Is Islam an evil religion?

[Craig B]

Your "I would hope none" about Greek, Spanish or Sicilian Muslim mosques allied to your (justified) concern over Anatolian Greek churches, is quite revolting, and must enable anyone on this thread to identify you as a mindless bigot. Shame on you.

 

[Sawbones79]

I would hope none.

What would be the point of tearing down historical landmarks such as old mosques? Many countries have highly interesting buildings put there by some occupying force, in this case mainly the turks. I've spent many hours walking around Alhambra, and it's a magnificient structure of great historical significance. Should it be shunned because of the single fact that the moorish invaders that built it also happened to be muslims?

 

[Craig B]

Bill

Who wrote the enormously redacted version of your 10.09 pm, edited 10.21? It's quite scholarly and not "balooney" at all. From "Religious minorities are not ... "

Dhimmitude is a form of tolerance; not even that was extended to Muslims in Spain after the reconquest, and the version applied to the Jews in European ghettos was much harsher than the Muslim equivalent. Much harsher.

 

[Bill Thompson]

What would be the point of tearing down historical landmarks such as old mosques? Many countries have highly interesting buildings put there by some occupying force, in this case mainly the turks. I've spent many hours walking around Alhambra, and it's a magnificient structure of great historical significance. Should it be shunned because of the single fact that the moorish invaders that built it also happened to be muslims?

When I was in Greece I noticed a few buildings in some remote places had a Turkish feel about it. Specifically, the bathroom at the bus stop.

And I don't know of baklava was first from Turkey or first from Greece, but they both have it now.

I will ask my distant cousins.

But I think saving houses of worship after a foreign force has been driven out for historic purposes might be like saving a Lutherian church at Auschwitz for historic purposes -- only worse because there is nothing in Lutherianism that demands to imprisoning the jews. I would not pass judgement if they rip them down.

 

[Craig B]

Are Muslim Bulgarians or Bosnians a "foreign force"? Is that what you are saying? Or should we demolish Churches in China or India, because some Chinese or Indians have adopted these "foreign religions".

Your scatological 'Turkish style latrine at a bus stop' image opens a wide and clear window into your soul!

 

[Bill Thompson]

The Greeks are a pretty passionate and intelligent and generally reasonable bunch.

If they thought that there was nothing in value -- even historically -- in the masques in Greece I would have to say that this makes Islam look bad instead of making the Greeks look bad

 

[Bill Thompson]

Are Muslim Bulgarians or Bosnians a "foreign force"? Is that what you are saying? Or should we demolish Churches in China or India, because some Chinese or Indians have adopted these "foreign religions".

Your scatological 'Turkish style latrine at a bus stop' image opens a wide and clear window into your soul!

It was not a joke. It was truely the only Turkish style building there I saw. It is just the truth.

Wide and clear window into my soul huh?

You are reading too much into it.

The fact that you are reading something itto it opens a wide and clear window into your soul !!

 

[Bill Thompson]

Are Muslim Bulgarians or Bosnians a "foreign force"? Is that what you are saying? Or should we demolish Churches in China or India, because some Chinese or Indians have adopted these "foreign religions".

Clearly the Greeks found no value in anything Islamic, I guess. Now why does that make chritianity look bad?

The Germans have stricken everythig about Scientology out of their country. Are you saying they should keep some part of Scientology there for historic purposes?

 

[Brian-M]

Is Islam an evil religion? No.

Are some of their believers evil? Pretty much,. but this applies to all religions.

Now you've got me wondering what kind of wicked antics evil Jainist extremists get up to.

- Have you ever met a Muslim or a Muslim family in the US?

No. Never been to the US.

Do they strike you as the same sort of people toting AK-47s and sawing the heads off American soldiers? No.

There are lots extremes between adherents who belong to the same religion, and its mostly a cultural phenomenon.

You can't say "Islam is evil" as a statement of sweeping statement of fact. Religious attitudes are shaped by the mores and values of society.

Quite right. Describing a specific religion "evil" is a little silly. But looking beyond the hyperbole of the thread title, the real question is whether or not the tenets and teachings of Islam tend to contribute to an environment of abuse and oppression more readily than those of most other religions.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Yes I am saying that, by definition, it is tolerance. Not invading is a different issue. England, Scotland, France, when all were Catholic, invaded one another all the time. The Turks invaded Muslim Iran and Muslim Syria and Muslim Egypt. So what?

Answer my point.

Where are the Spanish Muslims and Jews?

For the jews, I think the Inquisition was to blame for that.

Are you trying to get me to defend the Calthoics? Is this why you are asking me?

If the Musims where the primary agressors in Spain and elsewhere, what does it matter if there is little left of their reign?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Is Islam an evil religion? No.

What about the later parts of the quran that abrogate the earlier peaceful passages?

Are some of their believers evil? Pretty much,. but this applies to all religions.

That sounds like a cop out.

Do you think Osama bin Laden would have found another religion to justify 9-11 if Islam was not available to him?

Would Christianity work?

By the way, do you think Osama bin Laden went to drive the soviets out of afghanistan for polticial reasons or religous reasons? If it was political, I would love to hear your explaination. Did he attack the USA for political reasons. He said it was relgious. I guess you figure he was lying. Afterall, Islam is not evil and there are only evil people in Islam. So I guess you figure Osama bin Laden was evil. Exactly when was it that he turned Evil? He was once an ally of the USA. So when do you figure he STOPPED following Islam and its teachings?. I would love to read your explaination.

 

[Bill Thompson]

as i told you in the other thread.
you are wrong in seeing all of islam as your enemy.

i don't view islam as my enemy, anymore than christianity, or buddhism, or any other religion or those people who follow them.

I see. Explain, just for example, how buddhism could be used by Osama bin Laden to justify his 9-11 attacks.

 

[Bill Thompson]

One thing that really needs to be emphasized here:

- Have you ever met a Muslim or a Muslim family in the US? Do they strike you as the same sort of people toting AK-47s and sawing the heads off American soldiers?

That does not mean anything. That is like saying Scientology is good because Scientologists are good and the ones you have met are good people.

It would also be like saying cancer is good because people with cancer seem like good, honest, nice people.

Islam is to Muslim like Cancer is to Cancer Victims.

This thread is "Is Islam an evil religioin" not "are muslims evil people"

 

[Brian-M]

plus, I was right. You must have watched an edited version of the video. This one is longer and it has sources at the end of the video

For those of you who don't want to (or are unable to) watch the video, the only difference is that this version has an additional 50 seconds quoting verses on abrogation at the end.

Here's a transcription...

The Qur'an on abrogation:

Sura 2:106
We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

Sura 16:101
And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse -- and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down -- they say "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.

Sura 17:86
And if We willed, We would surely do away with that which We revealed to you. Then you would not find yourself concerning it an advocate against us.

PLEASE FEEL FREE TO MIRROR THIS VIDEO

More info on abrogation:
http://tinyurl.com/abrogations1

More info on taqiyya:
http://tinyurl.com/taqiyya1

The point of "hi-jack" was that after 9-11 people wanted to believe that Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda had hi-jacked islam to do their evil deeds. Everyone assumed that Islam had been hi-jacked by Al Qaeda.

But "hi-jack" implies taking control of something by force. I'm pretty sure that most people assumed that while Al Qaeda may have been doing these things in the name of Islam, they hadn't actually taken control of the entire religion.

Is the war against Scientology ethical or not?

Ethical, but only if it's a shooting war.
(Just kidding. Bullets are expensive.)

Anyway, Scientology helps lots of people.

Can you support this assertion?
(Fake "counseling" sessions and rigged stress/personality tests don't count as helping.)

 

[Bill Thompson]

Most, the vast majority of Mormons are great kind and wonderful people. That does not change the idea that Mormonism is bad.

Most modern Mormons have no idea about the history of their church and some of the things they have done recently or secretly.

Islam is a lot like that. But why is it it culturally ok for us to denoucne Mormonism but somehow it is taboo to denounce Islam?

I think the idea of attacking an ideolgoy with violence is crazy and fruitless. It is fought with information. It takes time. But I think maybe kids born today might be Mormon, Scientologists or Musim. But I doubt thier grandchildren will be. The internet is too powerful a tool. And once the mind has expanded, it never goes back to the original size.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Scientology's most vocal critic -- that guy from the UK who got into a shouting match with one of the high level OT's. Admitted on his special about the E-Meter and the audio tapes that lots of people he say seemed to get better.

No, I am not saying Scientology is good.

 

[Sawbones79]

When I was in Greece I noticed a few buildings in some remote places had a Turkish feel about it. Specifically, the bathroom at the bus stop.

And I don't know of baklava was first from Turkey or first from Greece, but they both have it now.

I will ask my distant cousins.

But I think saving houses of worship after a foreign force has been driven out for historic purposes might be like saving a Lutherian church at Auschwitz for historic purposes -- only worse because there is nothing in Lutherianism that demands to imprisoning the jews. I would not pass judgement if they rip them down.

IMHO there's a difference between the occupying force and whatever worship they happen to bring with them. Sweden waged what can only be called expansionist, imperialistic warfare all over northern Europe (most notably Poland) during the 17th century, and like the Moors there was a lot of religious arguments used as justification for territorial expansion. However, no one would think of this as a "protestantic invasion" in the way arabic and turkish expansion is called "muslim aggression". Empire builders have generally used religious views (like "the white mans burden") as justification for expansion, but it's generally only when it comes to islam that the religion in itself is conflated with the expansionist politics it's used to justify.

 

[Craig B]

IMHO there's a difference between the occupying force and whatever worship they happen to bring with them. Sweden waged what can only be called expansionist, imperialistic warfare all over northern Europe (most notably Poland) during the 17th century, and like the Moors there was a lot of religious arguments used as justification for territorial expansion. However, no one would think of this as a "protestantic invasion" in the way arabic and turkish expansion is called "muslim aggression". Empire builders have generally used religious views (like "the white mans burden") as justification for expansion, but it's generally only when it comes to islam that the religion in itself is conflated with the expansionist politics it's used to justify.

Thanks for that clear beam of light, cutting through all this heat and smoke. I have a problem with Bill. He wants a war against Islam. After 1920, Greek Muslims were expelled from Greece, just as Anatolian Christians were expelled from (secular nationalist) Turkey. These were nationalist atrocities perpetrated during wartime. They are to be deplored. But Bill deplores the Turkish atrocities and says of the Greek ones, very good, fine. The war, for what it's worth, was started by Greek aggression, designed to annex territory from a Turkey just defeated in the First World War. That doesn't excuse the Turkish atrocities against their Greek minority in Smyrna (now Turkish Izmir) in any way, shape, or form.

But the Muslims of Bulgaria, Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina, are exactly like the previous Muslim minority in Greece both in origin and character, and Bill T dismissively says

And I do not see what the fact that there are no masques in Greece has anthing to do with them not being accepting of them. The muslims invaded. They were kicked out. Why should there be a memory of them in Greece?

And are not the bones of such Muslims scattered across Srebrenica? See wiki on this:

The Srebrenica massacre, also known as the Srebrenica genocide, refers to the July 1995 killing, during the Bosnian War, of more than 8,000 Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims), mainly men and boys, in and around the town of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina, by units of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS) under the command of General Ratko Mladić. The mass murder was described by the Secretary-General of the United Nations as the worst crime on European soil since the Second World War. A paramilitary unit from Serbia known as the Scorpions, officially part of the Serbian Interior Ministry until 1991, participated in the massacre and it is alleged that foreign volunteers including the Greek Volunteer Guard also participated.

Now you can perhaps perceive why I am disquieted by the dismissive tone and content of Bill's utterances about the Greco-Turkish atrocities of the 1920s and the fate of the religious minorities in these countries? The Balkan massacres of these Muslims are the most outrageous atrocity perpetrated in Europe since the end of the Second World War. Bill doesn't want that to happen again, I take for granted, but his words about fellow citizens being "invaders" because of their religion, and his seeming indifference to, or even approval of, their disappearance from the community and the destruction of their places of worship (I don't accuse him of desiring their physical liquidation, of course) fill me with dismay.

 

[FireGarden]

Is that how the real world works to you?

Yes, it is.
When a minority tries to portray itself as representing a far larger group of people, then that is an attempt to hijack. When a minority wants to claim exclusive rights to a thing which has been shared with a far larger group of people who disagree with them, then that is an attempt to hijack.

There are some people in the Muslim world that are bad but that is ok, even if they are in position of power? Is that what you are saying?

No. And you know that.

People attack Scientology and maybe Mormonism because that is en vogue. It is not en voge to attack Islam because it is not the current trend. No one whats to be an outsider. No one wants to think for themselves.

But when someone is outside the trend, then they must be somehow wrong or bad or have motives that are dishonest or disrespectful. Attacking them personally would be acceptable and applauded and the attacker feels he has gained recognition and status and respect among peers.

No, Bill.
Perhaps you can find where the following where attacked personally:
(from 3 different threads)

Thus, almost all of the narratives in the Qur'an are derivative and mythical.

I get how that makes the Koran bad, but I don't get how it makes it worse than the OT.

No argument here. I've read various attempts at justifying this, but none of it (nor the various inferior methods a woman can try to obtain a divorce) can disguise the essentially misogynistic, patriarchal nature and origin of divorce in general under shariah.

If they weren't, then why are you considered dishonest?

What about the later parts of the quran that abrogate the earlier peaceful passages?

This is a claim you have not backed up.
We all agree that there is such a thing as abrogation. But you don't want to discuss specific examples of verses being abrogated.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I will address those points later. But for now I noticed something new.

DC has his discussion threads mixed up.

He asked me something addressed in this thread in another one.

He thinks I am "paranoid" because not all muslism think the way that the video in this discussion thread says.

Well, not all Nazis supported death camps.

Not all Catholic priests are (can't think of a politically correct term here).

That does not matter. It does not matter of some muslims are good or even if most muslims are good. That has nothing really to do if Islam is good or not.

I did not want my kid baptised in a Catholic church. I guess you could call me paranoid. But sometimes the "paranoid" survive when others do not.

I am sure Condi Rice thought the Israelis and the Germans were paranoid when they warned her about 9-11.