Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I think continuing the rebuttal of this argumentum ad hominem is just going to get more posts shoved in AAH. If people have nothing better to do than dismiss the opinion of a medical professional with post-graduate degrees and court-room experience in forensic pathology because - gasp! - this person is - gasp! - a veterinarian, I think they've run out of arguments.

Rolfe.
 
And as anyone familiar with the case know, Rudy Guede is the one person involved who certainly knows exactly what happened when the murder occurred.

If he says 9:20 - 9:30. He's right. You can ignore all the other lies he has told (or was fed, and sort of told to say, is another way to put it)

As far as the TOD goes. Rudy's right. That's it. There is no reason for, or gain in him lying. It's one thing he would sit there and reply to honestly, without being wary of any need for obfuscation of the event.


Of course the more idiotic of the pro-guilt commentators will leap on this issue and say something like this: "Oh, I see, Rudy's a complete liar when it comes to him accusing Knox and Sollecito of participation in the murder, but when it suits you he's suddenly telling the truth about the time of the scream!"

But of course this "argument" is not what it seems, and it's easy to rebut. As you say, it comes down to what is/was in Guede's best interest to claim. Clearly it's in Guede's best interest to claim that he had no involvement in the murder, although he knows from the bloody palm print that he can't escape the fact that he was in Meredith's room either during or shortly after the murder. And this is exactly why he invented the convoluted story about being in the cottage but on the toilet at the time of the attack, then rushing back into Meredith's room as the "real killers" rushed out (scuffling with him and insulting him on the way out). He then seeks to explain his bloody hand print and shoe prints in Meredith's room by pretending that those were deposited while he was trying to help the dying Meredith. Of course all of this is directly contradicted by his nonchalant appearance at the dancefloor in Perugia within hours of the murder, so we can be pretty certain that his explanation in regard to his movements within the cottage and non-participation in the attack are a bogus concoction.

But when it comes to the scream and the time of the scream, there's a different dynamic. Guede makes it clear in the Skype call that the scream was loud, and even explicitly states that it was loud enough to be heard from the street. To me (and to most rational people), this is very telling. It seems highly likely that Guede was afraid that one or more people outside the cottage might have heard the scream. He therefore realised - as he did when addressing the problem of his bloody hand print and shoe prints - that he needed to weave the scream into his bogus narrative. Importantly, he also realised that he needed to place himself away from Meredith's room at the time of the scream. After all, if he had claimed that he was still getting intimate with Meredith (uggghhh) until 9.45pm, and a witness had subsequently come forward to testify that there was a loud scream at around 9.20, Guede would immediately be in big trouble.

So Guede knew that he had to a) include the scream in his narrative, and b) make sure that the timings "worked" so that he placed himself in the bathroom at the time of the scream. Thus he is very probably correct when he places the scream at "9.20-9.30": the correct timing is crucial to the preservation of his bogus narrative.

Incidentally, Guede still has an additional insurmountable problem to overcome regarding his narrative, and it's this: he knows that there was a loud scream at around 9.20, so therefore he has to place himself in the bathroom at that point in time (in case someone heard the scream). But he also knows that he has to account for the evidence of his interference with Meredith's genitals. So he invents the crap about engaging in consensual sexual contact with Meredith.

But here's his problem: it's incontrovertible that Meredith didn't arrive back at the cottage until around 9pm (although it's interesting to note that Guede didn't at that point realise how precisely this time could be established, and thus he claims that he met Meredith before 9pm). But Guede's narrative requires him to spend quite some time sitting on the toilet - in order to give time for the "real killers" to enter the cottage, confront Meredith, and attack her. So that's why he works back from the 9.20 scream and has to place the start of his visit to the bathroom at around 9.10. This gives his story the requisite 10 minutes for the "real killers" to enter, confront and stab, while he (Guede) sits in blissful ignorance on the toilet listening to his iPod (which also gives hi an excuse for not hearing any escalating argument or other preamble to the stabbing).

So, where are we up to? Well, Guede knows that he has to work back from the 9.20 timing of the scream. He also knows that he has to place himself in the bathroom for a good 10 minutes prior to the scream, in order to support his story of being oblivious to the "real killers" entering the cottage, confronting Meredith and killing her. He therefore knows he has to pretend that he left Meredith's room to go to the bathroom at around 9.10. But he also has to try to explain the sexual contact, so he invents the story of consensual heavy petting. But since Meredith only arrived home at around 9pm, and since Guede has to pretend that he went to the bathroom by 9.10pm, this only leaves a 10-minute period for Guede and Meredith to a) meet, b) have some sort of discussion, and c) engage in all the escalating heavy petting that Guede needs to claim took place. This is yet another clear indicator that Guede's story is scuppered by the timings that he knows he has to weave into his narrative.
 
Organized internet hate

We have experts, they have Kermit.
Well said - Isn't that the truth. Oh we forgot, they have Ergon too!

I struggle to understand what is the ultimate influence of the hate sites. And are these sites a web 2.0 by-product that needs some special laws to make it clear what is over the line? Or is it free speech and should remain that way?

For me -they never influenced me, though I sought their opinion up front. I formed an opinion of the absolute innocence of Raffaele and Amanda in the fall of 2009 as the questions about the evidence were starting to just become known. I was interested in the facts and I went to TJMK and felt it was a sort of Pravda with their tone and their unprofessional anonymous characters. Sure PQ used his true identity - but he has no credentials and he just writes opinion pieces there.
PMF came off as a strange social fest of hate.

What TJMK writes doesn't mesh completely with news reports and gives you a feeling of blatant spin. And this is ingenuous to the stated cause "true justice". True justice would pragmatically look at the various sides of information. The fact that they never do this is a significant credibility hit. I think most people get this and that is why they get angered when they read their stuff - it's like walking into a store and the salesperson won't let you just look around at what's on the shelf without telling you what you want to buy.

Now take IIP for example. Yes, it represents a single stance/opinion that Raffaele and Amanda have been wrongfully convicted, but that is given to you up front- it isn't hidden behind a vague seemingly broader purposed cause (i.e. True Justice...). The site provides information that promotes its goal - helping to bring awareness to the facts that expose what they believe has been a wrongful conviction... and you have real people using their real identities and and relevant credentials bringing forward their analysis. They allow all points of views in their public forum and don't ban people for challenging the dominant opinion.

I fear that hate sites could get a more savvy in the future. Some might actually find fringe professionals that put their real identity on the line behind an extreme opinion. On the other hand - I think internet users become more savvy about how to treat the various information sources on the internet knowing full well that any one of us can setup a hate oriented community site that looks relatively well put together. And for the sake of humanity I sure hope people know by now not to trust any stand-alone "fact" written in the comments below a news article or youtube video!
 
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I think continuing the rebuttal of this argumentum ad hominem is just going to get more posts shoved in AAH. If people have nothing better to do than dismiss the opinion of a medical professional with post-graduate degrees and court-room experience in forensic pathology because - gasp! - this person is - gasp! - a veterinarian, I think they've run out of arguments.

Rolfe.


Agreed. I wish that people would stick to discussing the case (that is, if they have any coherent points or arguments to put forward about the case). If that were to happen, others would not have to bother thinking about whether or not to respond to ad hominems or other personal attacks. It's patently obvious that the problem is almost always initiated by a particular small group of posters, while others then get dragged in by virtue of responses. My clear interest on this thread is to engage in a debate about whether or not Knox and/or Sollecito should be convicted or acquitted of the murder of Meredith Kercher. I wish that this was the only thing that was discussed on this thread, and that there were no temptations to respond to personal attacks from others. I have absolutely no problem with my arguments or opinions being attacked - if the attacks are reasoned and constructive.
 
Gee,
I didn't even make the list. Will have to try harder.

Did that guy ever escape?

You never know what's on his mind, you know, the folks from PMF are so unpredictable. Therefore, I think you're on the list, you're way too important for them to not include you. Not sure what number though.

Didn't that guy die of some kind of a tumour?
 
I decided to give Kermit's new powerpoint a look and it took less than a minute to see that Kermit is still stuck in 2008. I read 2 of Kermit's lies and put it in the recycle bin where it belongs.

Here's the 2 points that let me know I was wasting my time reading any further.

1. Kermit continues to push the postal police arrival lies which have been thoroughly refuted. You can read more about the postal police arrival on IIP.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/Prosecutionscase.html#anchor_107

2. Kermit has no idea what he is talking about with regard to the blood evidence on Meredith's body because he has not seen the evidence. The blood evidence on Meredith's body does not suggest that her bra was removed at a later time to stage a sexual attack. There are clearly blood droplets on Meredith's bare breasts proving the bra was removed while Meredith was still breathing. Pushing this lie to support staging is one of the most egregious lies told in this case that began with Mignini. The truth is Rudy Guede moved Meredith out of the large puddle of blood so he could sexually assault her. Ron Hendry showed this in great detail here: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry8.html


This is one comment on TJMK about Kermit's new masterpiece: "Haha, very instructive and also very funny !"

Someone should tell them that there is a time and place for humor. They need to learn from Ron Hendry if they want to properly analyze the case using photographs. We have experts, they have Kermit.

Bruce, I'm with you on this one entirely.

It made me sick to my stomach to go through this BS. It was so innapropriate. Kermit basically made a cartoon, inserted some "funny" things. Made the whole presentation looking like a joke.

It's not haha funny, it's not funny at all.

Not to mention all the lies you pointed out and misinterpretations. It's gross and so wrong. Kermit should be banned from any kind of activity regarding this case. What's even worse, the PMF site(S) and TJMK site are enjoying this kind of presenting the case. I always thought they want justice for Meredith Kercher.

The thing is, all they care about is to go after Amanda Knox. They don't care about Meredith.
 
Hi everyone. It's looking like a slow month, and this is the most active discussion, so here I am.

For anyone who is interested in the December 18 visit to the crime scene, here is the whole thing:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/sopralluogo.mp4

I reduced the frame size and turned up the compression to create a small (140mb) rip that includes both segments of this lengthy video.

Here is a clip showing the collection of samples in the bathroom on November 3:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/bathroom_sample_collection.mp4
 
Well said - Isn't that the truth. Oh we forgot, they have Ergon too!

I struggle to understand what is the ultimate influence of the hate sites. And are these sites a web 2.0 by-product that needs some special laws to make it clear what is over the line? Or is it free speech and should remain that way?

The truth comes out over time, and has in this case. I don't believe the material on these sites has much impact with the public at large. Certainly it has no credibility with opinion leaders in the media and elsewhere. My concern is the effect it could have on a single, disturbed individual who might not be on anyone's radar.
 
Oh Dear, OMG, Oh Dear

How could Judge Hellman not pay appropriate acclaim,homage and heed to the game changing 'get out of jail immediately', (or at least at any hour or at least to house arrest), information posted in so many of the 58,345+ posts here and confirmed here by:
1) A Library Card Holder
2) A Googler
3) A teacher of 7th grade *gifted* students
4) a communications engineer
5) A Vertical Gardener
6) A Veterinarian
7) A) self produced, self submitted You Tube

Apologies if I missed any other holders of higher post graduate degrees and professionally renowned TOD pontificators from here.

RE your concluding question:
One cannot even imagine Judge Hellman could possibly ever overlook this in light of information from the above sources here.
But in that ever so remote 'idiot like' instance; yes, all the information from the appropriately PhD holders and fully professionally accredited experts from the first trial is thereby accepted as accurate and certainly can be used by jurors at this level.

But this is really no cause for concern.
After all, these same above sources have unequivocally proclaimed..."It is over" and the "truth has set them free"..... at any hour.:cool:


8) A 19th century American naval explorer linked to Puget Sound
 
taking the Kercher family to court

One thing thats need to be clear up.
Its a question which I do not know the answer to.
Can the Knox family sue the Kercher family for slander in the english courts?
Just asking
:confused:
 
Hi everyone. It's looking like a slow month, and this is the most active discussion, so here I am.

For anyone who is interested in the December 18 visit to the crime scene, here is the whole thing:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/sopralluogo.mp4

I reduced the frame size and turned up the compression to create a small (140mb) rip that includes both segments of this lengthy video.

Here is a clip showing the collection of samples in the bathroom on November 3:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/bathroom_sample_collection.mp4

Thank you!

It's unbelievable to see it. Not once did they change gloves, not once did they change shoecovers. Horde of forensic geniuses shuffle their feet all over the cottage, then raid the murder room, trampling and rummaging everything for more then hour. There is no organisation, everybody grab and reposition whatever they want, without any documentation.

From the photos at InjusticeInPerugia I understand that the video starts after they "worked" on the room for some time already. The mattress is out of the room and the fixed lights installed.

It's only after that shuffling and trampling that they did the luminol and sampled the floor for "mixed" DNA, right? I can't understand how anyone could treat those "findings" seriously.
 
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One thing thats need to be clear up.
Its a question which I do not know the answer to.
Can the Knox family sue the Kercher family for slander in the english courts?
Just asking
:confused:


Almost certainly not - and nor would they even want to, I should imagine.

But on that topic, I think that most civil courts anywhere in the world would accept that referring to Knox or Sollecito as murderers (and any associated descriptions) would be fair comment from the time of the first verdict up until any acquittal. In addition, I strongly suspect that any other of the unpleasant generalities aimed at Knox and Sollecito (not by the Kercher family) would also fail to count as defamatory, as it's hard to defame a murderer - even if the comments can be proven to be false.

Unfortunately, it's an regrettable by-product of a miscarriage of justice of this nature that the victims of the miscarriage have to endure a barrage of unpleasant (and often untrue) comments to which they have absolutely no redress. The fact is that libel/defamation laws in most jurisdictions require that the disputed comments are not only not able to be proven to be true by the person making them, but also that they are injurious to the reputation of the person(s) at whom they are directed.
 
One thing thats need to be clear up.
Its a question which I do not know the answer to.
Can the Knox family sue the Kercher family for slander in the english courts?
Just asking
:confused:

What family? Apart from John Kercher's articles did anyone else said anything?

What slander?
 
Thank you!

It's unbelievable to see it. Not once did they change gloves, not once did they change shoecovers. Horde of forensic geniuses shuffle their feet all over the cottage, then raid the murder room, trampling and rummaging everything for more then hour. There is no organisation, everybody grab and reposition whatever they want, without any documentation.

From the photos at InjusticeInPerugia I understand that the video starts after they "worked" on the room for some time already. The mattress is out of the room and the fixed lights installed.

It's only after that shuffling and trampling that they did the luminol and sampled the floor for "mixed" DNA, right? I can't understand how anyone could treat those "findings" seriously.


No, but, but.......Piktor did a superb experimental reconstruction in which he proved that there was nothing wrong with the collection of the bra clasp :D
 
Your lack of factual content is uncharacteristic as well as unflattering

Double and sent as PM
 
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length of time for a CE run

Secondly, I don't know how long these tests actually take. (Maybe halides1 knows something here.) For all I know, maybe no tests were performed six days before the knife was tested, but on that day a number of Kercher-related items were tested before the knife. This level of mendacity would hardly be beyond "turnip juice" Comodi, especially given that she was apparently prepared to submit bogus documents to the court regarding negative controls. After all, if there really were an actual delay of six days between the previous test and the knife (and not merely between testing sessions, say) why wouldn't we have heard about this "fact" before? Why wouldn't Stefanoni have emphasized it all along? Why wouldn't Conti and Vecchiotti have noticed?

komponisto,

The cycle time for a capillary electrophoresis run plus the pre-run preparations is about 30 minutes for the Applied Biosystems, Inc. (ABI) 310 (I cannot recall which machine Stefanoni used). I have previously stressed the importance of the electronic data files, but I think that the machine logs are also important and may hold information on what runs were done when and in what order. If Italy's laws concerning DNA discovery are not explicit about routinely turning over machine logs, standard operating procedures, and electronic data files, then this case should be Exhibit A on the need for such reform. MOO.
 
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Almost certainly not - and nor would they even want to, I should imagine.

But on that topic, I think that most civil courts anywhere in the world would accept that referring to Knox or Sollecito as murderers (and any associated descriptions) would be fair comment from the time of the first verdict up until any acquittal. In addition, I strongly suspect that any other of the unpleasant generalities aimed at Knox and Sollecito (not by the Kercher family) would also fail to count as defamatory, as it's hard to defame a murderer - even if the comments can be proven to be false.

Unfortunately, it's an regrettable by-product of a miscarriage of justice of this nature that the victims of the miscarriage have to endure a barrage of unpleasant (and often untrue) comments to which they have absolutely no redress. The fact is that libel/defamation laws in most jurisdictions require that the disputed comments are not only not able to be proven to be true by the person making them, but also that they are injurious to the reputation of the person(s) at whom they are directed.


I agree that they would never pursue such a claim.

I'm not sure, though, that anyone gets a pass for calling them murderers or the like simply because a court wrongfully convicted them. I think that an individual statement would stand on its own two feet. Incorrectly calling someone a murderer is defamatory per se. There might be a defense of reasonableness or justification available to the defendant, but (i) this is something that the defendant would have to prove, and (ii) this would trigger an inquiry into the facts of the defendant's beliefs.

Take Barbie Nadeau as an example. She calls Knox a "Student Killer" on the cover of her book. If wrong, this is defamatory per se. In defense, Nadeau would argue that she reasonably believed this was true because of her "investigation" and because the court said so. Knox might reply that Nadeau did not conduct a proper investigation and that Nadeau's writings and conduct show a degree of malice that falsifies her defenses. Frankly, IMO, I think Barbie has gotten some legal advice to this effect and that's why she seems to have changed her tone now that the wind is blowing in the other direction.
 
I think that the sequence of events probably went like this: Guede killed and molested Meredith; he then cleaned the blood off himself and his clothing in the small bathroom (leaving the dilute blood partial print on the bathmat in the process); he then returned to Meredith's room; he covered Meredith's body by pulling the duvet off her bed and placing it over her on the floor; he then tipped her tote bag's contents out onto the now-exposed mattress in his search for money, cards and the keys that he needed to get out of the friont door; he exited Meredith's room again, stepping into some of the pooling blood as he walked from the bed to the bedroom door; he locked the bedroom door behind him, using the keys that he'd just found, and walked down the hallway to the front door - leaving a faint trail of bloody shoeprints as he did so; finally, he unlocked the front door and left the cottage, neglecting to lock the door behind him.


I think you are on the right track but a few of the details don't quite fit.

- The duvet under Meredith's right arm. There are of course other alternative answers. Perhaps it was tucked under to clear the path in front of the bed or perhaps it isn't actually tucked but just looks like it is.

- The footprints leaving the room. There isn't an apparent origin for these footprints starting with a fresh step in pooling blood. An alternative here is that the blood was already on the shoes from right after the attack when Rudy was steping on the pillow. Then the shoes were removed and left in the room as Rudy walked to the bathroom and back in his stocking feet. Just before locking Meredith's door and leaving the cottage, Rudy puts his still bloody shoes back on.

ETA
- Dumping the tote would leave a collection of small items and debris where it was dumped. Is there any evidence of this to help confirm that theory?

ETTA
- The fitted bed sheet doesn't appear to have been slept in. This would be confirmed if the second one was with the bloody sheet on the floor. Also, has there been any sighting of the second top sheet?
 
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Isn't it more likely that the killer (i.e. Guede) tipped these items - including the book - out of her bag onto the bed as he was searching for the keys he needed and items of value after the murder? For me, the most persuasive argument for this scenario is that the items are lying on the mattress. Had Meredith removed the items on arriving home, the duvet would have been lying in its normal position on top of the mattress, and the items would have been placed onto the duvet. Of course the items could originally have been lying on top of the duvet, but were tipped onto the mattress when the killer (Guede) pulled the duvet off the bed to cover Meredith. But I still favour the theory that the items were tipped out of the bag by the killer.

I think that the sequence of events probably went like this: Guede killed and molested Meredith; he then cleaned the blood off himself and his clothing in the small bathroom (leaving the dilute blood partial print on the bathmat in the process); he then returned to Meredith's room; he covered Meredith's body by pulling the duvet off her bed and placing it over her on the floor; he then tipped her tote bag's contents out onto the now-exposed mattress in his search for money, cards and the keys that he needed to get out of the friont door; he exited Meredith's room again, stepping into some of the pooling blood as he walked from the bed to the bedroom door; he locked the bedroom door behind him, using the keys that he'd just found, and walked down the hallway to the front door - leaving a faint trail of bloody shoeprints as he did so; finally, he unlocked the front door and left the cottage, neglecting to lock the door behind him.

but the duvet, and sheet too, would have been off the bed before the murderer sat down , or kneeled down to look under the bed, leaving the bloody knife imprint on the bedsheet. Thats the key point, the bloody knife print was logically left immediately after the stabbing.

if the scenario was that she was attacked and killed quickly, the murderer then sitting down pressing the bloody knife on the bed and possibly on the other side of Rudy was the purse.

did Rudy stab her, then yank the sheets and duvet off throwing them on top of her, then he sat down to rummage through the purse and left the bloody knife imprint?
 
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