent to explain?

Another question: Who is training these agents; i.e., what makes them expert enough to tell me the benefits of phytonutrients? It seems to me they are just regurgitating Amway's marketing fluff regardless of whether it's true or not. This is not far removed from lying.

At which point does it stop being food? When it's harvested? When it's dried? When the fibre is removed? Or just when they make it in to the shape of a tablet?

Is it the shape that stops it being food?
Yes. It's the shape. :rolleyes:

Let's assume it's always food. Let's further assume that nothing essential was lost during the drying, processing and packaging process. For example, what good is 35mg of any food going to do? That's not even a good nibble! It certainly isn't enough to give any of the benefits that you would get from eating, say, a whole actual serving of kale. And, all combined, I'm not even getting a full gram of food from that pill. So the nutritional benefits of that food are going to be pretty close to nil, if not actually nil. So including them in the Double X formulation is nothing but a marketing ploy to make it look like it's including all these wonderful fruits and veggies that are beneficial while in actuality including absolutely nothing.

Are you an expert on skin renewal?
Is the agent who is selling it to me an expert? You said that Creme LuXury was so special that an agent had to explain the benefits. If that agent isn't a dermatologist (or has similar credentials) then why should I believe anything they say? Again, the agent is just regurgitating the standard marketing fluff from Amway. But you asked about me personally. I'm informed about skin care in general, but certainly not an expert. I do know, for instance, you can get tretinoin (Retin-A) from your doctor. Tretinoin has a documented mechanism for causing "skin renewal," and you can easily find the research with some quick Google-Fu. Cardiolipin, not so much. OTC retinol is similar to tretinoin (in that all retinoids are chemically related to Vitamin A), but much less effective and I'm sure that even it has more "skin renewal" benefits than cardiolipin.

You've provided not a singleI've ignored or dismissed every piece of evidence for any of your claims.
FTFY. You can't just ignore or dismiss basic math.

You want to make a semantic distinction between an Amway "business" and someone who just joins Amway to get a discount. Fair enough -IF you can provide some hard evidence that most people join only to get a discount. Your insistence that most people don't try to make money is not evidence. I have presented evidence that Amway 1)Pitches an IBO as a legitimate business opportunity, 2)Specifically prohibits pitching IBOs as a buyers club. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to conclude that most people who start an IBO have some expectation of making money. The fact that most people DO NOT make money is evidence that Amway is a poor business opportunity.

No you don't.
Not necessarily
I sponsor 10 people and their sales volume is added to mine to increase my bonus. See page A-2 of the Business Reference Guide. Therefore, it would be very difficult, but not impossible, for someone in my downline to make more than me.

Of course, all of this assumes that I have a downline and they have a downline. In reality, most IBOs don't have a downline nor do they sell any products so the point is really moot.

You just said you were "at the top". Now there's people "above" you?

In any case, in Amway there may be people "above" you that make more money than you, there may be people "above" you that make less than you
Unless I started the pyramid, there are people above me. Everyone in Amway is sponsored by someone except for the person(s) who started it. Those who sponsor more people generate more income; it's the way the model is set-up. Do you disagree?

Not even remotely close to reality.
The Amway Corporation and its private owners are at the top of the pyramid. They make the real profits.

Directly under Amway, there are the Founders Crown Ambassadors, the top IBO level. Only .01% of "active" IBOs qualified as Founders Diamond or above so we can make a reasonable guess that FCAs are a much smaller percentage of this number -a handful throughout the world at most.

Since everyone in Amway is sponsored by someone else, the sponsorship chain runs down from Amway to the FCAs to the guy who just signed up today. The FCAs make the multi-millions the guy who just signed up today makes zero.

So what do the people in-between the FCAs and the guy who signed up today make? Since only .5% of "active" IBOs qualify as Gold or above we can be sure that 99.5% of "active" IBOs make significantly less than $12,303/yr (by definition, inactive IBOs make $0). By simple math, which has been demonstrated earlier, we can make a reasonable guess that the average income for those 99.5% of "active" IBOs below gold must be very close to zero.

Now, if you can look at those numbers and find a real business opportunity there, then good luck to you. But I can predict with reasonable certainty, based on the evidence we have, that anyone who starts an Amway business today will make $0 in profit.

My reference is Amway's own material. Please tell me exactly how I'm wrong using these or your own references.

Not even remotely close to reality, as has already been pointed out, with independent references, multiple times on this thread.
You have given your opinion many times, but you have failed to back it up except with other opinion pieces and assertions that I'm wrong. We need real data. Find some and present it.
 
Of course calling it part time is silly because you have no stats on how many hours these people work.

And €2664/mth is a pretty crap income. If I'm starting a business it better be generating way more than I can make working a lower middle class job. Otherwise whats the point.

I recall many times, our upline would tell us that in order to succeed, you had to eat sleep and crap Amway. In other words, you needed to be doing Amway all the time, save for when you are working your job. Even on a day off, your radar should be on, looking for potental business partners. So the part time deal is bunk. How many diamonds go on stage and talk about the 8 hours a week they spent on their quest. All the diamonds I heard of spoke about the extra time and devotion needed to make it to the next level.

Amway is a poor business opportunity by design. The unfair pyramidal compensation plan. The tool system that doesn't work, but systematically drains IBOs of their resources one function or one standing order at a time.
 
Quote IceraT:
You've provided not a singleI've ignored or dismissed every piece of evidence for any of your claims.


I FTFY. You can't just ignore or dismiss basic math.

You want to make a semantic distinction between an Amway "business" and someone who just joins Amway to get a discount. Fair enough -IF you can provide some hard evidence that most people join only to get a discount. Your insistence that most people don't try to make money is not evidence. I have presented evidence that Amway 1)Pitches an IBO as a legitimate business opportunity, 2)Specifically prohibits pitching IBOs as a buyers club. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to conclude that most people who start an IBO have some expectation of making money. The fact that most people DO NOT make money is evidence that Amway is a poor business opportunity.

If "most" people sign up and do nothing, doesn't that indicate some kind of problem in itself? I have heard of people signing up just to get their friend or cousin off their back about Amway. These folks normally don't complain or ask for their money back. This is something that Icerat claims as evidence that everything is fine in Amwayland. Note: Amway doesn't count the do nothing people when figuring their average IBO income.

Since the Amway opportunity is presented as a business opportunity, the only conclusion to make is that people join to make money. Nobody opens a McDonald's to get cheaper burgers. They do it to make some income. Even out of the IBOs who make an effort to profit and sponsor others, even those IBOs have a less than 1% success rate. A REAL businessman wouldn't even consider opening a business with an opportunity with that track record.

What Icerat is trying to do is to justify business failures by claiming that the ones who don't/can't sponsor and sell Amway's products are simply part of some buyer's club. The fact is that Amway's products are priced too high (in general) and the justification for IBOs is that the products are special or rare and needs an IBO to explain the special benefits of the product. Or to justify the smaller packages by saying that Amway is concentrated. A simple walk down the aisles of WalMart would put Amway's prices to shame.

It's also a wonder why Icerat defends Amway when he himself has not accomplished much in Amway, and by his admission, hasn't really done much about it.
 
Oh I can't wait for you show the math on that. Get $2300 on volume rebates, plus another 30% on retail markup and it works out less! :rolleyes:

No one said anything about "volume rebates." Your attempts at obfuscation just make your arguments even less convincing (which, I guess, is quite an accomplishment in itself).

And it also sells nearly 500 of it's own manufactured products, and thousands of others - and it makes no money "selling the opportunity".

Amway makes money selling stuff for others to resell as a "business opportunity." But, as you, yourself have admitted, very few people actually make money from it. Does that make it a scam? I think so.

Why is that so difficult to accept?

You haven't offered any evidence that it's true ... and it contradicts what Amway itself says.

-- Roger
 
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It's also a wonder why Icerat defends Amway when he himself has not accomplished much in Amway, and by his admission, hasn't really done much about it.

Has anyone written a book on the psychology of internet "trolls?" It seems that it would be an interesting subject.

-- Roger
 
Why? €2664/mth is pretty handy income for a part-time business. Indeed a lot of people would find an extra €132 pretty handy as well, not to mention whoever earned €4,865 and hadn't even reached "business consultant".

Note of course that averages are dragged down by new qualifiers at a particular level, who obviously with a new business will usually have lower than average incomes. In none of these statistics is the time factor incorporated.
From the numbers in the paper, we can see that there were a total of 20,960 ABOs in the UK and Ireland during the last fiscal year. We can also see that:

9,177 (43.78%) of those ABOs made £0.
5,522 (26.35%) made an average of £42.
6,211 (29.63%) made an average of £114
50 (.24%) made an average of £2,300

Which means that the 11733 ABOs below Business Consultant level who got a bonus earned an average of (231,924+708,054)/(11733) = £80.11. The highest earner earned £4200 and the lowest earned £5. Basic math will tell you that the more people at the £4200 end of the scale, the less that can earn the average of £80.11. For example, if the top 50 earners averaged £4000, this would reduce the overall average earnings to £63. If the top 100 earners earned £3000, the average would fall to £55. So the numbers suggest that there are a relative handful of people at the top who make money and the vast majority do not, even though they are active.

It's also pretty telling that only 12 new ABOs qualified to be Business Consultants (Platinum level or above in the US) during the last fiscal year.

So the numbers that Amway themselves gives us tells us all we need to know about how viable a business opportunity this is. I think you know where I stand . . .
 
No one said anything about "volume rebates."

Ummm, that's what the figure you reported was.

Your attempts at obfuscation just make your arguments even less convincing (which, I guess, is quite an accomplishment in itself).

I haven't obfuscated anything. Please educate yourself about the model before making claims about it.

Amway makes money selling stuff for others to resell as a "business opportunity." But, as you, yourself have admitted, very few people actually make money from it. Does that make it a scam? I think so.

Amway makes money selling stuff. What people do with it then is up to them. Most simply use it themselves, which I think you would agree is not "a business".

You haven't offered any evidence that it's true ... and it contradicts what Amway itself says.

I have offered evidence it's not true, it continuously gets ignored. I did it all again in a long reply to xjx388, then my damn browser crashed and took it with it :mad:

I'd note though the extreme skepticism to all of Amway's claims except one - when it comes to their use of the term "business owner", where you prefer their marketing screed over, for example the IRS or court statements.
 
From the numbers in the paper, we can see that there were a total of 20,960 ABOs in the UK and Ireland during the last fiscal year. We can also see that:

Why do you think people like myself (I'm registered with Amway in the UK) who don't even have 5 customers and €150 in over a year (and haven't attempted to) should be making money?

So the numbers that Amway themselves gives us tells us all we need to know about how viable a business opportunity this is. I think you know where I stand . . .

It tells us you believe success in a business opportunity should not include hard work over time. It tells us you believe that people with small goals, who achieve them, are "failures".

I think you know where I stand on that.
 

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