Is Amway A Scam?

[icerat]

One of my pet peeves:

This ad here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cNzVH9zg00 says Quixtar makes 6.8 Billion, and helps over 3 million people own their own biz. A quick divide (rounding to 3 million) yields $2,267 each owner.

Fun trivia: how many people must be making ZILCH for just one to make 70k?
(tip: more than 30).

Not true at all. That figure is bonuses, ie volume rebates. There is additional retail margins not figured in to that calculation.

Don't forget that more than half of Amway's business is in China, where in 2009 average income for a city dweller was $2700/yr and for a country dweller $752/yr.

Not to mention that Amway's definition of "business owner" is broad to say the least. It has no real grounding on whether they're actually running a business or not, merely that they renewed. I'd be considered one of that 3 million and I'm not running an amway business.

30:1 or 264:1. It would be interesting to compare the chances when applying for a $70k or $600k job.

Seriously, why do so many people think "success" is based on chance?

 

[xjx388]

There are different formulations to abide by regulations in different markets, and every so often they do update the formulation as new science comes to light.

What's science got to do with it? For example, what science indicates that dried kale needs to be in supplements? How about, oregano powder, apple powder, broccoli extract, etc. Heck, let's stick with vitamins and minerals. Where is the science that indicates that, outside of specific deficiencies, that anyone needs to supplement at all? There is no scientific evidence that supplementing with any nutrient has any effect in people without deficiencies. Nutrilite (and any supplement peddler, really) is pure marketing fluff.

And let's address that NSF certification you brought up earlier. Why would anyone outside of professional athletes care about that? All it means is that there isn't anything in the supplements that would cause a positive result on banned substance tests. Big whoop! It is an utterly meaningless certification. Pure window dressing.

Amway's Nutrilite division owns 6400 acres of organic farms, in Washington, California, Brazil, and Mexico. I believe some new ones coming online in China in the next few years. They don't grow everything themselves, they have a certification process (nutricert) for third party suppliers.

More window dressing. What difference does "organic" make? Not a thing! If they are the manufacturer it only makes sense to have their own farms. It lowers their cost. All nutrients come from a farm or a laboratory. Amway is no different.

 

[xjx388]

Amway defenders can only justify their purchase of outrageously priced vitamins is that they are prestigious or have qualities that cannot be found anywhere else, despite the fact that there are no unbiased reviews to confirm it.

This is an important point. Icerat said this earlier:

Legitimate products marketed through MLM normally have some feature that differentiates them from competition and needs explaining.

What feature does Double X, Meadowbrook Toilet Paper, Creme LuXury, etc. have that:

1. Differentiates them from the competition and needs explaining?
2. Justifies the exorbitant prices Amway charges?

This is a fundamental part of Amway's scam: that their products are special. Clearly, the evidence shows that they are not.

Icerat seems to think that Amway is a good business because people who fail simply didn't really "open a business" or that they just didn't put forth the recommended amount of effort. That is despite loads of evidence from Amway itself, and countless testimonies. The reality is that many people do give it an honest try, quickly realize the system doesn't work and gets out. Many do not complain because they get sponsored by family and friends.

And this is the other piece of the scam: that Amway is selling a legitimate business opportunity. Clearly, the evidence shows that it is not.

So we have a bogus products sold through a bogus business opportunity. If it looks like a scam and sounds like a scam . . .

 

[icerat]

What's science got to do with it? For example, what science indicates that dried kale needs to be in supplements?

Defie "needs"

How about, oregano powder, apple powder, broccoli extract, etc.

The nutritional benefits of all of these are well researched. Clearly not by you.

Heck, let's stick with vitamins and minerals. Where is the science that indicates that, outside of specific deficiencies, that anyone needs to supplement at all?

Oh right, so outside the research supporting supplementing, is there any research supporting supplementing?

And let's address that NSF certification you brought up earlier. Why would anyone outside of professional athletes care about that?

Another stupid question that answers itself. Professional athletes care about it. Businesses wanting to market to professional athletes care about it.

 

[icerat]

This is an important point. Icerat said this earlier:

What feature does Double X, Meadowbrook Toilet Paper, Creme LuXury, etc. have that:

1. Differentiates them from the competition and needs explaining?

Meadowbook is not made by Amway. As already discussed in this forum it's very price competitive with similar products

Re differentiation - double X, primarily the phytonutrients. Re Creme LuXury, I'm no expert, but cardiolipin I believe.

2. Justifies the exorbitant prices Amway charges?

I've learned that often when someone complains about "exorbitant prices" what they're really saying is "I can't afford it".

 

[Joecool]

Meadowbook is not made by Amway. As already discussed in this forum it's very price competitive with similar products

I've learned that often when someone complains about "exorbitant prices" what they're really saying is "I can't afford it".

Meadowbrook is not competitive:
http://amwayscheme.blogspot.com/2011/08/walmartcom-versus-amwaycom-price.html

WalMart.com:
Scott Extra Soft Bath Tissue:
Lots of rolls, same great value and softness
24 double rolls = 48 single rolls
$10.98

Amway.com:
MEADOWBROOK® Bath Tissue
12 / 4 Packs, 48 rolls total
Item #: 744685
Retail Price $47.04

If people/IBOs were so dedicated to quality, people who quit Amway would keep buying Amway goods and Amway sales would keep growing year after year. But that isn't the case.

IBOs are loyal and dedicated to Amway goods when they believe that the Amway oportunity will make them fanatastically wealthy. Once that dream fades away, so goes their interest in Amway products. *shock*

Vitamins and household products are not the kinds of items the average person is going to be proud to have the label of "prestige" for. Only IBOs think this way. Say your neighbor drives home in a new Porsche. You tell him " I take Nutrilite double X" so there!

And while on that subject, are there are UNBIASED studies to show that users of double x are healthier or live longer than those who don't? I believe the answer is no.

 

[xjx388]

Defie "needs"

Is necessary.

The nutritional benefits of all of these are well researched. Clearly not by you.

Oh really? Evidence, please. Problem for you is: there is no evidence that supplementing with them provides any benefit. There is no evidence that drying them, processing them and stuffing them into a pill is the same thing as consuming them as actual fresh food. Good luck to you on this one; you have your work cut out for you.

Oh right, so outside the research supporting supplementing,
is there any research supporting supplementing? :roll eyes:

I think the internet just rolled its eyes on that one. . .

Anyway, no. In the absence of specific deficiencies, please present the evidence that shows a benefit to supplementation. Again, good luck.

Another stupid question that answers itself. Professional athletes care about it. Businesses wanting to market to professional athletes care about it.

But IBOs sell to the general public; very few are lucky enough to have pro athletes as customers. So why should the general public care about this NSF certification? It's obvious that this is just a meaningless certification used as window dressing.

 

[icerat]

Is necessary.

necessary for what?

Oh really? Evidence, please.

Try pubmed.

Problem for you is: there is no evidence that supplementing with them provides any benefit. There is no evidence that drying them, processing them and stuffing them into a pill is the same thing as consuming them as actual fresh food.

Actually there's lot of research into effects of processing on food.

Anyway, no. In the absence of specific deficiencies, please present the evidence that shows a benefit to supplementation. Again, good luck.

You realise what your saying here is "please provide evidence that food is beneficial"? Or is your assertion that say, dried fruit, is nutritionally bereft?

There are an enormous number of studies on the benefits of a nutrient rich diet. The specifics of what is most important are ridiculously difficult to tease out, perhaps impossible, thanks to the confounding effects of many many interactions.

But IBOs sell to the general public; very few are lucky enough to have pro athletes as customers.

Luck has little to do with it. In any case it's not only pro athletes. I competed in a sport that, at that time, was not professional and I was drug tested many times.

So why should the general public care about this NSF certification? It's obvious that this is just a meaningless certification used as window dressing.

Clearly NSF certification doesn't matter to you. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter to others.

 

[Joecool]

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/supplements/NU00198
By Mayo Clinic staff

Dietary supplements aren't intended to be a food substitute because they can't replicate all of the nutrients and benefits of whole foods, such as fruits and vegetables. So if you're generally healthy and eat a balanced diet, daily dietary supplements may not be worth the expense.

P.S. Amway is a poor business opportunity regardless of whether Amway's vitamins are worthy or not.

 

[jadebox]

This ad here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cNzVH9zg00 says Quixtar makes 6.8 Billion, and helps over 3 million people own their own biz. A quick divide (rounding to 3 million) yields $2,267 each owner.

Not true at all. That figure is bonuses, ie volume rebates. There is additional retail margins not figured in to that calculation.

Okay, so if the retail margin is 100%, that means the average Amway owner made .... $6.8 billion / 3 million or about $2,267 per owner. I'm glad we got that straightened out!

Actually, that's the average per owner. I'd wager a guess that the average owner made $0 or lost money.

-- Roger

 

[icerat]

Okay, so if the retail margin is 100%, that means the average Amway owner made .... $6.8 billion / 3 million or about $2,267 per owner. I'm glad we got that straightened out!

Huh? No. If retail margin was 100% then you'd double it.

Actually, that's the average per owner. I'd wager a guess that the average owner made $0 or lost money.

If you mean "average person who is registered with Amway", then you're probably correct and the statistics would support this, with the vast majority not attempting to sponsor or make retail sales, in other words not doing anything to make any money.

Still surprises me how many people think it's wrong that people doing nothing make no money

If you mean "average person operating an Amway business", then you're probably incorrect, if you've got any statistics to back up your assertion, I'd love to see it. We can take "IRS would allow them to deduct business expenses" as a starting point for "operating any Amway business".

 

[xjx388]

Meadowbook is not made by Amway. As already discussed in this forum it's very price competitive with similar products.

Hardly.

Amway.com says their Meadowbrook Gold Bath Tissue is $36.96 for 48 rolls.

Walmart.com has Quilted Northern Ultra Plush for $11.47 for 24 rolls = $22.94 for 48 rolls.

Doesn't sound too competitive to me. So what does an agent tell a prospective customer about Meadowbrook Gold Bath Tissue that would differentiate it from Quilted Northern or any of the other bath tissues on the market?

Re differentiation - double X, primarily the phytonutrients.

The nutritional benefits of phytonutrients are not in dispute. What is in dispute is the idea that supplementing with phytonutrients has any benefit. We all know we need to eat more fruits and vegetables, but there is no research that supports supplementing with extracts of fruits and vegetables has any benefits.

And do you seriously think that Double X is the only supplement with phytonutrients in it? This is not a differentiating factor. The fact is that there is NOTHING at all special about the Double X formulation.

Re Creme LuXury, I'm no expert, but cardiolipin I believe.

Cardiolipin has not been shown to have an effect when applied topically on the skin. I can't even find any research that shows it's even been considered. So if this is one of those special things that requires an agent to explain, I'd like to know what they tell their potential customers. Since they cannot make any legitimate claims for it, whatever they say would be, in nice terms, pure marketing fluff and window dressing to get someone to spend $340 on face cream. In honest terms, it's an intentional lie to scam someone (a family member or friend in most cases) out of their money.

I've learned that often when someone complains about "exorbitant prices" what they're really saying is "I can't afford it".

Whether or not I or anyone else can afford anything is irrelevant. The issue is that Amway products are overpriced and they are fraudulently marketed in order to justify their prices. What I've learned is that when someone makes a thinly veiled jab at someone, it's because they have no argument re: the actual issues.

 

[xjx388]

necessary for what?

To fill "nutritional gaps" as Amway says. Prove that supplements are effective in filling "nutritional gaps." Not deficiencies. Amway is very careful in avoiding that term since it would run afoul of the FDA.

Try pubmed.

I have. The burden of proof is on you.

Actually there's lot of research into effects of processing on food.

OK, let's see it.

You realise what your saying here is "please provide evidence that food is beneficial"? Or is your assertion that say, dried fruit, is nutritionally bereft?

My assertion is that supplements like Double X (or anything sold at Wal-Mart) have not been shown to have an effect in people without documented nutritional deficiencies. Food is beneficial; supplements, not so much. See the difference?

There are an enormous number of studies on the benefits of a nutrient rich diet. The specifics of what is most important are ridiculously difficult to tease out, perhaps impossible, thanks to the confounding effects of many many interactions.

Agreed. Thus, we cannot say that supplementing with resveratrol (a specific phytonutrient) will have an effect just because moderate consumption of wine (the food it's in) has been shown to be beneficial. There is plenty of research that consuming more fruits and veggies is beneficial, but no research that shows that extracts of specific compounds are beneficial. See the difference?

Luck has little to do with it. In any case it's not only pro athletes. I competed in a sport that, at that time, was not professional and I was drug tested many times.

Clearly NSF certification doesn't matter to you. Doesn't mean it doesn't matter to others.

Granted. My point is that it doesn't matter to the vast majority of those who will buy it, but it's trotted out as if it is important. When it was pitched to me, the NSF cert was made out to be an endorsement of the effectiveness of the supplement. It was only because I'm a skeptic that I bothered to look up what it actually meant.

All of which is fine and dandy. Amway is certainly not alone in making ridiculous claims. The point in all this product discussion is that Amway sells itself primarily as a business opportunity-which we've already shown to be terrible. Chances are a friend or family member fed you the marketing hype about these junk products and you were convinced that they were special. Then they convinced you to start your own business. Then you, personally, are supposed to take these junk products to your friends and family and sell them on how special they are. You are then supposed to get them to start their own businesses and sell their friends and families on these junk products. And on and on. Basically, Amway is creating a network of people who scam each other. And all statistics point to the fact that almost no one is making any money doing this except for those at the top of the pyramid.

 

[jadebox]

Huh? No. If retail margin was 100% then you'd double it.

I meant to say markup, but quoted your use of "margin." At a 100% markup (50% margin), the reseller makes the same amount that they pay to Amway. I don't know what the markup is on Amway products, but 100% seemed a reasonable guess.

If you mean "average person who is registered with Amway", then you're probably correct and the statistics would support this, with the vast majority not attempting to sponsor or make retail sales, in other words not doing anything to make any money.

Why aren't they doing anything when riches await them?

Still surprises me how many people think it's wrong that people doing nothing make no money

It surprises me that anyone would defend a company that makes empty promises and takes advantage of people.

If you mean "average person operating an Amway business", then you're probably incorrect, if you've got any statistics to back up your assertion, I'd love to see it. We can take "IRS would allow them to deduct business expenses" as a starting point for "operating any Amway business".

Wait a minute! You just agreed with me that the average victim of the Amway scam makes nothing ...

[...]you're probably correct and the statistics would support this, with the vast majority not attempting to sponsor or make retail sales, in other words not doing anything to make any money.

See. I wasn't imagining it!

-- Roger

 

[icerat]

Doesn't sound too competitive to me.

Amway was cheaper than costco and drugstore, but (apparently) more expensive than walmart.

So what does an agent tell a prospective customer about Meadowbrook Gold Bath Tissue that would differentiate it from Quilted Northern or any of the other bath tissues on the market?

They don't. The toilet paper isn't even in the catalogue targeted to customers.

The nutritional benefits of phytonutrients are not in dispute. What is in dispute is the idea that supplementing with phytonutrients has any benefit. We all know we need to eat more fruits and vegetables, but there is no research that supports supplementing with extracts of fruits and vegetables has any benefits.

So you're saying fruit and vegetables are important, but if I dry them they are not? Even when monitored for nutritional content?

Evidence?

And do you seriously think that Double X is the only supplement with phytonutrients in it? This is not a differentiating factor. The fact is that there is NOTHING at all special about the Double X formulation.

Evidence?

Cardiolipin has not been shown to have an effect when applied topically on the skin. I can't even find any research that shows it's even been considered.

You are aware that almost no proprietary commercial product has openly published research to support it? There are sensible commercial reasons for that.

Since they cannot make any legitimate claims for it

So you're an expert on cardiolipin and skin treatments? There are product claims on the site. If you have evidence they are fraudulent, I encourage you to report them to the appropriate authorities.

, whatever they say would be, in nice terms, pure marketing fluff and window dressing to get someone to spend $340 on face cream. In honest terms, it's an intentional lie to scam someone (a family member or friend in most cases) out of their money.

wow. Someone says something you have no knowledge about, so therefore it's a lie? Sorry - I'm an atheist, I don't believe in an omniscient being.

 

[icerat]

I meant to say markup, but quoted your use of "margin." At a 100% markup (50% margin), the reseller makes the same amount that they pay to Amway. I don't know what the markup is on Amway products, but 100% seemed a reasonable guess.

No idea what the ultimate markup is as we don't know Amway's manufacturing costs. The reported sales figures (US$9.2billion in 2010) is the cost of sale to Amway IBOs/members, who are then free to sell at whatever price they chose (or use it themselves of course). Average markup on Amway's products in the US is a fraction under 30%.

Why aren't they doing anything when riches await them?

it's hard work

It surprises me that anyone would defend a company that makes empty promises and takes advantage of people.

It surprises me people would make unsubstantiated claims about a company they know little about

Wait a minute! You just agreed with me that the average victim of the Amway scam makes nothing ...

Let me see. Buy product. Use product. Like product. Join Amway and get product cheaper. Want product. Buy product cheaper. Use product.

At which point in this am I supposed to be making money, according to you?

And at what point am I a victim?

 

[NewtonTrino]

I find it humorous how icerat thinks the burden of proof should be on the critics to prove amway doesn't work. We don't have to prove anything, you have to show that it's not a scam. So far you are failing miserably. If it's so great where are all the rich IBO's posting with details about their business? If I was selling a successful business opportunity I would be trumpeting my success, not hiding away from the critics.

Icerat of course doesn't count because we all know he's a failure as far as building a large amway business is concerned. Frankly I just consider this more evidence on how effective the brainwashing really is in amway. I've seen multiple cases of this kind of denial from people who weren't successful at it.

 

[Joecool]

I find it humorous how icerat thinks the burden of proof should be on the critics to prove amway doesn't work. We don't have to prove anything, you have to show that it's not a scam. So far you are failing miserably. If it's so great where are all the rich IBO's posting with details about their business? If I was selling a successful business opportunity I would be trumpeting my success, not hiding away from the critics.

Icerat of course doesn't count because we all know he's a failure as far as building a large amway business is concerned. Frankly I just consider this more evidence on how effective the brainwashing really is in amway. I've seen multiple cases of this kind of denial from people who weren't successful at it.

Icerat has this strange but unfounded point of view that most people join Amway only to get the products cheaper. I believe this is utterly false and he has no way of knowing why these people signed up. Maybe they have dreams of going diamond but because of Amway's reputation, cannot sponsor anyone so their business is simply buying products.

As for Amway products, simply google ebay + Amway products or craigslist and you can likely find Amway products for sale at cost or below. I have hear of IBOs also selling at cost so they don't have to absorb the $300 cost of 100 PV by themselves.

BTW, the critics already have proof provided by Amway. $115 average income (for active IBOs) and .5 (one half of one percent) of IBOs make it to Gold/Platinum where you can still lose money if dedicated to tools.

All this fluff about Amway's superior vitamins is a tactic by icerat to divert the discussion away from that fact that Amway is a poor business opportunity, or a scam when the tools are factored in.

 

[jadebox]

No idea what the ultimate markup is as we don't know Amway's manufacturing costs. The reported sales figures (US$9.2billion in 2010) is the cost of sale to Amway IBOs/members, who are then free to sell at whatever price they chose (or use it themselves of course). Average markup on Amway's products in the US is a fraction under 30%.

I was obviously referring to the retail markup. If it's really 30% as you say, then the per victim average income is much less than $2300. It's under $1000.

Let me see. Buy product. Use product. Like product. Join Amway and get product cheaper. Want product. Buy product cheaper. Use product.

Don't change the subject. We were talking about Amway, a company that sells "business opportunities." You're describing a "direct buy" club.

-- Roger

 

[icerat]

To fill "nutritional gaps" as Amway says. Prove that supplements are effective in filling "nutritional gaps." Not deficiencies. Amway is very careful in avoiding that term since it would run afoul of the FDA.

So if I'm low on say, vitamin C, supplementing my diet with an additional apple wouldn't help?

My assertion is that supplements like Double X (or anything sold at Wal-Mart) have not been shown to have an effect in people without documented nutritional deficiencies.

So are you suggesting supplements are of no use in people with undocumented deficiencies?

Food is beneficial; supplements, not so much. See the difference?

Why don't you consider kale, alfalfa, apples, asparagus, blueberry, grapes , oregano, rosemary, broccoli, cranberry, horseradish, pomegranate, prune, rosemary, parsely, sage, pomegranate etc food?

Agreed. Thus, we cannot say that supplementing with resveratrol (a specific phytonutrient) will have an effect just because moderate consumption of wine (the food it's in) has been shown to be beneficial. There is plenty of research that consuming more fruits and veggies is beneficial, but no research that shows that extracts of specific compounds are beneficial. See the difference?

Yup, which is why I like nutrilite, which includes food high in specific nutrients rather than isolated nutrients.

Granted. My point is that it doesn't matter to the vast majority of those who will buy it, but it's trotted out as if it is important.

You are aware that Double X is primarily targeted as a sports supplement? That's why they have folks like Kurt Warner, Kara Goucher, AC Milan, Marta, Adam Gilchrist etc etc as spokespersons.

There is an $11.30 multi supplement, with plant extracts, called Daily as well

When it was pitched to me, the NSF cert was made out to be an endorsement of the effectiveness of the supplement.

So whoever pitched the NSF certification to you in that manner is an idiot. So what? NSF sports certification is about it's safety re drug tests.

It was only because I'm a skeptic that I bothered to look up what it actually meant.

I didn't even know about it until you raised Double X here and I went and looked at the site.

All of which is fine and dandy. Amway is certainly not alone in making ridiculous claims.

You've yet to actual mention a ridiculous claim?

The point in all this product discussion is that Amway sells itself primarily as a business opportunity-which we've already shown to be terrible.

No, a business opportunity which you claim to be terrible by doing a bogus analysis based on false assumptions.

And all statistics point to the fact that almost no one is making any money doing this except for those at the top of the pyramid.

There's another one of those godwin-like statements that shows you are ignorant of how the model works. For crying out loud its (a) not even pyramid shaped (b) false to claim those "at the top" (whatever that is) make the most money.