Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

I don't see how is explained why she did not flush it.

She thought that some stranger left it, not one of the tenants, she felt uneasy and left. Makes perfect sense to me. Nothing controversial.

Let me repeat:
What do you infer? Why is she lying about it then? What's the point? What do you suspect is the real story?

 

[Skwinty]

She thought that some stranger left it, not one of the tenants, she felt uneasy and left. Makes perfect sense to me. Nothing controversial.

Didn't Meredith complain that Amanda had a habit of not flushing the toilet?

If true, why would she bother flushing someone else's poop?

Nothing unusual then.

 

[LondonJohn]

And no one is making any such explanation.
Please look at the photo of the bathroom floor and the mat.
Do you see how faint the print is? If only so little of the blood dilution got transfered onto the highly absorbent surface, how much do you expect to get onto the tiled floor?
Where's the heel? The answer is simple - it's gone, if ever there was anything noticeable at all.
The colour of the tiles doesn't help in noticing faint diluted blood traces, for sure. Remember how nobody noticed the trail of shoeprints going all the way to the door?


Some washing done by Guede. What's the point and where's the controversy then?

An easy experiment anyone can perform to demonstrate to themselves the paucity of bolint's argument about the bathmat print is this:

1) Take a decent thick-pile towel (bath towel or hand towel), then double it over on itself to simulate the very thick pile of the bathmat.

2) Place this double-thickness towel onto a hard surface (i.e. not a carpet).

3) Stand in front of the edge of the towel.

4) Leaving your left foot where it is, place the front half of your right foot lightly - with any weight onto the ball of your foot - onto the edge of the double-over towel, such that the front half of your foot contacts the towel, but the back half of your foot remains beyond the edge of the towel.

5) Note how the front half of your foot makes clear contact with the doubled-over towel (simulating the bathmat), but that the back half of your foot remains suspended in the air.

This is how it's entirely possible for the front half of a foot whose sole is totally covered in bloody water to leave an imprint on a bathmat, without there being any imprint from the rear half of the foot found anywhere.

Simples!

 

[Katody Matrass]

I was referring to unavoidable bloody water drops in the bathroom.
No way you wash your pants with so much water that your foot produces such a print and there is no other bloody water on the floor.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/dsc_0202.jpg

There's some more bloody water on the mat. Probably there was some also on the floor. The cops failed to detect it. They did some chemical testing of all surfaces (the pink bathroom photo) that they apparently botched, because no mention of any results can be found. Anyway after Amanda took shower there and then hordes of cops trampled and shuffled through the floor anything visible with naked eye was gone.

 

[Onofarar]

Was the computer a laptop or desktop?

Was the the computer connected to the net?

If so, what method of connection? fixed line or 3G modem?

Google "Church Discipline" and visit this blog site and search thru the twelve 2011 posts on the Amanda Knox case and you will find a posting by the host on how the Apple oprating system works that is VERY detailed and will prove to you if nothing else how inadequate the police forensic work on Raf's Mac was. Then look at the translated (unless you read Italian) appeal by Raf's lawyers at IIP about computer activity all night and you will have at least the possibility if not certainty that someone, probably Raf, never left the cozy "love nest" that night. If Raf was playing on his computer most of the night, he would know if AK left - why would he cover for a girl he knew for 6 - 8 days? As I posted here long ago - had Raf distanced himself from AK and agreed with the police version of events in November 2007 he would have been elevated into the panthenon of "super witness" long ago with Curatolo (Toto), Mr. Q of bleach purchase fame and Nara the "earwitness". HIs courage has not been appreciated by many either here or elsewhere.

 

[LondonJohn]

Didn't Meredith complain that Amanda had a habit of not flushing the toilet?

If true, why would she bother flushing someone else's poop?

Nothing unusual then.

Well, to be totally objective about this issue, Knox apparently had a habit of not flushing her own urine every time. I don't think there was ever any suggestion that she didn't flush her faeces.

But regardless, there's still no reason to connect her failure to flush the mystery faeces in the large bathroom (which Knox never used) with any sort of "desire to implicate Guede". As I mentioned before, the faeces would probably have required more work to flush than simply pulling a flush lever (or pressing a button). And since it wasn't Knox's regular bathroom, and since she was probably also a little pissed off that some unhygienic person had not bothered to flush (and might therefore have wanted to remind that person - or Laura/Filomena if the culprit was a friend of theirs - of his/her neglectful and unsanitary behaviour), it seems perfectly reasonable to me that Knox would have left things as they were.

 

[bolint]

But Knox's November 4th email says only the following about the evening of November 1st:


You might be interpreting the "we didn't go out" part to mean that they didn't go out from 5pm onwards. But I think that a reasonable interpretation is that they didn't go out at the important time when Knox was told the murder took place.

The only reference I can find to Knox's court testimony on this issue is the following:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...by-police-to-implicate-bar-owner-1703408.html

Again, Knox does not specifically say that she and Sollecito stayed in from 5pm onwards. I'm still not seeing anywhere that Knox "directly contradicts" (your words) Sollecito's version in which they are in town until 8.30pm. So again, please can you provide specific and referenced evidence to back up your claim? Thanks.

Some more material for advanced exegesis:
(Although she does not say specifically that it was in 2007 )

"On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work. "

 

[Skwinty]

Well, to be totally objective about this issue, Knox apparently had a habit of not flushing her own urine every time. I don't think there was ever any suggestion that she didn't flush her faeces.

The quote I read did not mention specifics, just that she had the habit of not flushing the toilet.

I agree that by not flushing the unknown deposit means absolutely nothing wrt evidence.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

toilet brush?

The quote I read did not mention specifics, just that she had the habit of not flushing the toilet.

I agree that by not flushing the unknown deposit means absolutely nothing wrt evidence.

Skwinty,

I am going on memory here. I thought that Amanda did not know that one sometimes had to use a brush to thoroughly clean up after oneself. I am not sure, however.

 

[Skwinty]

Skwinty,

I am going on memory here. I thought that Amanda did not know that one sometimes had to use a brush to thoroughly clean up after oneself. I am not sure, however.

Here is the source of the quote.

But the relationship soon soured. Kercher, a cheerful and hard-working young woman, had budding reservations about her flatmate. According to friends, she grew more and more exasperated by Knox’s behaviour — she failed to flush the toilet, kept strumming the same chord on her guitar, and brought “strange men” to the cottage.

Indeed, it appears that it was Knox’s sex life that really drove a wedge between the women.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6945967.ece

 

[Katody Matrass]

Some more material for advanced exegesis:
(Although she does not say specifically that it was in 2007 )

"On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work. "

When you ask people to make an exact timeline of how they spent they leisure time a week ago, you don't expect to find any inaccuracies at all?
There is another "contradiction" in the text you quoted. According to computer data the movie "Amelie" ended after Amanda received the SMS, not before. Highly suspicious, isn't it?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the extra alleles from the clasp profile

It is not only the time, I mean if everything (from collection to interpretation) had been done correctly.

(Of course, I know that no matter how correctly had it been collected, it would now be disputed by the defence that it was not correct. )

But would accepting it change the judgment of innocence?

bolint,

The failure to collect the clasp in a timely manner is a big problem with the clasp for me. However, the bigger problem for me is the presence of extra alleles that are not Sollecito's and not stutters. Even though they are do not form complete profiles, they had to be from someone. MOO.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

only one strange man

Here is the source of the quote.

But the relationship soon soured. Kercher, a cheerful and hard-working young woman, had budding reservations about her flatmate. According to friends, she grew more and more exasperated by Knox’s behaviour — she failed to flush the toilet, kept strumming the same chord on her guitar, and brought “strange men” to the cottage.

Indeed, it appears that it was Knox’s sex life that really drove a wedge between the women.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6945967.ece

Skwinty,

That quote contains an oft-repeated misunderstanding. Meredith thought Amanda's friend Juve was "strange;" however, Juve had a steady girlfriend, and he and Amanda were never intimate. Amanda wrote a list of all of her sexual partners when she was told that she was (or might be) HIV-positive. There are only two from Italy, Raffaele and Daniel de Luna, with whom she had a one night stand. Not just the tabloids but also the broadsheets got this case very much wrong.

 

[Katody Matrass]

There wasn't any wedge between them. It was a poorly supported prosecutions theory.
According to other tenants everything was fine between Amanda and Meredith. No quarels or confrontations.
In fact they spent time together. e.g. they went together to a festival or just few days before the murder they were at a classical concert together.

 

[bolint]

That quote contains an oft-repeated misunderstanding. Meredith thought Amanda's friend Juve was "strange;" however, Juve had a steady girlfriend, and he and Amanda were never intimate. Amanda wrote a list of all of her sexual partners when she was told that she was (or might be) HIV-positive. There are only two from Italy, Raffaele and Daniel de Luna, with whom she had a one night stand. Not just the tabloids but also the broadsheets got this case very much wrong.

In the bugged conversation below I think she is talking about Juve.
It is remarkable that Raffaele does not seem to know who she is talking about and when he wants to know it Amanda avoids answering.

Juve was to testify at the trial but the police could not find him.
By Amanda's claim Juve had been in the cottage the day before the murder.
I have a feeling that he was not properly investigated.

"While at the police station on Nov4, RS popped out to get a pizza. The lovebirds were put in a room and their conversation was 'secretly' recorded.

4'40;

RS; What are you thinking about?

AK; That I don't want to be here. I want everything to be over because I want to know who is (sic d) his friends, because he doesn't have many friends. Now, it's like this, it's interesting. In fact, nobody is his friend now. because before when (his? ndr) house was here he doesn't have..., he didn't go out, he didn't speak to many people..., he was always focusing on his girlfriend. That's what he told me.

RS. (in bad English) You...because I've got many friends, if I tell everyone to look after you...or...this is the difference, I have good friends, not his friends.

6'30;

AK; (In Italian) I know, but he's a bit crazy when he's...(she hesitates, stumbles in Italian and continues in English) When he thinks about breaking off a relationship with a woman (incomprehensible)...strange to me. He says he trusts his girlfriend but he doesn't like it when he sees her talk to a man he doesn't know. Even if they've just split up...(incomprehensible). He looks at her and gets crazy. And...but then he (not clear, seems like 'He forced me')all the time. He's terrible. He says he doesn't mind seeing his girlfriend, even if he's talking to a man he doesn't know, but then he gets arrogant with me.

RS; (in English) This is ridiculous.

7'20;

AK; (In English) I don't like him anymore frankly. I mean; it was nice of him to find me a job and I liked it when he played the guitar with...when I went home (the missing word isn't clearly audible because of backgound voices and sounds. It could be 'with me', 'with Meredith' or something else)

RS; Hang on, are we talking about...(he hesitates) your friend from Le Chic or ...

AK; (She interrupts him) Friend from Le Chic?

RS; I'm not talking about the one that...

AK; Who?

RS; I'm mean the one that...

AK; Spiros?

RS; No. Shaky, Shaky, eh, eh (sniggering)

AK; I don't like him. He's not...I detest that man (sniggering). He tried it on with me.

RS; (after an interruption) Yes, OK, and...if he says something (?) ...with friends (?) Do you think he's...because I'm just..."

 

[RoseMontague]

Some more material for advanced exegesis:
(Although she does not say specifically that it was in 2007 )

"On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work. "

We know the movie was played at 6:27PM from the computer records and we know Patrick's text message was at 8:18PM so unless they were carrying the lap top around with them going about town the differences in what they remember as to the sequence of events is meaningless. Were they supposed to be doing something nefarious as they went about? This all occurred before Meredith's murder in any case. Amanda states the movie watching is after the Patrick call in some versions but this one is probably the correct one, imo. The fact that Amanda is confused is confirmed by Amanda and the fact that Raffaele doesn't have a very good memory of the exact times and sequences is pretty much established as well. This is why the phone and computer records are important in terms of what actually happened when.

 

[LondonJohn]

Some more material for advanced exegesis:
(Although she does not say specifically that it was in 2007 )

"On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work. "

Your facetiousness about "not specifically in 2007" is noted.....

But - more importantly - where in this quote does it even suggest - far less explicitly state - that Knox and Sollecito didn't leave Sollecito's apartment at between around 7pm and 8.30pm? Your bolded part doesn't even go so far as to imply that Knox/Sollecito did not leave Sollecito's apartment at any time after they first arrived there at around 5.00-5.15pm.

In addition, I'm sure you're aware that Knox and Sollecito both claim that they finished watching "Amelie" at around 8.45-9.00pm. Now, "Amelie" plays for 120-130 minutes (depending on the country version):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0211915/

Working back from 8.45pm, therefore, if they had watched the film in one continuous viewing, they would have started watching it at around 6.45pm. But they left for Sollecito's apartment at around 5pm (and it would have taken 5-10 minutes to make the journey). I therefore think it's highly likely that they started watching "Amelie" at around 5.30-6.00pm, then paused the movie and went out to buy food etc at around 6.45-7.00pm, returning to watch the remainder of the movie at around 8.20-8.30pm.

Lastly, Knox makes reference to "receiving the message" from Lumumba after the film had finished. We know that this message was sent at around 8.20pm. But Knox claims to have read it and replied to it immediately. And we know that her reply was sent at around 8.45pm. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that even though Knox's phone received Lumumba's incoming text message at the same time it was sent, she didn't in fact notice the presence of this incoming message until 8.45pm - at which point she read it and replied to it with the infamous "see you later" message.

And the above interpretation fits with the scenario where Knox and Sollecito start to watch "Amelie" at around 5.30-5.45pm, then pause the movie to go out at around 7pm, arriving back at Sollecito's apartment at perhaps around 8.15pm. They then watch the final half-hour of "Amelie", up until around 8.45pm, at which point Knox looks at her phone and notices Lumumba's text message.

 

[bolint]

She thought that some stranger left it, not one of the tenants, she felt uneasy and left. Makes perfect sense to me. Nothing controversial.

Let me repeat:
What do you infer? Why is she lying about it then? What's the point? What do you suspect is the real story?

That she had not talked about it before reporting it to Napoleoni after the discovery of the murder. Neither to Raffaele, nor to Filomena.

 

[Katody Matrass]

That she had not talked about it before reporting it to Napoleoni after the discovery of the murder. Neither to Raffaele, nor to Filomena.

Because?

 

[LondonJohn]

We know the movie was played at 6:27PM from the computer records and we know Patrick's text message was at 8:18PM so unless they were carrying the lap top around with them going about town the differences in what they remember as to the sequence of events is meaningless. Were they supposed to be doing something nefarious as they went about? This all occurred before Meredith's murder in any case. Amanda states the movie watching is after the Patrick call in some versions but this one is probably the correct one, imo. The fact that Amanda is confused is confirmed by Amanda and the fact that Raffaele doesn't have a very good memory of the exact times and sequences is pretty much established as well. This is why the phone and computer records are important in terms of what actually happened when.

Indeed. Another possibility is that Sollecito was mistaken in his recall about when they were out in town. In Perugia, the sun sets at 5.03pm local time on November 1st:

http://uk.weather.com/climate/sunRiseSunSet-Perugia-ITXX0136?month=11

It would therefore have been dark by around 5.30pm on that day in 2007. It therefore seems possible that Sollecito lost track of time when trying to recall his and Knox's movements on that night. It's possible that he recalled that they were out in town when it was dark, and mistakenly thought that this was at around 7.30-8.30pm, when in fact it was during the 5.30-6.30pm time period.

Additionally, a very important point to remember in relation to this time period is that it's totally unimportant in the context of the murder. Meredith did not even arrive home until around 9pm, so it's immaterial what Knox and Sollecito claim to have been doing prior to this time. There's no reason, therefore, for them to have lied about their movements prior to 9pm - even if they were culpable of the murder - and they would both have know this.