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How the banks create money

maybe one more question then.

Yes, that is the total amount of reserves left after the loan has been withdrawn from the bank. Obviously when that loan money is spent and deposited in a new (or the same) bank, then overall banking system reserves return to their original value ($10,000) assuming the entirety of the $9,000 loan is re-deposited.

Assuming you are correct then, after that initial loan, if I take you correctly, the total reserves of all the banks stays the same (the nominal $10,000), but what happens to total deposits? Is it also $10,000?
 
Assuming you are correct then, after that initial loan, if I take you correctly, the total reserves of all the banks stays the same (the nominal $10,000), but what happens to total deposits? Is it also $10,000?

No, deposits expand because each bank only has to keep a fraction of reserves to satisfy demand for deposits. At each stage of the process each new deposit expands by 90% (assuming the maximum is loaned). So deposits go from the initial $10,000 to $19,000, and then $27,100, and then $34,390 etc up to a maximum of $100,000 (the initial $10,000 + the $90,000 of loans/deposits). So while depositors may think they collectively have $100,000 in cash, they really only have $10,000 that has been loaned again and again). Normally not an issue because 10% is (apparently) enough to satisfy the day-to-day demand for money that spends most of its time idle (or at least idle from the depositor’s viewpoint when looking at their account).

While people call this money creation, no new real money has been created, people have merely been given access to the same money over and over. No different than any of us could do if we wanted and had deep pockets!
 
:boxedin:

So, now I am curious. If deposits after the first stage increase each time (I can tell btw you are probably looking at the table in MMM on page 11) what is there to stop everyone from removing their money in excess of $10,000 after stage 1? It is as if you are saying there are deposits and then 'real' deposits called reserves. If you look at the table though I think you will appreciate that at each stage

Total Reserves + Loans and Investments = Deposits.

'Loans and Investments' are ballancing out the new additions to 'Deposits'. Plus, if the money in deposits is not really there, then how can the 'Loans and Investments' be paid off? For instance, in stage 2 the table says there are $17,100 in investments and $27,100 in Deposits. If there was 'really' only $10,000 in money, how could the $17,000 be paid off?
 
The more I read of these threads the more certain am I that we are arguing over the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

So let's agree that M0 is only produced by a central banks. That M1 represents borrowing, loans, including deposit accounts. Official M1 only represents the bank loans, but if we wanted a more accurate view we'd include all loans, including private loans. FRB reduces the amount of M1 (loans) that banks can create. not all nations have any reserve requirement including UK, Canada, Sweden and Oz. Those nations banks can loan as much as they wish (originate as many loans as they wish).


So psionl0 - I consider you a bright and decent guy (perhaps with an anti-banking fetish), I sincerely want your direct feedback.

Lets say you and I are walking to Lunch, but I forgot my wallet.
1/ So I ask you to loan me a $20 till tomorrow. I hand you a yellow sticky IOU for $20 initialed.
2/ You deposit the IOU in your wallet (originally contained $100 of M0, then $80 plus IOU) and you hand me a $20 M0 bill.
3/ The following day I hand you a $20 M0 bill in exchange for my $20 M1 IOU.

So my questions psionl0:

A/ DO you REALLY contend that you created $20 at step 2/ ? That's magical thinking - you created a loan of $20.
[we started at $0 and $100, then I had $20 of M0 and you had $80M0 + $20 M1]

B/ If so, then will you agree that this isn't some cabalistic voodoo banking process - "money creation" is just another name for a loan ? In the real world the M1 money has a lower value than M0. For example you might have charged me $21 for the conversion of $20 of M1(IOU) into $20 of M0].

C/ What exactly is the big mystery that confuses you and justifies the creation of a 1000+ post thread just to piddle over the idea of a simple loan ? Do you understand that the use of ANY resource, including the generic commodity "money:" is an exchange of value ? If you loan me two fish-hooks for a week and I agreed to return 2 hooks plus 2 fish in interest(my IOU) - then did we "create" two fish-hooks when I signed the IOU ? Did we create two fish ? Its a nonsense view of the world that hides the reality. It's a friggin' loan for interest - nothing more - not black-magic. MacBeth's witches didn't appear over a cauldron to conjure up cash or fish-hooks or fish - it's just a loan with terms - a borrowing arrangement. Nothing was created except for capitalization, potential for greater efficiency (which is very important).

D/ What exactly do you imagine happens in a society where there are no loans ? No "money creation" ? Well look at Iraq(pre-war). No one can buy anything until they save-up the full value. So no one can afford to buy a car, house, get married or to start a business. No one can form capital to implement great new ideas that benefit every consumer AND the business and lender. It's a dead-end way to live - subsistence with no opportunity for advancement.

I'd sincerely like to see a response. P' man.

s
 
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The more I read of these threads the more certain am I that we are arguing over the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.
Yes, a lot of this is just semantics.

So let's agree that M0 is only produced by a central banks. That M1 represents borrowing, loans, including deposit accounts. Official M1 only represents the bank loans, but if we wanted a more accurate view we'd include all loans, including private loans.
MMM talks about M0, M1, M2 etc money. The higher the number, the more forms of money are included. It would be difficult to measure the effect of private loans on the economy (or even know how many private loans there are). Business usually settle their accounts monthly and trade on credit in the meantime. I don't know how you would measure the effect of business liabilities on the money supply.

FRB reduces the amount of M1 (loans) that banks can create. not all nations have any reserve requirement including UK, Canada, Sweden and Oz. Those nations banks can loan as much as they wish (originate as many loans as they wish).
Yes but in Oz at least, the banks top up their reserves through international borrowings. Interest rates in Oz are higher than overseas (the cash rate is 4.75%) so this is a safe and profitable way for banks to operate.


So psionl0 - I consider you a bright and decent guy (perhaps with an anti-banking fetish), I sincerely want your direct feedback.
Thanks.

Lets say you and I are walking to Lunch, but I forgot my wallet.
1/ So I ask you to loan me a $20 till tomorrow. I hand you a yellow sticky IOU for $20 initialed.
2/ You deposit the IOU in your wallet (originally contained $100 of M0, then $80 plus IOU) and you hand me a $20 M0 bill.
3/ The following day I hand you a $20 M0 bill in exchange for my $20 M1 IOU.
Step 2 is irrelevant in this context.

So my questions psionl0:

A/ DO you REALLY contend that you created $20 at step 2/ ? That's magical thinking - you created a loan of $20.
[we started at $0 and $100, then I had $20 of M0 and you had $80M0 + $20 M1]
Actually you created the money when you wrote out the IOU. Note that you have not created legal tender. The only people who I could "spend" this IOU with are people who know how honest and reliable you are. (Even then, only if they find it more convenient to accept your IOU than another method of payment).

Of course, anytime I wanted to buy something from you, I can pay for it with your IOU.

B/ If so, then will you agree that this isn't some cabalistic voodoo banking process - "money creation" is just another name for a loan ?
Of course! Money is based on debt. Just remember that checkable liabilities can be transferred from one bank account to another (ie payment) without necessarily involving bank reserves.

In the real world the M1 money has a lower value than M0. For example you might have charged me $21 for the conversion of $20 of M1(IOU) into $20 of M0].
Not so. If I deposit $100 into a bank then as long as the bank doesn't go bankrupt, I can withdraw $100 any time I like.

Interest is a separate issue but is a reason why $100 today is worth more than $100 next year (you can earn interest on it in the meantime).

C/ What exactly is the big mystery that confuses you and justifies the creation of a 1000+ post thread just to piddle over the idea of a simple loan ?
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Yet, if we are to find answers to the financial crises that plague the world today then we need to understand the existing system (at least in principle. So when people put out misinformation on this forum, I feel duty-bound to point out the error.

Do you understand that the use of ANY resource, including the generic commodity "money:" is an exchange of value ?
Yes.

If you loan me two fish-hooks for a week and I agreed to return 2 hooks plus 2 fish in interest(my IOU) - then did we "create" two fish-hooks when I signed the IOU ? Did we create two fish ?
No, we created money (IOUs are tradeable).

Its a nonsense view of the world that hides the reality. It's a friggin' loan for interest - nothing more - not black-magic. MacBeth's witches didn't appear over a cauldron to conjure up cash or fish-hooks or fish - it's just a loan with terms - a borrowing arrangement. Nothing was created except for capitalization, potential for greater efficiency (which is very important).
This is getting back to semantics again.

D/ What exactly do you imagine happens in a society where there are no loans ? No "money creation" ? Well look at Iraq(pre-war). No one can buy anything until they save-up the full value. So no one can afford to buy a car, house, get married or to start a business. No one can form capital to implement great new ideas that benefit every consumer AND the business and lender. It's a dead-end way to live - subsistence with no opportunity for advancement.
I agree. I am neither against borrowing money nor creating money. I just believe that the government should have the sole power to create money and banks shouldn't. Unfortunately, that is more difficult to explain - especially while the present system is not understood very well.

I'd sincerely like to see a response. P' man.

s
Thanks for your interest.

psionl0.
 
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So, now I am curious. If deposits after the first stage increase each time (I can tell btw you are probably looking at the table in MMM on page 11) what is there to stop everyone from removing their money in excess of $10,000 after stage 1?

Absolutely nothing. This fact is part of the logic behind the creation of central banks, which can act as a lender of last resort. Also why there are government insurance schemes to protect depositors. This is the only valid criticism of fractional lending- it can exacerbate periods of economic distress and cause bank runs in extreme cases.

It is as if you are saying there are deposits and then 'real' deposits called reserves. If you look at the table though I think you will appreciate that at each stage

Well that might be my vernacular chosen in attempts to explain the same subject a trillion ways, hehe. And it's more or less true- like you asked above, if depositors/borrowers try and withdraw the $19,000 ($10,000 deposits and $9,000 loan) from the banking system they will find there's only $10,000 actually available. No different to if I took your money, recorded that fact in an Excel spreadsheet, and then lent it to someone else. Sure, the spreadsheet still records the money I owe you, but when you come asking for it back I tell you I don't have it. But, in reality this is rarely a problem because that 10% covers daily usage easily.

Total Reserves + Loans and Investments = Deposits.

Agreed.

'Loans and Investments' are ballancing out the new additions to 'Deposits'. Plus, if the money in deposits is not really there, then how can the 'Loans and Investments' be paid off? For instance, in stage 2 the table says there are $17,100 in investments and $27,100 in Deposits. If there was 'really' only $10,000 in money, how could the $17,000 be paid off?

Because money circulates repeatedly. The sum total of M0 in the system at any given stage isn't that relevant because loans are not paid off all at the same time. You pay your loan back to your bank, the bank pays me to clean its toilets, I spend my wage at your grocery store. You pay more off your loan. Repeat.
 
Of course! Money is based on debt. Just remember that checkable liabilities can be transferred from one bank account to another (ie payment) without necessarily involving bank reserves.

Do you have any kind of explanation for this claim? How does a bank transfer money without using reserves (except perhaps if we're talking about a bank's own money which is not part of this discussion concerning customer deposits)? Each and every withdrawal/deposit from customers impacts the bank's reserves.
 
The sum total of M0 in the system at any given stage isn't that relevant because loans are not paid off all at the same time.
Gotcha!! :D

M0 is just notes and coins in the pockets and purses of the public and unrelated to the banks at all (except when making a deposit or withdrawal). There is a reason why the "cash economy" is considered separate from the banking system.

It is possible that you are thinking of the concept of "high powered money". (I will leave you to study MMM to find out what this means).
 
Gotcha!! :D

M0 is just notes and coins in the pockets and purses of the public and unrelated to the banks at all (except when making a deposit or withdrawal). There is a reason why the "cash economy" is considered separate from the banking system.

It is possible that you are thinking of the concept of "high powered money". (I will leave you to study MMM to find out what this means).

Yes yes, high powered money.

Have you forgotten about intra-bank transfers?

Sorry, I read that as transferring from one bank account to another account in another bank.
 
Yes, a lot of this is just semantics.

MMM talks about M0, M1, M2 etc money. The higher the number, the more forms of money are included. It would be difficult to measure the effect of private loans on the economy (or even know how many private loans there are). Business usually settle their accounts monthly and trade on credit in the meantime. I don't know how you would measure the effect of business liabilities on the money supply.

They don't have ARO60/ARO90 in Oz ?!!?


Yes but in Oz at least, the banks top up their reserves through international borrowings. Interest rates in Oz are higher than overseas (the cash rate is 4.75%) so this is a safe and profitable way for banks to operate.

Actually from 1st hand experience it's rather hard to get those 4.5+% bonds on the international market.


Thanks.

Step 2 is irrelevant in this context.

Actually you created the money when you wrote out the IOU. Note that you have not created legal tender. The only people who I could "spend" this IOU with are people who know how honest and reliable you are. (Even then, only if they find it more convenient to accept your IOU than another method of payment).

I think you are missing the point - a loan is a loan. At least it should have some direct value. At best it has trade value. The pseudo-'m1'/IOU creation is not substantially different from a bank loan, except the institution's M1 is slightly more widely recognized. Anyway IOUs (w/o reserve exchange or account credit) is NOT widely accepted. If I walk into a jewelry store or a car dealership with a check - there is little chance of acceptance until any reserve transfer and occurs and the vendors account is credited.



Of course, anytime I wanted to buy something from you, I can pay for it with your IOU
.
Or perhaps our friends and acquaintances. You are niggling about the degree of exchange acceptance of the IOU. Do you think you could do any better if I gave you a personal check ?

Don't miss the big point - we somehow "created money" without a bank by your sort of definition.



Of course! Money is based on debt. Just remember that checkable liabilities can be transferred from one bank account to another (ie payment) without necessarily involving bank reserves.

No M1 & M2 are based on debt. M0 is not based on debt wether as gold coins or colored papers.. Also I think you have some misunderstanding of the interbank clearing system. Yes real reserves (which are often borrowed short term without collateral) are transferred between bank's accounts - at least in the US.

Not so. If I deposit $100 into a bank then as long as the bank doesn't go bankrupt, I can withdraw $100 any time I like.

Well - not so much except as a statistical event. All banks keep reserves to cover the float - the daily variation in cash(M0) in & out. But many US demand accounts have limits on the on-demand withdrawable amount and time-delays on larger withdrawals. You might get $5k immediately but it might take several days to get more. It light take longer for CDs and savings account amounts to be available. The bank is not bankrupt - it's just that you agreed to convert your high quality M0 into lower-quality M1 in exchange for some interest or other inducement. The bank obviously doesn't keep all the M0 deposited in reserve. - so yes you may have a delay.

When you deposit your M0 into a bank account you get back M1 (the bank's IOU) in your account. The M1 is not as fungible.


Interest is a separate issue but is a reason why $100 today is worth more than $100 next year (you can earn interest on it in the meantime).

Yes, but interest rates generally reflect inflation - don't cause it. Even in a zero inflation rate case you should get some interest for your risk and loss of use of your deposit.



No, we created money (IOUs are tradeable).

Great - I think we are making some progress.


This is getting back to semantics again.

No - it's the core of the inflammatory thread title issue. You just admitted that when I write "IOU $20" on a paper that I created money (in some limited sense). Then certainly you must agree that when I write "IOU 2 fish next Tuesday" that I've also "created" fish in exactly the same sense. You could take my fish IOU and trade it to someone who wanted fish nest Tuesday - right ? It's exchangeable as 'future-fish'. It's really just the same as the $20 IOU.

So this is why I object to your use of "create".
I don't create fish by scribbling on paper. Neither do I create money by scribbling on paper. I create a promise of fish or money. They may have trade value or direct value (unless I'm hit by a bus). They may bear interest by trading under their face value. They represent a promise - just like the tally n your M1 checking account. You MAY not collect the amount despite your expectations - there is risk and therefore lesser value.


I agree. I am neither against borrowing money nor creating money. I just believe that the government should have the sole power to create money and banks shouldn't. Unfortunately, that is more difficult to explain - especially while the present system is not understood very well.

Puzzling. The Governent in the US FRB system DOES have direct control of the total amount of M1&M2 loans FDIC banks can generate. It's limited by the 1/FRB% rate. The government in the UK, Canada, OZ have absolutely no control of the amount of M1 ,M2 loans that can be created. Except they do generally have some restrictions on loan conditions and leverage, but not directly on the total M1&M2.

Why do you believe "the government" is properly equipped and motivated to manage the amount of loans created ? I sincerely wish the US government was only concerned about loan quality - not loan quantity.

Of course in the US at least - there is modest control over private loans and reserves - which helps explain the banking (investment banks are private) debacle. Still - if they are uninsuresd by the Gov - why should the government control the amount of loans originated ? Why shouldn't it be a private matter ?
 
Peter, Paul and M0.

:boxedin:

Absolutely nothing. This fact is part of the logic behind the creation of central banks, which can act as a lender of last resort. Also why there are government insurance schemes to protect depositors. This is the only valid criticism of fractional lending- it can exacerbate periods of economic distress and cause bank runs in extreme cases.

I will leave that one alone for the moment. Bank runs of the past (before 1913) are different in character from bank runs now. So, let me just move to the next parts.

Well that might be my vernacular chosen in attempts to explain the same subject a trillion ways, hehe. And it's more or less true- like you asked above, if depositors/borrowers try and withdraw the $19,000 ($10,000 deposits and $9,000 loan) from the banking system they will find there's only $10,000 actually available.

I see no proof in the diagram or in anything stated so far for the last sentence above. In fact, there is something of a proof against this idea in stage 6. When a borrower deposits the $9,000 in that stage in another bank the assets and liabilities both go down by equal amounts in the bank holding the original $9,000.

In the model I advocate there is an exacting correspondence between new deposit money and new loans, as is shown even in the page 11 table. The difference is that new loans is not new money, but new debt, which is covered by the new money deposited in the deposit liabilities. With respect to the system as a whole, there is a one to one correspondence (again, as is shown I would argue by the table on page 11 of MMM).

No different to if I took your money, recorded that fact in an Excel spreadsheet, and then lent it to someone else. Sure, the spreadsheet still records the money I owe you, but when you come asking for it back I tell you I don't have it. But, in reality this is rarely a problem because that 10% covers daily usage easily.

This sounds like one of those stories people say to little kids. I am going to address this further below.


Good, we can use this as a fiducial point of understanding.

Because money circulates repeatedly. The sum total of M0 in the system at any given stage isn't that relevant because loans are not paid off all at the same time. You pay your loan back to your bank, the bank pays me to clean its toilets, I spend my wage at your grocery store. You pay more off your loan. Repeat.

I agree with psionl0 on this one. M0, at least according to wikipedia, which can be wrong, is not checkbook money, but coins and notes. If said money is stored at a bank, it does add to reserves of that bank though (and deposits!).

Aside from the M0 thing, the sentence above is very handwavy, as have been the arguments thus far for the ideas of the Begging Peter to Pay Paul model of how banking is supposed to operate. I will call, Sceptic-PK, your model, the Peter-Paul model (unless you want to call it something else, but please do not be conceited by calling it the Fractional Reserve Banking model, because that is after all what is being debated about). My model I am going to call the Shell model.

Quick synopsis of each model to the best of my abilities without supporting arguments. I am also not going to address how Central Banks work.

Shell Model:

There are three main types of actions. One action, called a transfer, decreases the assets and liabilities of a given bank (to the exact same amount) and increases in exactly the same previous amount the assets and liabilities of another bank.

The other type of action is a loan. In this action the assets and liabilities of a given bank both rise by the same amount. A bank can do the loan action as long as it does not go over 90% (or other relevant fraction as the case may be) of the difference of deposits and already existing loans.

The third type of action is repayment. In this action assets and liabilities go down by the same amount, but in specific, deposits and loans go down by the same amount. This can happen so long as what you would probably expect to pay a bill, the loan amount is not already zeroed and the account in the deposit has the loan repayment amount in the first place.

Peter-Paul Model:

Money circulates repeatedly. The repayment and transfer actions in this model are roughly analogous to the previous model in at least some senses. The loan process is very different. When the bank has X and it loans Y the bank now has X - Y money left. The bank acts though like it still has X, however that may be construed. A series of loans would (in differing banks) look like then

Actual Bank Money Has After Loan
vs.
Loan Amount
vs.
Amount Bank Acts Like It Has:

X1 - X2 vs. X2 vs. X1
X2 - X3 vs. X3 vs. X2
etc.

Comments.

Shell Model: So far as I can tell it comports with what is written in MMM. There is quite a bit missing to give even a rough picture of actual banking (such as interest, operating costs, assets that do not count as liabilities, etc.) but it follows well to what is written in MMM.

Peter-Paul Model: Undoubtedly there will be complaints as to my characterization of this model. I did try and be as faithfull to the model as I could, but the problem is I do not see the logical consistency of this model so that made it hard very hard to write out (you try stating someone else's case you do not agree with and you will understand why! It is harder then it looks!).

There is no problem per se in a mathematical sense with the idea of zero-sum loans as to how banks supposedly operate. The problem is what does "Amount Bank Acts Like It Has" mean? It either has it or it doesn't, why the charade? I hope Sceptic-PK you do not think I am setting up a Strawman here because words to the previous effect were written by you. I will find them if you disagree. The model so far as I can tell does not match up with what is written about in MMM either, my own canonical source on these matters.

This reminds me of when I was debating a fellow on the MySpace physics forum. There are these things called invariants, just a fancy term for formulas that stay the same when the underlying variables are transformed in some way. The invariant of Special Relativity is s^2 = t^2 - x^2, or a difference. Forgeting about the squares for the moment, I hope everyone will realize that if you want s^2 to stay the same, but want to use an x that is greater than before, say x1, you have to use a t1 that is greater than the t from before. So in this case s^2 = t1^2 - x1^2 = t^2 - x^2, t1 > t, x1 > x.

This is roughly analogous to how banking works. You have reserves (s^2) and you want to make a loan (a greater value in x), then you will need a greater value in deposits (t^2) to offset the increase in loans (x^2). The analogy of course breaks down in a way because while in SR you can increase t without limit (this does not break the c-limit in case you are wondering, and remember t^2 is deposits in this analogy), you can not increase deposits/loans without limit due to the geometric sum nature of FRB.

Sceptic-PK, you are like that fellow who misunderstood SR. He could not get his head around the idea of an invariant having a difference because he always thought the invariant had to be a sum! In a sum, such as z = x + y, if you increase x, you have to decrease y to keep z the same. Look at page 11 table of MMM. The invariant is the total reserves (note, it never changes!) which is the difference of Deposits and Loans (something you have already agreed to). That is the true invariant.

Hope that helps.
All the best to you all!
:) :D :o ;) :p :( :mad: :confused: :rolleyes: :blush: :eek: :cool: :boggled: :covereyes :eye-poppi :crowded: :boxedin:
 
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I think you are missing the point - a loan is a loan.
I'm not going to respond to this post line by line because it is mostly arguing semantics. You might say "loan", I might say "money" and we might even compromise and both say "liability" (or not - the choice is yours). The name we give it has nothing to do with whether we can make purchases or not.

Your "fish" argument is puzzling. We both agree that when you write "IOU X fish" that we are only creating an IOU (what I call "money"). Yet you then turn around and argue as if I believe we are actually creating fish. I can't debate "double-think".

I will deal with this comment:
Why do you believe "the government" is properly equipped and motivated to manage the amount of loans created ?
I talk of the government creating money and you immediately change the statement to "managing loans". If you don't want to be accused of making strawman arguments then you should read more carefully.
 
A Ponzi scheme is only evident when considered as a whole. . . . . . . .

The interest on a loan is neither created or destroyed in the loan making process, thus necessitating further loans to cover the interest. . . . . .

That is the main point. Every loan that comes into existence through Fractional Reserve Banking creates more debt then money to cover that debt. . . . . .
[MUSE]Let me see if I can flesh this out a bit.

When interest payments are made to a bank, that money gets withdrawn from circulation. Some of the interest will be spent by the bank back into the community but it is reasonable to assume that a net amount of interest remains with the bank. This means that the total amount of money in the community has decreased but the total amount of debt in the community remains unchanged.

Since the reserves of a bank are not changed by interest payments (I am assuming that the interest is paid directly out of a bank account), the bank can make new loans equal to the net interest that was withdrawn from the community.

This means that the total amount of money in the community is restored but the total amount of debt in the community has increased by the amount of the net interest paid and the interest bill of the community will rise by the same proportion.

So, if the banks are bleeding money out of the community then debts must rise exponentially to maintain a constant money supply. This can't continue indefinitely! Sooner or later, the number of debt defaults must increase as more and more people find their personal debts too big to service. These defaults would come directly from the banks' profits (the net interest the bank kept for itself) and hopefully the total debt in the community will fall back in line with the total amount of money in the community.

OTOH, bad debts are bad for banks. They increase the risk of a bank run.

If this is the case, then the correct word is "usury" not "interest".

However, the analysis may be too simple. I still need to consider the role of governments and central banks in all of this. Maybe, by printing money to replace that which was "bled" by the banks, they can neutralize the growth of debt through inflation.[/MUSE]
 
hoorah!

:boxedin:

psionl0, you are awesome! As far as I know you are the first poster to truelly get it. I am basically where you are at concerning trying to figure out how central banks work to mitigate the effects of exponentially rising debt, or excacerbate it. The concerns you raised in the last post, although I myself would give them a decidedly more negative sounding bent, are legitimate so far as I can tell.

Besides the blackhole dynamics of how FRB operates, there is also the way that banks act like rentier (pronounced ron-tee-ay) seekers. If you want to really expand your mind on matters economic I suggest looking into the following authors: Henry George, Dr. Michael Hudson, Stephen Zarlenga. The book "Web of Debt" is pretty good too (by Ellen Brown, although she believes possibly in some pretty woo alternative health stuff, no one is perfect).

There are three main problems with the current banking system.

The first problem is they charge interest but do not create the money to cover that interest. Possible solution: create the money to cover the interest! This could be done pretty easily. Each bank would be required to report monthly how much interest payments they recieved. The government (whichever government gave the bank its charter) would then be required to spend that amount back into the economy (and by spend I mean the government creates the money from nothing and spends it into existence). If it could not spend it then whatever is left could be used as a dividend (shades of Alaska Permanent Fund Dividend).

The second problem with the banking system now is they charge too much interest. It is ridiculous. You know that most loans today (car, home) are what are called front-end loaded. Most of the initial payments are interest.

This is because the banksters created a truelly devious form of interest payment schedule where each payment pays interest on what is left of the amount owed! This is a double whammy because money today is worth more than money tomorrow (in our current system) and because the interest accrued in this manner can be quite a lot! Get a 15 year mortgage versus a 30 year if you can afford the payments. Oh yeah, credit cards work the same way too (let's not forget the obscene charges banks make as well, overdraft, etc.) so that is why you should always pay more then the minimum ballace, because it eats into the principal owed faster, thus reducing the amount that is ultimately paid out by you.

Solution: Require by law banks are not allowed to make certain types of loans like the ones described. Require them to never allow negative accounts or the other methods they use to nickel and dime us all the time.

The third problem is banks can collude (and have colluded) to bring economies down. Solution: always have at least some government run banks with strict rules on them that never change.

Shout outs: Bank of North Dakota, LETS, Stephen Zarlenga, Henry George, Ellen Brown.

All the best to you all!
:) :p :rolleyes: :D :o :( ;) :mad: :confused: :cool: :eye-poppi :crowded: :eek: :blush: :boggled: :jaw-dropp :covereyes :boxedin:
 
Where, oh where, can Sceptic-PK be? Getting trounced is no fun I imagine, but
Sceptic-PK, the solution is simple. Realize your mistake, forthrightly acknowledge it and move on. Your honor would still be intact, if not improved!

Can't wait to hear from you...
 
Where, oh where, can Sceptic-PK be? Getting trounced is no fun I imagine, but
Sceptic-PK, the solution is simple. Realize your mistake, forthrightly acknowledge it and move on. Your honor would still be intact, if not improved!

Can't wait to hear from you...

Do I have to explain to you again that I'm an Aussie and I have to sleep? Anyway I have more important things to do today, but don't worry I will return to this abomination of a thread once I'm back from New Zealand. Enjoy your woo in the mean time! :)
 
Do I have to explain to you again that I'm an Aussie and I have to sleep? Anyway I have more important things to do today, but don't worry I will return to this abomination of a thread once I'm back from New Zealand. Enjoy your woo in the mean time! :)

It's good to see someone's trying to reign in the asylum around here. Enjoy your time off!
 
Do I have to explain to you again that I'm an Aussie and I have to sleep?

There is this thing called the internet and electricity, makes it hard for anyone to know when someone else is likely to be sleeping. Good to know that you are a human and need sleep, although I never really doubted or did not know this... so, boring.

Anyway I have more important things to do today, but don't worry I will return to this abomination of a thread once I'm back from New Zealand. Enjoy your woo in the mean time! :)

Eh, you might as well save your time, I can almost guess what your post will be like. (1) You'll say I am wrong, (2) repeat your Peter-Paul story without referrence to anything in MMM or other source but of course (3) saying MMM somehow magically proves it, expecting everyone to believe your narative because it somehow sounds right. (4) The words to the effect of "money circulates", "reserves is the money the bank actually has" and so forth will be used.

We'll see. Woohoo!
 

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