PETA and Foie Gras

[Meed]

Ahh, OK. Unfortunately I don't know how much the Canadian portion is of the total. I know it's about 200 000 livers coming from 3 farms (assuming any of the smaller ones only deal locally). Again, I don't know which percentage comes from the specific farm in question, perhaps 1/2.

The three farms you mention account for 72% of the foie gras imported into the US and 82% of the foie gras sold in Canada, based on what I've thread.

When you start crunching the numbers, the actual percentage of the total affected by "questionable" farming practices starts to drop. I wouldn't be surprised if it's "industry average". There's always going to be a few bad apples.

Is there a way of determining which farms use "questionable" practices?

I honestly think PETA is using this because gavage looks a bit disturbing and can incite the most reaction in people. Is it a humane practice? By all accounts it is. Most of what they attribute to gavage is actually a result of raising domesticated waterfowl.

Well again, it's not just PETA. The gavage is hardly the only issue. And "by all accounts it is" isn't accurate. The EU Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Welfare didn't come to this conclusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy). Of course, that was in 1998 and I'm not aware if or how much the practice has changed since then.

 

[Soymilk420]

I find this statement from an anti-foie gras activist telling:

Source: http://www.nofoiegras.org/


May I point out that, even if these statistics are correct, just because 72% of the foie gras that is imported into the U.S. comes from Canada, that does not indicate that the majority of foie gras consumed in America comes from Canada, nor does it indicate that one cannot consciously purchase foie gras made at Hudson Valley and other humane farms.

Bourdain's tour was televised and they knew that ahead of time and is not the only source of video we have of Hudson valley. There have been undercover investigation of Hudson Vally as well (I believe it was two or more but i cant find the other video), please compare the footage for yourselves

COK Goes Undercover Inside Hudson Valley Foie Gras
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNJDZm1bgVA

 

[Soymilk420]

Here is another account and pictures of an investigation of Hudson Valley Farms in which 15 birds were rescued

At Hudson Valley Foie Gras, GourmetCruelty.com investigators documented egregious examples of animal cruelty—ducks blinded by disease and infection, ducks languishing in their own blood and vomit, and ducks confined side by side with rotting corpses.

http://www.gourmetcruelty.com/inv.php
and here is the video that came out of the investigation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbLMZWiARkI
(note only part 1, the rest is on youtube)

Folks need to stop pretending Hudson Vally is so special

 

[redfarmer]

Still, one person's written opinion and no scientific testing is very limited as far as evidence goes...

How about his photographic testimony?

The Village Voice - How Foie Gras Gets Made

And if you don't trust her, may I suggest one of the unannounced visits you praised Hudson Valley for allowing, with any expert you would like?

...especially when scientific studies have been done on the welfare of foie gras ducks in the past (e.g. the EU Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Welfare mentioned in the article).

You do realize the EU report does not conclude that foie gras should be outlawed, right? It only suggests reforms, reforms that seem to accurately describe the conditions reported at Hudson Valley. And the report was based on visits to European foie gras farms, which may or may not have the same conditions as American foie gras farms (if the Village Voice article is any indication, they do not).

As for the actual force feeding being harmful or not, the fatality rate mentioned by the article of 5% (1 out of 20) is actually quite large. That is about 25 times higher than the 0.2% that would be expected in normal ducks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy) and would seem to indicate that the force feeding is indeed harmful.

I don't trust out of context statistics. I would want to know the living conditions for both sets of birds, what vets say the birds actually died of, etc. I would also want to know whether both numbers, which are quoted in two different sources, were obtained using the same methods. A number by itself does not indicate force feeding is harmful. And it does not, by itself, indicate force feeding is cruel.

Having seen pictures of normal livers compared with foie gras livers and the massive difference, this is not intuitively surprising.

And once again, you're describing evidence you've seen from the Canadian farm, which is a bit dishonest when discussing this article on the conditions of a different farm in a different country. You also seem to be missing the point, that your prized photos and videos from the Canadian farm do not prove that foie gras farming is inherently cruel. Both Hudson Valley and a neutral scientist at Cornell contend that Hudson Valley does not feed the ducks above the physiological limit of the birds. Do you have evidence that contradicts this?

It is also worth noting that not all individuals who've toured US foie gras farms have come away with the same impression. A contrasting example is the chef I mentioned earlier in the thread who toured 3 US farms and concluded foie gras was not humane, despite having served it as his restaurant and including numerous recipes for it in his recipe book. This chef is also of the opinion that animal rights groups are "idiots" and "pathetic".

The Village Voice author openly lists the experts she contacted before and after the visit and the criteria they gave her, including the animal rights representative she contacted. What experts did your chef contact for what would constitute cruelty on ducks? If he didn't contact experts, why does he feel he's better fit to judge the situation than a scientist from Cornell, a veterinarian whose opinions are esteemed by both PETA and McDonalds, and an avian scientist? The Village Voice author did an incredible job doing her homework before going on the tour.

I write from the perspective of a non-expert who is near-vegan. While I think non foie gras farms are inhumane I think foie gras force feeding is clearly more inhumane than normal practice.[/QUOTE]

You've still given no reason to believe that foie gras production is inherently cruel. You've only given a case for why a particular farm in Canada uses cruel methods. I wish I could spell out the difference more but I don't know what else to say to get it home. It's a logical fallacy to conclude from some A is the case that all A is the case.

The three farms you mention account for 72% of the foie gras imported into the US and 82% of the foie gras sold in Canada, based on what I've thread.

Based on what people who have actually purchased the stuff on this thread have said, the product is clearly marked with its farm of origin. One poster indicated that he buys foie gras manufactured at Hudson Valley and that the product is clearly marked as such.

Is there a way of determining which farms use "questionable" practices?

Yes...visit them as the Village Voice author visited Hudson Valley.

 

[redfarmer]

I find it interesting that the summary of the anti side here is "I don't know enough about it so it should be banned".

It seems to be more like:

-I don't like what's going on in the PETA/animal rights videos.
-Competing views exist as to whether conditions are this bad in all foie gras farms.
-Rather than weigh the evidence and positions of both views and critically think about the subject, I choose to go with the view that most fits my preconceived notions about foie gras.
-Therefore, all foie gras is bad.
-Therefore, all foie gras should be banned.

In the interest of full disclosure, largely for emotional reasons because of PETA videos, I was once a vegetarian and, even after I started eating meat again, I still found foods like foie gras and veal to be horrifying. The more I started investigating foie gras and questioning the claims by PETA and other animal rights organizations, however, the more I begin to question whether foie gras is inherently bad, or whether it was another case of PETA claiming, "some x are bad, therefore all x are bad".

I started this thread to clarify my own thinking and make sure I wasn't missing anything. The more I keep seeing people harp about the Canadian videos after evidence is presented that not all foie gras farms are run like that, the more I become convinced that foie gras in America is receiving a bad name unjustly.

 

[Cain]

I think you're confusing life expectancy with longevity.

I don't think so, but it doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not they taste good. Mmmmmm, yummy duck liver.

Gavage has been going on for 5000 years. There's nothing wrong with the practice.

Wow, that's almost as long as slavery.

I'm sure that people would be totally cool if, while on holiday, their pets were treated like these ducks, especially if they planned on eating their pets upon returning. We all feel exhausted the day after holiday. We know the animals are well-treated as they go to hospital more than most people!

 

[Cain]

I also gotta support the above comments about how peta people are insane. Unhinged. Next thing you know they'll draw a page from that nutjob attention-whore William Lloyd Garrison, the nitwit who publicly burned a copy of the Constitution, declaring it a "pact with the devil." Idiot.

Such tactics have no place in our civilized society.

 

[citizenzen]

I also gotta support the above comments about how peta people are insane. Unhinged.

I'd like to urge members here at JREF to stop calling entire groups of individuals "insane", "crazy", or "unhinged". It exposes your position as lazy and fallacious ... a position based on hyperbolic emotionalism instead of intelligence and rationality.

I am not, and have never been a member of PETA. But I know better than to paint two million people with such a broad, sweeping brush.

We can do better than that. I urge everyone here to try.

 

[RandFan]

I'd like to urge members here at JREF to stop calling entire groups of individuals "insane", "crazy", or "unhinged". It exposes your position as lazy and fallacious ... a position based on hyperbolic emotionalism instead of intelligence and rationality.

I am not, and have never been a member of PETA. But I know better than to paint two million people with such a broad, sweeping brush.

We can do better than that. I urge everyone here to try.

I've said as much many times. I agree. Just bear in mind you will likely always have a whole host of characters in social networking. Also, not everyone who responds like that (myself included) is dogmatic or resistant to productive discussion or refuse to acknowledge or consider opposing views. It's just hat we are human and we have our buttons pushed from time to time (I'm looking in the mirror). Take it in stride. It's a very good conversation and I appreciate that you started the thread.

 

[citizenzen]

Take it in stride.

I 'll try to.

I do understand that political forums are social network's mud wrestling.

So I don't have too high of expectations.

But I might drop a friendly reminder from time to time anyway.

 

[RandFan]

I 'll try to.

I do understand that political forums are social network's mud wrestling.

So I don't have too high of expectations.

But I might drop a friendly reminder from time to time anyway.

 

[Furcifer]

We know the animals are well-treated as they go to hospital more than most people!

Actually the animals on these large farms get house calls!

You either understand the difference between livestock and pets or you don't.

 

[Furcifer]

Is there a way of determining which farms use "questionable" practices?

Yes. There are laws, both criminal and part of the meat inspection act that outline how animals are to be treated. If they aren't breaking the law then they aren't using questionable practices.

 

[Soymilk420]

And if you don't trust her, may I suggest one of the unannounced visits you praised Hudson Valley for allowing, with any expert you would like?

Like the two undercover investigation videos I posted of Hudson Vally that folks are ignoring?
Folks are acting as if the issue of Hudson Vally being clearly better than other farms is settle by a video from Bourdain and an article from the Village Voice, both were announced visits in which they knew there would be cameras.
But how about when they don't know they are on camera at all.

COK Goes Undercover Inside Hudson Valley Foie Gras
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNJDZm1bgVA


GourmetCruelty investigation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbLMZWiARkI
(note only part 1, the rest is on youtube)
http://www.gourmetcruelty.com/inv.php <--- more pics and info

 

[Cain]

I'd like to urge members here at JREF to stop calling entire groups of individuals "insane", "crazy", or "unhinged". It exposes your position as lazy and fallacious ... a position based on hyperbolic emotionalism instead of intelligence and rationality.

Thank goodness we have people as discerning as you out on patrol.

You either understand the difference between livestock and pets or you don't.

"Livestock" is pretty much my all-time favorite word.

 

[RandFan]

"Livestock" is pretty much my all-time favorite word.

I don't know, "strategery" and "irregardless" are pretty good.

 

[redfarmer]

Like the two undercover investigation videos I posted of Hudson Vally that folks are ignoring?

Can't ignore something if we don't know about it.

Folks are acting as if the issue of Hudson Vally being clearly better than other farms is settle by a video from Bourdain and an article from the Village Voice, both were announced visits in which they knew there would be cameras.
But how about when they don't know they are on camera at all.

Maybe I'm just being thick but I don't see any difference between your video and the Bourdain video and Village Voice article other than your ominous music and some unsourced commentary over the grainy footage of the people seeming to do exactly the same thing they're doing in the Bourdain video and the Village Voice article. If this is about the avoidance behavior, you're really arguing a strawman because neither Bourdain nor the Village Voice author deny that there is avoidance behavior. What they do deny is that this means the ducks are in pain, which seems to be your explanation for why there is avoidance behavior.

You imply that they do something different in this situation because they didn't know you have a camera. I can't see anything they're doing differently that either Bourdain or the Village Voice writer (or both) didn't show. So I ask once again, please quote your sources that show that what Hudson Valley is doing is cruel.

 

[Furcifer]

Well again, it's not just PETA. The gavage is hardly the only issue. And "by all accounts it is" isn't accurate. The EU Scientific Committee on Animal Health and Welfare didn't come to this conclusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy). Of course, that was in 1998 and I'm not aware if or how much the practice has changed since then.

By all accounts I mean there's a proper way to do it that doesn't injure the animal.

 

[Soymilk420]

Can't ignore something if we don't know about it.

Then you must have missed it, cause I had posted the videos in the the two posts immediately preceding your post where you say "And if you don't trust her, may I suggest one of the unannounced visits you praised Hudson Valley for allowing, with any expert you would like?
"
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7449976#post7449976

If this is about the avoidance behavior, you're really arguing a strawman because neither Bourdain nor the Village Voice author deny that there is avoidance behavior.

Yet the tour guide at Hudson Vally does state this at 0:24 in the COK video

You imply that they do something different in this situation because they didn't know you have a camera. I can't see anything they're doing differently that either Bourdain or the Village Voice writer (or both) didn't show. So I ask once again, please quote your sources that show that what Hudson Valley is doing is cruel.

Injury, lack of freedom of movement, and filth were all more prominent in the COK and GourmetCruelty videos, it also appears to me that the handling of the birds is more rough in the undercover videos and that the Bourdain video focused far more on birds running around rather than the penned and caged birds (Im guessing ones in later stages of fattening)
one example in the COK video is at 2:16

Personally my issue is less with the treatment and more with them being used as instruments of production. So even if Hudson Vally was as "humane" as they like to be portrayed I would still be opposed to the production of foie gras, so its not like the treatment issue is the sticking point for me.

 

[redfarmer]

Yet the tour guide at Hudson Vally does state this at 0:24 in the COK video

Never denied the tour guide said this. The avoidance behavior is also discussed in the Village Voice article. What's new?

Injury, lack of freedom of movement, and filth were all more prominent in the COK and GourmetCruelty videos, it also appears to me that the handling of the birds is more rough in the undercover videos and that the Bourdain video focused far more on birds running around rather than the penned and caged birds (Im guessing ones in later stages of fattening)
one example in the COK video is at 2:16

I saw one injury on one duck who was on his way to be slaughtered. The Village Voice article discussed the slaughtering and said it's not a pleasant process, but you wouldn't expect slaughtering to be. It's an inherently messy process no matter how you do it.

And, once again, the only ducks I saw confined were the ones in cages on their way to the slaughter. The others were in the exact same confines featured in the Bourdain video and in the Village Voice article.

As for filth, couldn't really make out any filth on the grainy footage. Doesn't mean it's not there but I couldn't see any.

Personally my issue is less with the treatment and more with them being used as instruments of production. So even if Hudson Vally was as "humane" as they like to be portrayed I would still be opposed to the production of foie gras, so its not like the treatment issue is the sticking point for me.

At least you're being honest, which is more than I can say for most of the animal rights opponents of foie gras, and I'll give you credit for that. You'll also forgive me, though, I hope, if I say I completely disagree with you, but will ask for that discussion to be put off for another day since it would take this thread off topic.