Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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A quick back-of-the-envelope indicates the total Delta-V of the S-IVb is under 12,000 MPH. That's a fair bit shy of your 25,000 MPH bootlegger reverse.

I haven't even bothered diving into the stupid bootlegger abort scenario because he doesn't even have the basic parameters right. His quoted reference (he doesn't own the book, by the way, he's looking at a google books reference ) is not a "primary source" but a layman's level work.

this diagram is from NASA's press release documents -- a set of lovely drawings showing basic schematics of various aspects of the flight. The time-critical abort looks like an about-face maneuver, but there's no analysis of delta-v and it's not to scale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Direct_Abort_Trajectory_-_Lunar_Landing_Symposium,_MSC_Jun66.jpg

The flight plan for every mission included constantly updated scenarios, where FIDO fed the current data back to the computer to get new trajectories. Every time they made an ullage burn, stopped the BBQ roll for tv transmission or made a course correction burn the entire rest of the mission was recalculated including refiguring direct abort and free return trajectories.

http://klabs.org/history/apollo_experience_reports/tn-d6847_apollo_abort_planning.pdf

Planning for the next generation of missions is making use of the volumes of data generated by Apollo --
http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/1903/4270/1/umi-umd-4138.pdf
 
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I just looked up the Command/Service module on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Command/Service_Module

It says the maximum delta V was 2,800 m/s. That's 6,263 miles per hour.

I checked here - http://nassp.sourceforge.net/wiki/SPS - in case I misunderstood the terminology, but it confirms that the service module's engine, the SPS, "provides the impulse for all velocity changes (ΔVs) throughout a mission".

So that implies to me that the SPS was capable of changing the CSM's velocity by a total of 6,236 miles per hour. In other words, it hadn't nearly enough fuel to slow the craft to a stop from 25,000 mph in one direction let alone accelerate it to 25,000 mph in another direction.

Patrick, are you quite sure you didn't miss off a vital part from your quotation? Something along the lines of "...but it couldn't do that, because there wasn't enough fuel"? Any help you can provide in explaining this discrepancy would be gratefully received.

The initial speed of TLI coast was just under 25000mph, but gradually decelerated until the craft came into the moon's sphere of influence, then began accelerating again.
 
We are just working from opposite ends.
No, we're not.


Well, since he doesn't state the thing that he believes you two are on opposite ends of, I like to imagine that it's an ignorance-knowledge scale where he's clearly—and by his own admission—on the ignorance end and people like you are on the opposite end.

Somehow he thinks those positions are equivalent, though.
 
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At about 55 hours and 40 minutes into the flight, the crew of Apollo 8 became the first humans to enter the gravitational sphere of influence of another celestial body.[18] In other words, the effect of the Moon's gravitational force on Apollo 8 became stronger than that of the Earth. At the time it happened, Apollo 8 was 38,759 miles (62,377 km) from the Moon and had a speed of 3,990 ft/s (1,220 m/s) relative to the Moon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_8#Lunar_sphere_of_influence
 
From here out I will engage Patrick100 from the perspective of the following assumption set: He's a high school kid who's found a silly playtoy to occupy dull moments of his summer break. But he may have the capacity to learn.

Thus, I will defy the usual JREF culture and attempt to be informative rather than just snarky and mean. Not sayin' I won't be snarky, but I'll try to frame my rudeness with relevant links and facts.

I don't give a crap what everyone else thinks.

So, I'll wait a bit for the breakfast shift at McD's to end . . .
 
You are late to the party Ranb and do not understand the point of debate. It had nothing to do with a CSM stopping on a dime. The point of contention was whether or not an abort option existed. I presented a reference from NASA and one from Lovell's book showing the option did exist.

Then you should not suggest that the CSM could turn on a dime. Why not enlighten us on the CSM capabilities?

Ranb
 
Patrick1000,

You have much to say about Reed and how his words purposively support your conclusion that the moon Apollo moon landings were faked. Your methods greatly resemble those the truthers use when they trot out FBI evidence to support their theory that the WTC was a CD, but ignore other FBI evidence that the collapse was caused by collision and fire.

So is Reed going to agree with you that Apollo was faked? Does Reed have anything else to say that does not support your conclusions? Why not contact him to let him know how you are using his work to show that he is a fraud. I'm sure he would be happy to hear from a kid who is trying to learn more about the space program that he helped build.

Ranb
 
Let's leave the poop for a moment and discuss an interesting report

I do have a bit more to say with respect to last evening's comedy. Certainly, nomuse's fine performance in his role as "embarrassment control specialist" can't go without his receiving some honors. I mean the guy is on beeper call, 24/7, ever ready to save his colleagues' rumps when they've stepped in Borman poop. But I am here to debate Apollo first and foremost, so let's leave my honoring nomuse and his efforts of last evening to a future time in another post. I'd like to take a quick look instead at a "funny" feature in the original Apollo 11 Technical Crew Report.

Here indeed is a gem of a find. Let's take a look at some astronaut chit-chat from the original version of the Apollo 11 Technical Crew Debriefing. Who knows, perhaps this document has a "ghost writer" too, Just like Jim Lovell's silly tale, APOLLO 13(subtitled "MY WEEK LONG DRIFT THROUGH CISLUNAR SPACE IN A FAKE ICEBOX"). Be that as it may, I trust the ever vigilant nomuse won't object to my use of this critically important NASA publication in proving Apollo to be 99.999 % charade, 0.001 % technical mumbo jumbo.

Shall we drop in on the boys at section 8-18 of the original Apollo 11 Technical Crew Debriefing Report? Here, our Eagle Scouts in training, fresh as can be, having showered and shaved post their 9 day effort to score the highly coveted "NASA Acting Merit Badge", begin to discuss a bit of a problem they'd had with the readout on the lunar module DEDA. The DEDA of course being the Abort Guidance System's readout window. A quote from the report;

"Aldrin: Let's see, there was one funny thing that I don't think we've mentioned. It was pretty minor. One of the strokes on the DEDA was not illuminated. Each character is made up of all these different strokes. One missing was in the middle character, and it would leave you in a position where you couldn't tell whether it was a three or a nine. I didn't realize at the time that there was any room for confusion. Later, in looking at some numbers, you could not really tell whether in fact that was a three or a nine.

Yes. You just need that one stroke to close it, and it becomes a nine. I got the bottom one. With this particular one missing, there was some doubt as to exactly what you had. That's true of any digit on any of those electrical switch displays.

Collins: Remember, we had one of those in the EMS.

Armstrong: Yes, that's right. Fortunately, the simulators usually got some out and you got used to putting up with that. But, it's a problem that really could get to you sometime if you misinterpret that number.

Aldrin: We missed putting the AGS time in there. We missed by 15 centiseconds hitting it right on, which I thought was very close. We did even better than that when we updated at 120 hours. "


So here we have a situation in which our favorite principals are discussing a problem with the readout on their DEDA. Of course it's not all that much of a major a problem. Actually, per Buzz, "pretty minor" really this business with not being able to read the DEDA. When the numbers in the window of the lunar module backup guidance system readout can't dependably be determined it really is no big deal. After all, the abort guidance system is only the system that double checks the primary system's function/performance and is also the lunar module guidance system that would be employed were an actual emergent abort be required on the occasion of distressed LM rescue. So when discussing the malfunction of the DEDA/readout on this rather trivial and unimportant system, the abort guidance system, we really shouldn't find ourselves being surprised at all by Aldrin's minimizing this trivial and "pretty minor" issue. I mean after all, when your life is on the line 240,000 miles away, who really cares about vital equipment performance?

"pretty minor", who can argue with Buzz's assessment there? He's the guy working on the NASA merit badge after all. If we can't trust his sense as to what might or might not be important in a situation like this, who now can we trust?

The interesting thing about the above passage from the Apollo 11 Technical Crew Debriefing is that it doesn't appear at all in the debriefing's more recent republication. If one looks at the NASA authorized Apollo 11 Technical Crew Debriefing Report republication, for example in the collection of NASA authorized reports published by Apogee, compiled from the NASA archives and edited by Robert Godwin, well I'll be a space monkey's great uncle, we see that these comments by Aldrin simply do not appear. I guess that little ol' problem with the readout out was so very "pretty minor" that it made no sense for that meticulous record fanatic Robert Godwin to include those minor comments of Aldrin's about such a minor problem in the republication of such an importantly minor document.

Of course, on the other hand, some smart aleck might have the temerity to suggest they're trying to hide something, like maybe the numbers in their records are not what they are supposed to be and so they make up this bogus story about the DEDA so that they can claim the fake numbers they have with respect to something or another, a trajectory for example, though trajectory need not be the case, actually do make sense.

Piloting a space ship is serious business. Obviously, saying "pretty minor" to not being able to read the abort guidance system's DEDA is "VERY BOGUS". So we have a case here of astronaut lying. Lying no less about something so very important that they're willing to risk major exposure/vulnerability by deleting the statement from the clearly DOCTORED/REDACTED Apollo 11 Technical Crew Debriefing Report republication.

My oh my, how those astronauts do lie.
 
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Ranb,

I doubt Reed would ever see Apollo as faked. The chance of him seeing the light is remote. He is in a sense too integral. Who wants to feel that you've been jacked to such an insane degree?

I have never considered writing to Reed. My friends and I have written long separate letters to the Apollo 11 astronauts individually. I believe 11 or 12 of us each sent individual letters to Armstrong , Collins and Aldrin. My letters were very long and I never heard back from any of the astronauts.
 
1) citations, please

2) what's your point of contention? How does the above relate in any way to your over all claims?
 
I have a serious question, Patrick100 (if you're serious, which I rather doubt):

Why would NASA include such obvious fakery as Borman's illness, the lading site location issue and the buggy display if they so obviously proved the whole thing a fake? Why would NASA script those issues at all? Why not have more "realistic" problems to be overcome?
 
For Ranb at #393 above. I don't suggest the CM can turn on a dime. I suggested and then showed NASA has a section in their Apollo 8 prelaunch report that indicates a translunar coast abort was an option in their mission whether one believes those missions to be fake or real. I typed the very words from Jim Lovell's book that discuss this option as well.

Why would I believe the thing can tun on a dime Ranb? I don't think it ever hit cislunar space.

Please check the posts leading up to my postings of the NASA reference and Lovell reference. The point of contention was whether direct aborts were contingencies of the Apollo missions. The technical details were and are of no matter to me, especially given my general perspective that the whole thing is fake.

Again, review the posts.

Finally, as you can see, I am moving on. If you all want to discuss abort contingencies be my guest. I do have a few final comments for nomuse and the others about the sociology of last night's comedy. But I care not go down the road we did with the telescope magnification issue. I prefer to debate the fraud. I will return to the Borman poop matter later once the poop particles have settled.

Ciao!
 
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For Ranb at #393 above. I don't suggest the CM can turn on a dime. I suggested and then showed NASA has a section in their Apollo 8 prelaunch report that indicates a translunar coast abort was an option in their mission whether one believes those missions to be fake or real. I typed the very words from Jim Lovell's book that discuss this option as well.

Why would I believe the thing can tun on a dime Ranb? I don't think it ever hit cislunar space.

Please check the posts leading up to my postings of the NASA reference and Lovell reference. The point of contention was whether direct aborts were contingencies of the Apollo missions. The technical details were and are of no matter to me, especially given my general perspective that the whole thing is fake.

Again, review the posts.

Finally, as you can see, I am moving on. If you all want to discuss abort contingencies be my guest. I do have a few final comments for nomuse and the others about the sociology of last night's comedy. But I care not go down the road we did with the telescope magnification issue. I prefer to debate the fraud. I will return to the Borman poop matter later once the poop particles have settled.

Ciao!

You are playing the same game as always. You say "The green sky has clouds in it."

Other posters point out the sky isn't green.

You go into giant walls of text defending the position that the sky has clouds in it.

The posters attempt to explain they do not disagree about clouds, they never had any problem with clouds, they were specifically questioning your usage of the term "green."

You begin lying openly, claiming you never, ever said "green" in the first place. Then you post again about clouds and declare victory.
 
X, the poop stuff, any details, are believed by script writers, writers in general, writers of any ilk, to make a story line more credible. Stuff like that would be anticipated. A writer would expect the poop were he or she reading this as script. If you are reading it as a scientist, you think, "why the poop?".

They tried to make the thing more "realistic". Pretty dumb, given the fallout.
 
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Fine nomuse, let's move on. If you have a comment to make about Aldrin's lying please do so. Otherwise you are free to go until one of your colleagues yet again steps in it.
 
X, the poop stuff, any details, are believed by script writers, writers in general, writers of any ilk, to make a story line more credible. Stuff like that would be anticipated. A writer would expect the poop were he or she reading this as script. If you are reading it as a scientist, you think, "why the poop?".

They tried to make the thing more "realistic". Pretty dumb, given the fallout.

Dear me, you have yet to provide any evidence, reasoning, or logic as to why the "hoaxers" would include such a thing.

Why not just do it perfectly? Why include such a random event?

So he got the runs, BFD.

It is documented, yet you claim this is proof of a "Hoax".

If the aim was to conceal the hoax, such data would not be in the public domain.

Do you not recognise the nonsense that they deliberately put this fact in the PD is evidence for a hoax, but is instead evidence for the reality of the Apollo missions?

Is it so hard for you to see honesty?
 
X, the poop stuff, any details, are believed by script writers, writers in general, writers of any ilk, to make a story line more credible. Stuff like that would be anticipated. A writer would expect the poop were he or she reading this as script. If you are reading it as a scientist, you think, "why the poop?".

They tried to make the thing more "realistic". Pretty dumb, given the fallout.


Yeah, I didn't think you were being serious.
 
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