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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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If you do not care about the inconsistency DC, I respect your opinion and move on. I only suggest you read first hand accounts by the principals involved in all of this. We can respectfully disagree. Best to you.
 
One last suggestion DC, if you do change your mind about matching primary source material with NASA's account, you should read the papers by the LRRR experiment's primary investigators. If you go to the journal Science's web site, search LRRR, or equivalents. The early papers, especially the January 1970 paper is at odds with NASA's account in an important way. Another inconsistency, and not a trivial one. Again, best to you.
 
For matt, no, just the opposite. I wrote in a post removed due to excessive length, a wall it was called, that the launch FIDO was clearly informed by his SELECT officer that NONE of the coordinates were anywhere close to one another. Above I pointed out in the Mission Report the coordinates are exceedingly close. Ergo, David Reed the FIDO or NASA is making up their side of the story. I say it is NASA as Reed has no reason to lie. For NASA, the reasons are as countless as the stars themselves. Look at Reed's writing and the Mission Report for yourself Matt. Ask your doc to premeditate you before you start in. I had to. It's nauseating to read this stuff for the first time.

Links, please.

SELECT told FIDO to take his pick. Are you misconstruing it as if he is saying "I have no idea", whereas he might have meant "They're all close enough you can use any source for your rendezvous calculations"?

I asked before and I'll ask again. How many miles apart were the sources from each other. How far was abort from primary? Primary to targeted site?. FIDO's calculation to accelerometer? Etc, etc?

How accurate did the position of the LM have to be known in order to rendezvous with the CSM?
 
One last suggestion DC, if you do change your mind about matching primary source material with NASA's account, you should read the papers by the LRRR experiment's primary investigators. If you go to the journal Science's web site, search LRRR, or equivalents. The early papers, especially the January 1970 paper is at odds with NASA's account in an important way. Another inconsistency, and not a trivial one. Again, best to you.

oh noo that sounds boring, i like YT videos about Reflecting studio lights on Astronot's helmets and the wires above the Astronots, that is entertaining.
 
I was under the impression I could not provide links. Am I wrong? Reed's essay can be found in, FROM THE TRENCHES OF MISSION CONTROL TO THE CRATERS OF THE MOON. Published in 2010, this compelling read features a collection of first person accounts by none other than the remarkable 20 somethings at the Mission Control consoles charged with the responsibility of tracking and navigating both the command module and Eagle. Each personal story is a gem, but the brightest and most edifying jewel of them all is H. David Reed's Chapter Three entitled, LOOKING BACK.

Search for Remington Stone's essay at the UC observatories web site MAtt. I had great quotes from both of those in the post removed. Sorry, really did try.
 
Erock, I have read that post. Noun 76 has nothing to do with position. 76 refers to a target delta V program. The meat of the Lost Bird inconsistencies has to do with the FIDO's account of what went on. Appeals to the voice transcript is not needed. What you have here is a guy saying flat out that NASA lied and not just any guy, their most valued launch FIDO. The Apollo debate is over Erock. Look at the references for yourself. I feel as bad now as you will soon enough. Better to read em' now and face the music. We may as well pull the plug on those clowns since we need the cash for other things anyway.

Well you seemed to think otherwise in the post at the top of this page...
http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=3203&page=27

" I encourage all to do the math for yourselves. It is instructive on many levels, not the least of which to get a real spine tingling feel for a bit of detail, as regards this extraordinary scheme. Keep in mind when you do this, this is the dark heart of this scam. This is its critical feature. THE CRITICAL FEATURE! You are not supposed to be able to read these numbers. DO NOT BE AFRAID! READ THEM WITH ME!"

Your 'critical feature' is wrong diddly wrong pal.:D

The Apollo debate is over, perhaps you should accept it gracefully, we went to the Moon.

Unless you have argument to dispute the position from the reconstructed accelerometer readings, what else is left of your case?

Not knowing where Eagle was definitely wouldn't have stopped NASA from passing on to LICK what they hoped was the most accurate reading would it?
 
Matt, this is from Reed's essay on his 07/21/1969 work as FIDO;

"After Apollo XI landed, as the World celebrated and sipped champagne, I slept in preparation for my shift prior to lunar launch. I would work with SELECT and DYNAMICS to get all the relative geometry down and work out the correct ignition time for return to the CSM. Piece of cake really. All we needed were landing site coordinates and a solid ephemeris on the CSM.

"I sat down at the console for that prelaunch shift and was debriefed by the previous team to complete hand-off. I probably had my second cup of coffee by then and got on the loop to SELECT to get the best landing site. I remember asking SELECT what he had for landing site coordinates. I’ll never forget his answer when he said, “take your pick FIDO!” I also remember not reacting too positively to his offer. He explained that we had five different sites. He said “we have MSFN(tracking radars), PNGS (primary LM guidance computer), AGS(backup LM guidance computer), the targeted landing site and, oh yes, the geologist have determined yet another site based upon the crew’s description of the landscape and correlating that with orbiter photos”. No two of these were even close to each other."




" It was the DYNAMICS computer controller, Pete Williams who catalyzed the solution. He said that if we only had rendezvous radar tracking data from the LM on the CSM we could work the problem backward. After all, we knew where the CSM was and the problem was a relative one between the CSM and the LM, not actually requiring latitude and longitude. To do this we would need to have the rendezvous radar (RR) turned on in the LM one revolution earlier than planned. Only two more passes of the CSM remained before Ascent ignition, before we had to have a solution to this problem! I remember taking my headset off and walking up to the Flight Director, Milt Windler to explain the situation. We only used that kind of face to face communication when we had a serious problem such as this. I detailed the problem as best we knew it and the process that we’d have to follow to get the data we needed, and why we had to start a rev early to finish the calculations and then find the critical lift-off time for lunar launch. I recall the CapCom instructing Buzz Aldrin that we needed him to perform the RR check early but I don’t believe that CapCom explained why, just another check was all. Shaft & trunnion angles were passed up to aid acquisition. Right on time as the CSM cleared the horizon we began seeing data. We counted the agonizing minutes as the telemetry came flowing in until the CSM was receding. Now we had the data we needed to run the problem (a rendezvous problem in reverse) and get the correct liftoff time*. And that’s what we used. Later we would find out just where were we on the surface. We were actually over 25,000 feet from the nearest of the other five choices we had! At 5,000-fps orbital velocity of the CSM that could have been up to a ten second error in liftoff. That would have meant we’d need a LOT of RCS (reaction control system fuel) to play catch up or slow down in a rather abnormal (I don’t recall training for this one) rendezvous situation."


So many hours before all of this goes on with Reed, the scientists at Lick Observatory are given Tranquility Base's exact coordinates Matt. Armstrong is actually on the moon! and they get they coordinates, way way way before Reed figures them out.

Not just any coordinates Matt, the Lick scientists get 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Getting interested in this angle Matt? Bet you are!
 
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The LM's AOT was of a power of ONE. As such, stars would be as faint when viewed throughout the AOT as with the naked eye, assuming the eye to be accommodated. Does any of this gibberish make any sense elbe? No, of course not. It is not consistent with any real experience.


Bzzzzz! Wrong! Magnification has absolutely nothing to do with light gathering power.
 
Erock, the Apollo launch FIDO is telling you the accelerometer data there in your copy of the Apollo 11 Mission Report is bogus. I am not telling you that, he is. David Reed says none of data available to him that morning was any good. As the data in that Mission Report Table looks very good, too good, I say NASA is lying and David Reed is telling the truth. You may disagree. And that is fine. I believe Reed, not NASA.
 
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I say NASA is lying and David Reed is telling the truth.

Prove it.

You may disagree. And that is fine. I believe Reed, not NASA.

I certainly do. Your whole contention is a riddle within a riddle. NASA supposedly fakes a mission, by faking an overshoot, faking a boulder area, for some unknown reason. Yet NASA does not have the presence of mind to fake accurate surface co-ordinates. What a load of cobblers.

Tell me, does Reed think it was a hoax?:rolleyes:
 
I cannot prove it with metaphysical certainty Erock, but common sense tells me Reed is telling the story straight up. Read the book for yourself. You can buy an e-copy for ten bucks. It's an important enough subject.

Reed is correct and NASA is lying their fannies off, or NASA's correct and Reed is out of his mind psychotic. I vote the former. There is no middle ground here.
 
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Patrick1000, do you believe they never went to the moon? or that just this particular mission was a hoax?
 
Lost Bird Proves Apollo Inauthenticity

I am a scientist of not insignificant abilities, and once upon an uncaring self, thought Apollo true. When I looked at Apollo photos, I saw astronauts on the moon. When I saw a picture of a "moon rock", I saw a MOON ROCK. Then, for reasons not entirely clear to me, just 3 months ago, I decided to read the story. Not the story as told by so called HB types, but the story as told by NASA, by the astronauts, by the Apollo scientists. I carefully read the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript, the Apollo 11 Technical Debriefing, the Apollo 11 Mission Report and on and on and on. I read the story as presented in NASA's official narrative. Reading and reading and reading NASA's own materials, I came to know the story of Apollo 11 as anyone would reading with an open and reasonably clear mind. The fable as told by Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins and those supporting them in Florida, Houston and in the Pacific at the time of their recovery, is indeed a fable straining the credulity of any sensible person. Just take a look for yourself, you'll agree. You need only reason's bright light. NASA's Apollo tale is in no need of deconstruction by any external agent, by any outside review or examination. NASA's own account is one of an adventure that implodes with comical inconsistencies.

But of course, if one pauses, internal incoherence is precisely what one would expect from a bogus telling of an Apollo moon landing. Such would be a bogus telling's hallmark. Were Apollo real, the converse would of course be the case. Oh sure, there would be areas of confusion where things were not known, but there would not be telling the story one way to achieve some effect or end, and then reversing field in outer space and coming up with contradictory nonsense because the first batch of jive you mixed up was found to be just that, JIVE, or perhaps because given the circumstances the phony story's telling required 2 versions of events in places given the extraordinary circumstances.

The latter proved to be the case with the "Apollo 11 Mission". The presence of LUNA 15 pressured the Apollo 11 narrative into its having to commit to 2 utterly different tellings. In all likelihood the lunar laser retroreflector was already planted prior to 07/20/1969. I say this because if one considers the facts as I will detail in future posts, it makes more sense than anything else. That said, retroreflector present or not, the exposure of of Apollo's fraudulence by LUNA's camera was nevertheless a major concern, retroreflector already "planted" at Tranquility Base or not. There were no astronauts for LUNA to photograph. The Russians probably knew this, at least they were appropriately suspicious. The fact that the Apollo 11 official narrative features simultaneous accounts of BOTH lack of knowledge as regards the astronauts' location on the surface of the moon AND utter lack of that knowledge, leads the clear thinking open minded individual to the disappointing conclusion that as both stories, as both tellings, cannot possibly be true, neither is. Apollo is fraudulent. The key to coming to terms with the horrifying notion of inauthenticity in the particular case of Apollo 11 has to do with one's recognizing this particular element of this particular mission. The Russians were there to spoil the party. Studied from such a vantage, the whole Apollo 11 tale, including the extraordinary inconsistencies, makes eminent sense. Studied from such a vantage, we the curious become oriented to the forensics of the Apollo fraud within nanoseconds.
 
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We were actually over 25,000 feet from the nearest of the other five choices we had! At 5,000-fps orbital velocity of the CSM that could have been up to a ten second error in liftoff. That would have meant we’d need a LOT of RCS (reaction control system fuel) to play catch up or slow down in a rather abnormal (I don’t recall training for this one) rendezvous situation."
No additional fuel would be required. All the LM would need to do is stay in its catch-up orbit a little shorter or a little longer before initiating the co-elliptical maneuver. This guy is trying to overly dramatize the story.

So many hours before all of this goes on with Reed, the scientists at Lick Observatory are given Tranquility Base's exact coordinates
"Exact"? No, they were given one position that was close enough for a laser to find the reflector. This may come as a shock to you but lasers beam spread out. They did not have to point at a one square foot of real estate to get a return signal; just within a mile or two. With a little searching it wouldn't have taken long to find the reflector.

Not just any coordinates Matt, the Lick scientists get 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Getting interested in this angle Matt? Bet you are!

Not even remotely. Your claim is extremely droll. You are making a mountain out of a molehill and it's getting quite tedious, especially your proclamations of victory. You are used to driving around with a GPS and plying with Google Earth and so you have no understanding of navigational errors. 300 years ago the British parliament offered £10,000 to anyone who could determine a ship's longitude within 60 miles. I was an expert in celestial navigation in the US Navy and my star sights usually came within 2 nautical miles of our GPS position. And that was using a $1000 top-shelf sextant. Convert all those position pairs into miles and you'll see there is nothing spectacular about your claims.
 
DC, none of the landings are "real". Apollo 11 is a good one, a sort of fun one, to study though because of the Apollo 11 post flight press conference, the LUNA factor, Remington Stone's great writing about the LRRR issue and the SCIENCE articles by the LRRR principal investigators that relate to the first targetings. I like Apollo 11 the most. It has the richest background because of its primacy. The materials with regard to Apollo 11 are more detailed and plentiful.
 
Matt, be careful about doubting what Reed is saying. If you read the entirety of the book, you'll see these guys DON'T exaggerate. He is the most capable of all the launch FIDOs. That said, I love your style in challenging everything. Go for it!
 
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OK, matt, have it your way. I encourage you to read up on the subject. Ask around. I'll leave the issue be from my end.
 
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