Vegetarianism versus Veganism versus Meat Eating

[Furcifer]

Oh my. Paint with an overly broad brush much?

Indeed, I would be quite remiss for pointing out all vegetarians don't eat meat. The nerve of me painting them all with the same brush.

But your post does beg the question: do you think this inherent negativity is genetic or cultural?

No, it's inherently negative by being exclusionary.

Considering your negativity, one might suspect that you're a closet tofu eater.

I think this observation may have gone well over your head.

Maybe I can simplify things a bit for you. People who say "don't do this, don't do that" tend to sound more "preachy" than people who are saying "you should try everything, you should do what you like". This is an example negative and positive reinforcement.

That's why when I was a vegetarian I refrained from telling people what I felt they shouldn't eat, and focused on what I felt "tastes good". For the most part people actually respond well to something that tastes good, regardless of whether or not it was vegetarian.

Like they said "meat tastes good". If you can make something that "tastes better" people will eat it. Until then the vast majority of people are prepared to kill and eat animals.

 

[citizenzen]

Vegetarians are much more to tell you why you shouldn't do something.

That's why when I was a vegetarian I refrained from telling people what I felt they shouldn't eat ...

Wow. So you were the one or two gifted vegetarians who didn't give in to their inherently negative reasoning.

You are indeed an extraordinary person.

[bows deeply]

 

[corbin]

I respect vegetarianism as long as it is done for moral reasons instead of purported health reasons.

 

[Furcifer]

So you were the one or two gifted vegetarians who didn't give in to their inherently negative reasoning.

Nope, you continue to miss the point altogether. All vegetarians have excluded meat from their diets. It's choosing not to do something that makes it exclusionary. They're "subtracting" something from the typically omnivorous diet.

You are indeed an extraordinary person.

[bows deeply]

There's nothing particularly extraordinary about choosing to focus on what you've gained instead of telling everyone what they're doing wrong.

 

[citizenzen]

There's nothing particularly extraordinary about choosing to focus on what you've gained instead of telling everyone what they're doing wrong.

Yet as you said, most vegetarians cannot escape this folly, while you did.

Master.

[bows even more deeply]

 

[slingblade]

Yet as you said, most vegetarians cannot escape this folly, while you did.

Master.

[bows even more deeply]

That's a great argument. What's it about?

 

[epepke]

What I'm saying is that I think most people who talk about "preachy" vegetarians are projecting. Seriously, when was the last time a vegetarian preached at you? PETA doesn't count.

I have met almost no preachy vegetarians. About the most annoying thing they do is when they cook you something, after you eat it, there seems to be a compulsion toward saying "Didja miss the meat? Huh? Huh? Didga?" That's not a big deal, though.

Vegans, on the other hand... I've encountered a few pleasant vegans online but never in person. I'd like to, because I dislike having stereotypes, but all the ones I've met in person have been rather of a type.

 

[Furcifer]

Yet as you said, most vegetarians cannot escape this folly, while you did.

Where did I say most? I think many do, and that's why there are varying opinions on how "preachy" vegetarians can be. "Most" however would probably be wrong, as "most" of the vegetarians I've met do so for religious reasons. They don't really try and justify it or get preachy about it, they just say it's part of their religion and leave it at that.

 

[Furcifer]

I'd like to, because I dislike having stereotypes, but all the ones I've met in person have been rather of a type.

The same here. Although I haven't met enough to say for certain, the ones I have met have all been what I would call "activists".

 

[Cain]

This thread is dumb.

People already accept animal rights, but only apply it to the sorts of animals they see, or the practices they find revolting and do not engage in. There's an important distinction in this last part: they do necessarily not refuse to attend dogfights BECAUSE they find it disgusting. They find it disgusting because that's the way they were brought up.

The reason people eat meat is because they enjoy the taste. They enjoy the taste because of decades of habit and millennia of evolution. It's a loser argument to connect their delicious meal to the suffering of a nameless animal a thousand miles away, one who may or not have lived and died in poor circumstances. Almost everyone has the vague sentiment she or he is a good person (on the whole) and would never contribute to atrocities. And besides, there are laws, and we've been socialized to eat meat, and behold our incisors!

For this board there's the added challenge of "what's the point?" Suppose you do make the conscious choice to lower your perceived quality of life because of some vague suffering by a non-human mammal who lived and died out of state... what's the benefit? You're not going to heaven. You're not gaining social status. The abstract realization that animal suffering may have declined the slightest bit will never, ever be enough for most humans.

Apes with pants already struggle to change their diet for reasons owing to either health or vanity, so how could they possibly change it for morality? A morality on the margins, far from winning over the public. Many apes with pants cannot delay gratification when it comes to basic finances, so how are they supposed to surrender options? How are they supposed to surrender what is very often the highlight of their evening? Why make that personal sacrifice when almost everyone else enjoys care-free meat? How much good are you even really doing? I read somewhere that there are three times as many ex-vegetarians as vegetarians.

There will be widespread change only when someone creates a cost-effective lab-grown meat alternative, one that consistently beats "the real thing" in taste tests. And even then it'll take generations.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Now -that- is anthropomorphy....

<snip>

To some extent. However, I wasn't trying to claim that cows have an identical reaction to humans put through similar treatment, but instead trying to highlight that as both are mammals, exploiting in cows a common biological feature (i.e. pregnancy and lactation) between the two species that would cause humans to experience extreme suffering is likely to cause cows to suffer in some way as well.

BTW, how is it possible to infer suffering in a non-human animal without anthropomorphism?

 

[Belz...]

A whole class of humans, including infants, toddlers, young chilren, mentally impaired, very elderly, mentally ill, and others are considered morally equal to fully rational, adult humans.

No, they're not. Since when do children have the same rights as adults, for instance ? We're discussing rights, aren't we ?

It sounds to me like you've never spoken to a vegan or actually bothered to ask them how they justify their moral beliefs.

Your impression is incorrect.

But even if you were, what would that have to do with what I said ?

To put it simply, the mainstream animal rights movement is based on a principle that biologically life, in and of itself, does not matter morally; instead, biographical life, that is, having an ability to experience satisfaction and suffering, percieve yourself existing over time, have memories, experience yourself in the first person shape the way we treat human and non-human animals.

I suppose that excludes ants, then ?

I don't know if you've done so consciously or not, but at least be aware that you're refuting a point of view that no vegan even holds in the first place.

Perhaps you completely missed the post I was answering to, but that post was implying that the killing ITSELF was the harm. I don't see how it's a strawman.

Ask yourself, on what basis is a human being harmed for being killed?

Why should I ? Why should moral considerations that apply to my species apply to other species which don't share some of the most important characteristics that make my species eligible for those considerations ?

But I also notice you ignored the fact that the bit you quoted showed that I wasn't arguing against a strawman.

I can think of at least half a dozen ways, most importantly that it deprive a person of all experiences, all future happiness, prevents from satisfying any future interests or goals in the most categorical way possible; all of those things depend on a person's continued existence.

All things other animals do not have.

Sounds like backtracking to me. Your initial statement said "Rights also come with responsibilities, and animals cannot be held responsible for their actions". Clearly, you believe that infants have a right to life, and that their right to life follows from some responsibility their accountable for.

My point was that merely being alive wasn't an indication that the lifeform had rights just like human adults. I still believe we should avoid causing pain and anguish to animals. But when you want a burger, something has to die, and it doesn't matter if that thing is a plant or a cow.

 

[Belz...]

I'm a vegetarian who has never preached to a single person, yet I am subject to regular evangelizing from meat eaters.

Well you won't get it from me. Eat whatever you like.

 

[Belz...]

I don't think the first part follows, but I do dislike harming or killing plants. But some things are necessary.

I do dislike killing animals, too. Empathy, I guess. I was simply commenting that the killing, per se, applies to anything you kill. There has to be something else that makes it bad to kill animals and not plants.

It's just that the moral argument against eating meat bugs me. I don't buy it. There are far better reasons to eat less or no meat, in my opinion.

 

[Belz...]

Wow. So you were the one or two gifted vegetarians who didn't give in to their inherently negative reasoning.

You are indeed an extraordinary person.

[bows deeply]

Talk about completely missing the point and being condescending in the process.

 

[Belz...]

To some extent. However, I wasn't trying to claim that cows have an identical reaction to humans put through similar treatment, but instead trying to highlight that as both are mammals, exploiting in cows a common biological feature (i.e. pregnancy and lactation) between the two species that would cause humans to experience extreme suffering is likely to cause cows to suffer in some way as well.

BTW, how is it possible to infer suffering in a non-human animal without anthropomorphism?

There's a good chance that every conception we have is somewhat antropomorphised...

 

[Rat]

I have met almost no preachy vegetarians. About the most annoying thing they do is when they cook you something, after you eat it, there seems to be a compulsion toward saying "Didja miss the meat? Huh? Huh? Didga?" That's not a big deal, though.

Vegans, on the other hand... I've encountered a few pleasant vegans online but never in person. I'd like to, because I dislike having stereotypes, but all the ones I've met in person have been rather of a type.

I'm not sure where you live, but is it normal there for everyone to carry a sign listing their dietary preferences?

 

[Belz...]

I'm not sure where you live, but is it normal there for everyone to carry a sign listing their dietary preferences?

You know how in North America, food products must include ingredients and nutritional information ? Well, in Denmark they have to tattoo your culinary preferences on your back.

 

[citizenzen]

Talk about completely missing the point and being condescending in the process.

Seems to me the point was Furcifer somehow knows how many vegetarians and meat-eaters discuss an issue and the inherent quality of their rationality.

In order to know these things, Furcifer most possess knowledge or mental capabilities that are God-like.

Hence my deep and reverential bows.

However, if he were simply pulling those opinions from his behind and making hasty generalizations about people that he can't possibly back up with any real facts, then I take back my bows.

But when possibly dealing with deities, one should always play it safe.

He might smote me with a bolt of lightening.

 

[dafydd]

Vegetarianism is harmless enough though it is apt to fill a man with wind and self-righteousness. ~Robert Hutchison, address to the British Medical Association, 1930

Vegetarian - that's an old Indian word meaning "lousy hunter." ~Andy Rooney


I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants. ~A. Whitney Brown

Everyone's a pacifist between wars. It's like being a vegetarian between meals.- Colman McCarthy