Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
LondonJohn said:
Of course the more idiotic of the pro-guilt commentators will leap on this issue and say something like this: "Oh, I see, Rudy's a complete liar when it comes to him accusing Knox and Sollecito of participation in the murder, but when it suits you he's suddenly telling the truth about the time of the scream!"

So, where are we up to? Well, Guede knows that he has to work back from the 9.20 timing of the scream. He also knows that he has to place himself in the bathroom for a good 10 minutes prior to the scream, in order to support his story of being oblivious to the "real killers" entering the cottage, confronting Meredith and killing her. He therefore knows he has to pretend that he left Meredith's room to go to the bathroom at around 9.10. But he also has to try to explain the sexual contact, so he invents the story of consensual heavy petting. But since Meredith only arrived home at around 9pm, and since Guede has to pretend that he went to the bathroom by 9.10pm, this only leaves a 10-minute period for Guede and Meredith to a) meet, b) have some sort of discussion, and c) engage in all the escalating heavy petting that Guede needs to claim took place. This is yet another clear indicator that Guede's story is scuppered by the timings that he knows he has to weave into his narrative.
Click to expand...

I follow the items on top of the bed being dumped from the bag. I have a question though. Where did the empty bag end up?

Now as to the above scenario....I personally think MK was dead before 9:15. If we go with your above ideas then we must think that Meredith was alive from 8:56 until 9:20. And in that 25 minutes RG had to already be in the cottage. This is certain because Meredith would have taken some type of action at hearing breaking glass etc....she would have run or called police or locked herself in her room...so he was in there already we can be sure.

I suppose he could have sat silently in the bathroom while MK settled in; but I think she would have retried her call to mom or done some other phone thing...I have a son MK age and I watch his "phone actions" he rarely puts it down and if calling does not work then he texts. This leads me to believe that MK was attacked shortly after she arrived home...maybe even at 8:56 when the call was interrupted. I suppose RG could have held her hostage at knife point and undressed her partially and started to sexually assault her for some short while but a 25 minute time span seems long.

I think MK was attacked at 8:56 PM. I don’t have any one reason but I believe she was dead by 9:10 PM. RG was certainly gone by the time of the broken down car...which escapes me at the moment.

I suppose one could work backwards from SR Lannas house subtracted from the time stamps of the calls on MK phones which I’m fairly certain were RG efforts at shutting them off or at least shutting them up. I am not the type person who can see the big picture and there are certainly here people much better at this working backwards business than me.

I guess for now I wonder about the time period 8:56 until 9:20. That is a long time....
 
halides1 said:
komponisto,

The cycle time for a capillary electrophoresis run plus the pre-run preparations is about 30 minutes for the Applied Biosystems, Inc. (ABI) 310 (I cannot recall which machine Stefanoni used). I have previously stressed the importance of the electronic data files, but I think that the machine logs are also important and may hold information on what runs were done when and in what order. If Italy's laws concerning DNA discovery are not explicit about routinely turning over machine logs, standard operating procedures, and electronic data files, then this case should be Exhibit A on the need for such reform. MOO.
Click to expand...

Isn't it a AB 3130? The DNA chart states 3130. on rep 36.
3130 is a 16 Capillary.
310 is a single caplillary
I'm not totally sure what the difference is in having 16?

http://www3.appliedbiosystems.com/cms/groups/mcb_marketing/documents/generaldocuments/cms_042198.pdf
 
Read the last paragraph... it relates.

-

30 Missing Italian Women Profiled as Slovak Cannibal's Victims
Slovak Cannibal Matej Churko
03 August, 2011 - 10:51

http://www.nationalturk.com/en/30-missing-italian-women-profiled-as-slovak-cannibal’s-victims-13267

"30 Italian women who have disappeared between January 2009 and May 2011 fit the profile - age 25 to 28; their bodies never found - of alleged Slovak cannibal Matej Curko's possible victims.

"A possible Italian victim emerged from gigital email correspondence between Curko, who died in a firefight with the Slovak police force on 12 May, and Swiss-born Markus Dubach, a consenting victim who changed his mind at the last moment. But the email messages shoved only the victim's age and that she was italian. This explains why investigators have cast their net wide to include thirty crimes and unsolved cases over the period when Matj Curko appears to have been active. Forensic experts, on the back foot after recent errors in the Meredith Kercher Amanda Knox case, want to be 100% certain before making any connections with the cannibal murders... "

-
 
Poppy1016 said:
I was curious about when the body temperature was taken. What are the general rules and guidelines regarding this issue. Is it being challenged in the appeal that the taking of the body temperature was delayed for a long period of time, another error as I understand it.
Click to expand...

The general rule for establishing a TOD is to first exclude anyone in the Perugia cop-shop from taking part. That will simplify things enormously and should help in gaining a correct result. From what I gather from previous posts Steff said that taking a rectal temperature could smear other tests results or something.
 
Last edited:
Hi Bob
Your right about the police. And I sure would never play any games with Stephony, she makes up new rules as she goes along.
 
Although True Justice For My Website is claiming great success in having the defences objections overruled and allowing Steff to lie on the stand again, it could all be back to front.
Just because R & A's lawyers are standing around lookiing fluffy and harmless like dandruff on an expensive suit while saying they don't like it, that doesn't mean it's not a bad thing.
Hellman may have decided that Steff is a danger to the public and should have her employment terminated asap by getting her to talk in public about her ...ahem, work, instead of lying through Commodi.

For those worried about another incorrect verdict my advice is don't. Hellman is the man who said before the appeal began
'We don't know for sure who killed Meredith, but we know mistakes were made in the first trial.'

There's a really funny shot on TJFMW of her predicting Steff's triumphant return to the stand labelled -:

Dr Stefanoni today with Ms Comodi and the Sollecito defense team minus Giulia Bongiorno]

If you look at the photo you can see the other people correctly looking at Steff like she just crawled up from out of a toilet.
 
Last edited:
RandyN said:
I follow the items on top of the bed being dumped from the bag. I have a question though. Where did the empty bag end up?
Click to expand...


We don't know if the bag was truly empty but it doesn't appear to contain any large items. The bag itself was on the floor on the other side of the room.


I think MK was attacked at 8:56 PM. I don’t have any one reason but I believe she was dead by 9:10 PM. RG was certainly gone by the time of the broken down car...which escapes me at the moment.
...
I guess for now I wonder about the time period 8:56 until 9:20. That is a long time....
Click to expand...

If anyone has any information that invalidates my timeline, I would sure like to know about it.
  • 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
  • 20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
    Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
  • 20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
    "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through.
    Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
  • 21:04 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
    The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. A still from the video has been discovered showing the timestamp of 20:51:36.17
  • 21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
 
Dan O. said:
We don't know if the bag was truly empty but it doesn't appear to contain any large items. The bag itself was on the floor on the other side of the room.




If anyone has any information that invalidates my timeline, I would sure like to know about it.
  • 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn Butterworth at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie Purton.
  • 20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo.
    Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
  • 20:56 Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
    "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Kercher’s mother, Arline, in Coulsdon, Surrey, was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through.
    Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
  • 21:04 Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera, CCTV time adjusted forward 12 minutes per the defense's theory.
    The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. CCTV time stamp was said to be 20:43 in early news reports (when the figure was thought to be Amanda); later reports of 20:41 are possibly a confusion with Guede's sighting at 19:41. Fits with Sophie's arrival home at 20:55, and the interrupted call at 20:56. A still from the video has been discovered showing the timestamp of 20:51:36.17
  • 21:05 Kercher arrives at cottage
Click to expand...

Well that closes the gap from 25 minutes to just 15 per LJ scenario. And I expect this is correct.

After leaving Sophie, MK still had a bit of a walk. Perhaps she decided to try a call to mom during the walk and after that failed then she decided to wait until she got home to retry. That means that most likely she was attacked very soon after she entered, perhaps even discovering RG on the pot. His story did contain a branch that mentioned pants not fully up and his falling down because of it. Meredith upon entering certainly locked the door behind herself and with that jury rigged lock system she was now essentially locked in ...at least from the standpoint of a quick exit.

I remember a discussion about this lock system once and someone mentioned it is not uncommon. I disagree. I understand the regular part of the lock was jammed open with wood, but it’s the deadbolt lock w/o the inner turn knob that is not up to code. In the United States I can not imagine any code that would allow such a double side key only deadbolt lock. Certainly European standards must recognize the danger of such a lock during an emergency such as a fire. I also remember reading about a letter Filomena (who was the liaison with the landlord) had sent describing the problem with the door lock as well as the problem with her shutters being impossible to latch due to being warped.

Hard to guess exactly what happened but in any case the 9:20 PM scream seems like very sound reasoning.
 
halides1 said:
JREF2010,

The 3100 is also a 16-capillary instrument. It can do 16 runs instead of 1, if I am not mistaken. This would be the way to go for high throughput labs.
Click to expand...

Did you see on the chart of the knife, it has 3130_2_.....
Does this mean 3130 was used? I am guessing it does.

So this allows 16 samples of the same item or sixteen different items to be tested at once?

And each Capillary would need a set of controls, to ensure no contamination is present (and especially dont use garbage peaks in the 0 to 20RFU range as reliable)..I assume.

The article I read of Applied Biosystem mentioned the contamination can be seen from capillary residual in the lower RFU range, was one comment, which always had me leaning that it was the capillary that possibly deposited the Meredith DNA into the Chart....not onto the knife.
Most likely the DNA was never on the knife. But in a Capillary that wasnt purged enough, or changed.

The controls could have answered this question easily.

I'm not sure how the machine works with 16 capillarys, but the AB link shows the 3130 is a 16 capillary tube system.

excerpt from an article>Applied Biosystems, Inc. (ABI), which sells the most widely used systems for STR typing, has recommended a peak-height threshold of 150 RFU, saying that peaks below this level must be interpreted with caution.
Most contamination events involve small quantities of DNA and therefore will be detected at lower threshold values.

http://www.nfstc.org/pdi/Subject05/images/pdi_s05_m02_01.swf

310/3100
http://www.nfstc.org/pdi/Subject05/pdi_s05_m02_01_a.htm
 
Last edited:
A Fatal Gift of Beauty contains details about one break-in I was not familiar with:

Ten days later, on October 23, Rudy Guede’s immediate next-door neighbor on via Canerino, Mara Madu Diaz, was at a friend’s farm in Gualdo Tadino, about an hour’s drive from Perugia, participating in the vendemmia—the annual grape harvest. She knew Rudy, as she often saw him in front of her house on his phone—he had to stand outside his own house to get cell service. She saw him almost daily, when she walked her dog in the morning and evening. He always said hello and often leaned down and petted her dog. That day, police interrupted her grape harvesting with bad news. Her little medieval house in Perugia—narrow, three floors high, with a single room on each floor—had been badly damaged in a fire.
She raced home to find her cat dead and her house nearly destroyed. Firemen and police told her a thief or thieves had entered through a lower window and that the fire had started on the third floor, in her bedroom, where someone had thrown a scarf over a lamp.
.......(snip)..........
Her cat strangled on the smoke, because whoever had feasted in the kitchen had left the pantry door open, blocking the animal’s escape route. When Mrs. Madu Diaz finally assessed the damage, she found that the thief had cleaned out her jewel box, including a gold watch of her mother’s.
She didn’t see Rudy again after the fire. When she learned he had been arrested and had a habit of breaking into homes, she wondered if he’d had something to do with her disaster. But the police never charged anyone. Her insurance paid for repairs, and the little house became habitable again after three years of work.
Click to expand...

And from the timeline:

October 27. A Saturday. Rudy is arrested inside the Milan nursery school owned by Mrs. Del Prato. Police find Paolo Brocchi’s laptop and cell phone, a woman’s gold watch, and a sixteen-inch knife belonging to the nursery school kitchen in his backpack.
Click to expand...

How much evidence do you need to prosecute Rudy for burglary? I just don't get it.
 
Last edited:
JREF2010 said:
more questions..

The book on the bed, throws me off, how did it get there? You think from the purse? WHat is the book, the one Robyn loaned her?
Did they find the DNA of Rudy from that purse on the bed or was it a different bag?

Here's a picture, a good piece of room for the murderer to sit between O and J.

http://www.hotklix.com/link/news/India/Chilling-Picture-of-Meredith-Kercher-Murder-Scene


Looking at the end table it appears room enough where the purse might have been sitting. Empty space by the H card.
Click to expand...

Here are a couple of photos that give a better view of what was on the bed:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/dsc_0117.jpg
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/dsc_0171.jpg

My guess is that these books were lying on the bed when Guede yanked it off, and they slid over to the wall.

Guede's DNA was indeed found on the purse on the bed.

It's possible to determine that certain events happened between the moment when Meredith's throat was cut and the time she stopped breathing, because of the blood spray aspirated from the wound. During those few minutes, she collapsed in front of the wardrobe and was dragged out into the middle of the room to the spot where she was found, presumably because it was easier to disrobe her in a more open area. Her shirts were pulled up, her bra was ripped off her body, and she was rolled onto her back.

That is the limit of what can be determined from the the blood spray evidence. From then on, we have to figure out what took place and fit each event into the sequence that seems most plausible. I think Guede's next move was to wipe an area of the floor with towels, remove her lower garments, put a pillow under her buttocks, and sexually assault her.

I think he then went into the bathroom to clean up. If he had sat on her bed and gone through her purse before doing so, I think he'd have left more blood deposits there.

He may have spread the quilt over her body before or after going to the bathroom to clean up.

He returned from the bathroom, grabbed the knife off the floor, and set it on the bed next to him. He sat on the edge of the bed and went through her purse, taking what he wanted. Then he stood up to walk out of the room, and he put his left shoe on a bloody towel that was jutting out from under the duvet, which is visible in one of the photos linked above. That is how he left bloody shoe prints near the foot of the bed and in the corridor.

Many of you have seen this, but here again is Ron Hendry's reconstruction of the crime:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/hendry_reconstruction.jpg
 
Ergon is wondering if I am one of those "men with issues" and others have chimed in.

No, Rose is not Mark Waterbury. For the record Rose has posted in the last 7 years or so at various places under the names Rose, Mark, Red, and Scarlet. For the moment Rose is quite comfortable with the name Rose.

Is The Machine "pretending" to be a machine?
 
Before Rudy puts the pillow under Meredith, he is stepping on that pillow leaving prints of his left shoe. We do not however see a continuation of those shoe prints in the room or hall leading to the bathroom and back. The hall in particular was tested with Luminol so should have detected the weakest prints not even visible. Since we know that Rudy went into the bathroom between placing Meredith on the pillow and when he left the final sequence of tracks out the door, the shoes have to be left in the room for those trips.
 
Dan O. said:
Before Rudy puts the pillow under Meredith, he is stepping on that pillow leaving prints of his left shoe. We do not however see a continuation of those shoe prints in the room or hall leading to the bathroom and back. The hall in particular was tested with Luminol so should have detected the weakest prints not even visible. Since we know that Rudy went into the bathroom between placing Meredith on the pillow and when he left the final sequence of tracks out the door, the shoes have to be left in the room for those trips.
Click to expand...

I agree Dan. I believe the visible prints near the corner of the bed near the door are from Rudy taking his shoes off, leaving his shoes in the bedroom, and walking barefoot to the bathroom to clean up.
 
Sorry, coming a little late to what looks like it was a fun exchange...

Skwinty said:
Wasn't she labelled as a borderline psychopath because of her behaviour?
Click to expand...

Skwinty does not win his point as completely as he thinks. It is true Amanda was labeled as a psychopath, but it was not because of her behavior. She was labeled as a psychopath because of media reports of her behavior and because of stupid people.

To let Skwinty's original claim stand as is implies that Amanda did exhibit suspicious behavior. None of us knows for sure whether that is the case.

As Coline Covington herself points out, psychopaths are careful to appear as normal as possible. To label Amanda as psychopathic because of bizarre behavior (or worse, media reports of bizarre behavior) is a contradictory, self-defeating claim made only by stupid people.
 
RoseMontague said:
I agree Dan. I believe the visible prints near the corner of the bed near the door are from Rudy taking his shoes off, leaving his shoes in the bedroom, and walking barefoot to the bathroom to clean up.
Click to expand...

Except he can't be barefoot either or he would have left a trail of prints with his bare right foot returning from the shower. He has to at least put a sock on for the return trip.
 
Skwinty said:
Please show me where I stated or thought that?

This is typical of this thread is it not?
Click to expand...

I got the impression from these posts that you believed your original claim was completely true:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7432669&postcount=1062
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7432721&postcount=1067
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7432738&postcount=1070
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7432832&postcount=1074

The problem was that most of the posters who responded seemed to be addressing only your claim that Amanda was labeled as a psychopath (which is true), while ignoring your original point that "Amanda was labeled as a psychopath because of her behavior."
 
Last edited:
Mary_H said:
I got the impression from these posts that you believed your original claim was completely true:
Click to expand...

This is exactly why I don't get too involved in this thread.

I asked a question based on what I read. It was not my claim that she is a psychopath.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom