Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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How'd They Do It?

Erock,

Surveyor VII flew to the moon in January of 1968. While there, the unmanned craft's camera photographed the light from 2 argon lasers which targeted Surveyor VII from Earth. This "photographing" of the Earth lasers from the moon's surface with Surveyor VII's camera lead to the proposals for what would become the LRRR experiments. NASA had the ability to land unmanned craft on the moon and photograph laser light of terrestrial origin targeting the craft. This is a point which I am sure we may all agree is not in dispute.

Donald A. Beattie was a geologist who worked as one of the Apollo program's basic scientists. In his book, TAKING SCIENCE TO THE MOON, Beattie described the scientists having developed a surveying staff LRRR type device which would reflect a laser beam from a ranging device and automatically record the coordinates of its position on the lunar surface.

Here is a quote from Beattie's book, electronic book location 1616;

"USGS had similar concerns but thought the biggest problem would be locating and documenting the sites visited, and in particular sampled, so that accurate traverse maps and profiles could be reconstructed back on Earth. The Flagstaff team had devised a surveying staff that would reflect a laser beam from a ranging device and automatically record the coordinates of a position on the lunar surface. This approach was based on the simulations and exercises we had been conducting for the post-Apollo missions, which suggested that without some type of surveying instrument it would be almost impossible for an astronaut to accurately locate his position on the Moon and associate a sample or observation with a specific point. Lunar geologic maps made without such positioning would be seriously degraded in value, since to establish map locations we would have to depend on some type of dead reckoning or coarse Earth-tracking and reconstruction of the traverse based on voice communication."

Donald A. Beattie. Taking Science to the Moon: Lunar Experiments and the Apollo Program ( Locations 1614-1619).

So Erock, that is how they did it. Before the staged Apollo 11 flight, NASA landed an unmanned craft with such a device, one sensitive to laser targeting and also capable of automatically recording the coordinates of its location. The device's position was confirmed by targeting well before 07/20/1969.

The Lick Observatory team is given these coordinates,
00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E well before Reed determines coordinates anything close to these. And the rest as they say, "is bogus history".
 
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Note carefully in the Beattie quote above that he clearly states dead reckoning or coarse Earth-tracking and reconstruction of the traverse based on voice communication would not be a means whereby coordinates of the accuracy, 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E, could be obtained. We may therefore confidently conclude that such a method was not employed in the acquisition of the "Eagle's coordinates" and that these coordinates were obtained by other means. As a corollary to that, we may also confidently conclude all references to the employment of such techniques in obtaining the "Eagle's coordinates" were mistaken at best, and quite possibly, intentionally misleading.
 
Patrick1000 said:
So Erock, that is how they did it. Before the staged Apollo 11 flight, NASA landed an unmanned craft with such a device, one sensitive to laser targeting and also capable of automatically recording the coordinates of its location. The device's position was confirmed by targeting well before 07/20/1969.

The Lick Observatory team is given these coordinates,
00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E well before Reed determines coordinates anything close to these. And the rest as they say, "is bogus history".
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Absolutely fool-proof! The only thing this theory needs is a shred of evidence!

Stundied!
 
Patrick1000 said:
So Erock, that is how they did it. Before the staged Apollo 11 flight, NASA landed an unmanned craft with such a device, one sensitive to laser targeting and also capable of automatically recording the coordinates of its location.
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When did this mission take off? From where? What was the launch vehicle? Where was mission control?
 
So does anyone here have Orbiter installed? I scraped it off this box over a year ago 'cuz I needed the drive space.

Not that Patrick would be interested, nor does his posting style deserve the level of nerding out I'm considering, but I'd like to model the translunar coast abort with A8 and see if it's possible at any stage.

For those who haven't played with Orbiter, there's an interesting lesson to be learned: every trajectory is just an elliptical orbit. With enough velocity the ellipse is elongated to, effectively, infinite length (like blasting off with the Millennium Falcon at full power and heading toward Jupiter).

So the coast phase abort is just lowering velocity to lower apogee from the backside of the moon to somewhere closer to Earth, and still within Earth's gravitational Sphere of Influence. Some amount of lateral velocity needs to be imparted to make sure the craft will intersect the Earth in a safe and useful manner.

It does NOT involve accelerating the craft to the same velocity as TLI, unlike patrick's Battlestar Galactica bootlegger turn fantasy. Nor can it be carried out at just any old spot at random.
 
Note Matt, evidence is given there, very good evidence that the Eagle could not be found employing Earth tracking and reconstruction. How do you think the Eagle was found Matt? Who found the coordinates given to the Lick Observatory team on the night of 07/20/69 if Reed did not have them, if tracking could not provide them. Who had them?
 
Patrick1000 said:
Note Matt, evidence is given there, very good evidence that the Eagle could not be found employing Earth tracking and reconstruction. How do you think the Eagle was found Matt? Who found the coordinates given to the Lick Observatory team on the night of 07/20/69 if Reed did not have them, if tracking could not provide them. Who had them?
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Why are you assuming only Reed would have the coordinates? Because he said he and no one on his team gave it to them? Well, that's nice, but his wasn't the only team to work the Apollo 11 mission. Two other teams worked in the MOCR during and after the landing before he came on shift.

The MSFN received and distributed telemetry from the spacecraft so one out of the ten thousand people who had access to the MSFN network could have given Lick the coordinates. The backroom support guys. The PAO. Someone from Marshall, Langley, or KSC. As I have mentioned numerous times before, and you keep ignoring in the vain attempt to make it go away, you have ran into a brick in the road. It is not a road block, it's a minor hurdle. Step over it and keep going until you have exhausted all possibilities. Lick said NASA gave them the coordinates. Find out who that was then you will have something solid to insinuate. Don't give up!!!
 
sts60 said:
(bolding mine)

There are three versions of the crew debrief at the ALSJ site hosted by NASA: the original scanned format in sections, a text-converted PDF, and a pure HTML version. The statement is found in all three:



Poor fattydash. One would think that a few of his army of super-sock-friends could use some of their mad research skillz to help him out. Hey, I admit it's a lot of work; it took me at least 30 seconds to find these "doctored/redacted" copies online at both NASA and non-NASA sites.

Seriously, though, this shows rather clearly the poor guy's fixation on quote-mining and appeals to ignorance and ridicule (not to mention his inability to understand how sourcing works in research). He doesn't understand the topic, but he thinks by playing up some routine passage from a technical discussion and using scare quotes he will gain some traction. It's just embarrassing, though, when he trips over himself like this in his haste to claim a cover-up.
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If he were a boat you might say he's been pooped.
 
A second source to support the claim the Mission report Coordinates are Bogus

My oh my, hasn't this gotten interesting, so many great ways to expose this phony project. As I began with the coordinate thing, I'll pursue that for a bit. "The Case of Who Pooped In Space?" though worthy of our attention, I shall put off for a bit. Not that I am not so very keen on discussing the humor of last evening, wasn't it a laugh?, but for now, I think I'll leave it to my antagonists to contact their fearless leader, Jim Lovell, and request he have surgery to remove the moon rocks from his head, as according to his very own apologists, he hasn't managed to shake them out under his own power.

Matt asked about Reed. Matt, Reed was the flight dynamics officer, FIDO. It was his job to determine the LM's dynamic position relative to the CM to effect a successful rendezvous. Included in that would be his making the best possible determination of the Eagle's lunar coordinates. It was his responsibility to do this so that he could recommend the LM-CM trajectories for rendezvous. He was assisted by SELECT, the officer responsible for determining the best tracking source for the space ships. He was also assisted by DYNAMICS, the officer responsible for operating the computer I/O as they collected data and performed calculations with a successful lunar orbital rendezvous as their primary goal.

As well documented previously, by way of my referencing Reed's own first hand personal account of his Mission Control experience on 07/21/1969, the SELECT officer informed Reed when Reed came on duty that there was no favored tracking/location source to use for the Eagle's position. Coordinates as determined by 5 different methods did not agree with one another, "not even close" as per Reed's account in the book referenced. Additionally, all 5 of these coordinate measurements were no closer than 25,000 feet, or 4.7 miles, to the coordinates ultimately obtained by Reed by way of his reverse rendezvous calculation employing the LM rendezvous radar.

From one of my early posts, we see Reed calculated either 00 38 10 N and 23 30 00 E or 00 40 35 N and 23 25 43 E, the choice between the two dependent on whether or not one adds 2' 25" north and subtracts 4' 17" from the east coordinate as the foot note says one should definitely do when making the calculation using data from the trajectory accelerometer. The latter measurement, the trajectory accelerometer measurement found in the Apollo 11 Mission Report, being 00 41 14 north and 23 26 01 east. The LM coordinates as given to the Lick Observatory staff on the evening of 07/20/1969 were 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east on the evening

What can we say about this interesting pile of facts? Well first of all, we already know that David Reed says the trajectory accelerometer coordinates were not even closer to his. We also now know that the Apollo lunar scientist Donald Beattie, per his contact with USGS, knew the USGS staff viewed trajectory obtained coordinates unreliable. As such, we now have not one, but 2 sources, USGS/Donald Beattie AND David Reed, whose views on the coordinate matter support my claim that the trajectory value there, being essentially identical with the Lick Observatory value as given to Lick Observatory on 07/20/1969 and as confirmed as the TRUE coordinates of Tranquility Base on 08/01/1969, must have been forged. We now know from BOTH Beattie's testimony and Reed's that NASA's coordinate list in its Mission Report is a fraudulent list. Our certainty about this fraud has appropriately increased given our second source, Beattie/USGS. This source supporting the notion that the LM coordinates as determined by trajectory data as that data appears in the Mission Report could not have been obtained on the evening of 07/20/1969 by anyone, including SELECT/DYNAMICS/FIDO(Reed). NASA's Mission Report is a forgery and we now have two sources , reliable ones, to support this claim.

Additionally, as mentioned many times, Lick Observatory was given on the evening of 07/20/1969 the coordinates of Tranquility Base as ultimately determined to be true by the Lick staff later, 08/01/1969, when the LRRR was first successfully targeted. The reason this determination was not made until 08/01/1969 had to due with a software bug in the timing program.
As such, we conclude, the person who gave Lick Observatory the LRRR coordinates on the night of 07/20/1969 obtained them outside of the context of the assessment modalities available to the staff at Mission Control. The coordinates were known by this person BEFORE ANY RELIABLE CALCULATIONS TO OBTAIN THEM WERE MADE BY MISSION CONTROL STAFF. WE CONCLUDE THERE WAS FOREKNOWLEDGE OF THESE COORDINATES AND THAT APOLLO CONSEQUENTLY CANNOT POSSIBLY BE REAL.
 
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Patrick1000 said:
Note Matt, evidence is given there, very good evidence that the Eagle could not be found employing Earth tracking and reconstruction. How do you think the Eagle was found Matt? Who found the coordinates given to the Lick Observatory team on the night of 07/20/69 if Reed did not have them, if tracking could not provide them. Who had them?
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Regardless of where exactly they were on the moon, they were definitely on the moon.

n July of 1969 a ham radio operator and amateur radio-astronomer by the name of Larry Baysinger, W4EJA, accomplished an amazing feat. He independently detected radio transmissions from the Apollo 11 astronauts on the lunar surface.
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http://www.arrl.org/eavesdropping-on-apollo-11

This is a cool story. Baysinger is still around, I believe he works as a broadcast engineer for a Christian radio station in Florida or something. Google him and/or his ham ID.

He used published data and ordinary amateur radio practices to build a custom corner-horn antenna, 8'x12'. This kind of antenna is very directional -- you need to aim it at the signal source.

Baysinger says that on the night of the Apollo 11 landing, he and Rutherford had to essentially aim the antenna at the Moon by getting behind it and sighting it like a gun. This was difficult since the weather was cloudy and the Moon not easily visible. The antenna, which was originally built for Baysinger’s radio astronomy work, had a motorized steering mechanism but it had to be manually guided.

Its “beam” or “field of view” was such that, once pointed at the Moon, it could be let go for a little while, but pretty soon it would have to be reaimed because the motions of the Earth and Moon caused the Moon to drift out of the antenna’s field and the signal to be lost. In fact, this was one piece of evidence that the Apollo 11 signals the receiver picked up were indeed from the Moon — if the antenna was not kept aimed at the Moon, the signal disappeared. Baysinger’s wife and daughter watched the Apollo 11 landing on TV while Baysinger and Rutherford listened via Baysinger’s equipment. The signal on the home-built equipment came through approximately 5-10 seconds earlier than the signal on TV. It was noisy, but you could hear what was going on.
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Bold added.

Somehow, the reflectors made it to the moon, and somehow the audio was being broadcast from the moon. Hoax accusers like to make up a separate "unmanned" space program to put the reflectors on the moon, forgetting that this would create an entire other space program, ALL of whom would be "in" on the scam.
 
Patrick1000 said:
I doubt Reed would ever see Apollo as faked. The chance of him seeing the light is remote. He is in a sense too integral. Who wants to feel that you've been jacked to such an insane degree?
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You are being evasive. Does Reed have anything else to say that does not support your conclusions? Reed can not be convincing and unconvincing to you at the same time.

Actually you are jacking yourself ( I like that metaphor :) ) by talking out your butt, being evasive and contradicting yourself. You are being owned in this thread.

Ranb
 
Ranb, Reed is very convincing. Read the book. He says no one knew the coordinates and his staff found them. that is his statement. I believe it. I just do not believe there were any corresponding men on the moon.
 
Velocity drops off very quickly after TLI. At the end of TLI the capsule is traveling at about 11 km/s. One hour after TLI the capsule has slowed to 5.7 km/s. Twelve hours after TLI it has slowed to 2.0 km/sec.

Through trial and error I find an abort 5 hours after TLI is within the delta V of the CSM. From that position it is traveling 2.96 km/s with a flight path angle of 70.8° at a distance from the Earth of 73,700 km. A burn of 2.78 km/s in the proper direction would convert the original orbit into an orbit with that distance as the apogee and a perigee that would intercept the atmosphere (~400,000 feet, the "start" of the atmosphere). Perigee (i.e. re-entry) would occur 11 hours later. This burn leaves very little room to adjust when and where the capsule would re-enter.
 
Reed, shmeed. What about Baysinger? He heard the audio link between the surface and the CM. Armstrong and Aldrin were talking to Collins. At the moon.

Discuss, Patrick?
 
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