Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Porkpie Hat]

Releasing the pentagon tapes would stop a lot of the truther nonsense related to the Pentagon.

Why did Pasquale D'amuro allow the steel to be removed?

Releasing the tapes would #1. result in the same crap we see out of 911 truthers as we saw with the previous tapes were released, #2. result in calls from truthers that the tapes were fake if they don't show anything and #3. result in possible law suits as the tapes were not all owned by the Pentagon meaning it's up to the owners of the tapes to release them.

The steel was moved to facilitate the investigation...why wouldn't they move it?

 

[Porkpie Hat]

Form 357-j. Cross out "machine gun" and write in "parking".


Twinstead, didn't you hear, it's part of the new "Obama plan".

Odd.

My 357-j has check boxes for "thermite packed baby koala" and "red robin death ray" but no machine gun.

I really need to speak with someone at head office...do you have Howie Mandel's extension #?

 

[DeathDart]

Holy crap. You can't stop these irrational diatribes even if you wanted to, can you?

When they have you boxed into a corner it is a bit difficult to concentrate on something else.

I think preventing the ascendency of an Imperial America would be to most peoples benefit.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Ah, the dancing Israeli's another example of the Imperial Bush's Total Information control.

The answer is simple.

They either had local image storage, or they didn't. That means that they had film or tape OR they could only send an image (satellite or local feed), but not retain any images.

If they had film, then all you need to do is look at the film. If they are filming before the first impact, then that is really bad.

If they don't have film or tape, (the smart way), they can send the entire sequence (including before the impact) by radio waves and they are not carrying anything that will incriminate themselves.

The Naudet film is disturbing, because I don't think the camera operator can see the path of the plane.

After the plane passes, the cameraman pauses, and then locks on to the World Trade Center and he is NOT tracking the plane. Staging the shot. It also appears that an individual in the background (of the scene where they are sniffing for gas in the middle of the street) is giving hand signals to the camera man.

The Naudet film takes about 2 days to get to the Networks. It probably needed some editing.

http://www.911foreknowledge.com/staged.htm

"There was so much that we didn't know about that first day - who had attacked us, how, why": James Hanlon (1:32:17). One question that never seems to occur to anyone in the entire film, as they watch events unfolding, is where the US Air Force had been, or - another one - why they, as taxpayers, should carry on funding a trillion-dollar Department of Defense that was totally incapable of protecting the country's capital and its biggest city - or even its own HQ. If the film-makers wanted to avoid political controversy, why didn't they cut out all appearances by
George W. Bush, the most divisive US President in decades - arguably ever?

 

[DeathDart]

Releasing the tapes would #1. result in the same crap we see out of 911 truthers as we saw with the previous tapes were released, #2. result in calls from truthers that the tapes were fake if they don't show anything and #3. result in possible law suits as the tapes were not all owned by the Pentagon meaning it's up to the owners of the tapes to release them.

The steel was moved to facilitate the investigation...why wouldn't they move it?

When the Bushies wouldn't let anything out without a fight, it doesn't take much of an imagination to think it is a conspiracy.
Step 1 make it seem like a conspiracy by withholding information.
Step 2 reveal just enough to mess with their heads.

By releasing all the tapes you set both of the above conditions to false.

They drop the pentagon dead end and start following real trails of evidence.

The real trails of evidence tend to lead back to the Bushies. These are just distractions because we let them get away with it.

 

[Sunstealer]

the fire wasn't hot? what planes? you mean the movie projector planes that Hollywood produced going into the towers....they even got the skyline wrong on one of their fake shots!!! black smoke coming out of a building = a cold fine...no O2 = black smoke...no o2 = cold fire not hot enough to burn or weaken any of the steel in the towers!!! none! Smart people who care about their country are not going to shut up until we die...in my care at least another 70 years....so if I were you I would quit wasting your time trying to sell the Official story...as it has way too many holes in it!

I suggest you finish school first and try to get the 2 or 3 qualifications you are only capable of attaining. I also suggest you wait until you are able to vote and can afford to pay for your own accommodation and internet connection from your future, meagre burger flipping salary. Then you can lobby your democratic representative, stand for election etc, etc and actually try to do something rather than watching youtube and spouting long debunked nonsense on an obscure internet forum.

 

[DeathDart]

http://www.911foreknowledge.com/staged.htm

They control too much of the information to prove that there was any interference with the military. Too much of the testimony was made secret, that means that the senators and congressman who heard the testimony were not allowed to keep notes. It is real hard to connect the dots without notes. The military or maybe just the Bush Administration will say it is a custody and control issue for secrets.

You have to get their people out of the way to get to the information.

I like to stand behind their people at bus stops.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I think preventing the ascendency of an Imperial America would be to most peoples benefit.

That's all well and nice... one can appreciate your "just cause"; except for the fact that you using political diatribes to argue against an engineering report that bases its conclusions on mathematical simulations, real world data input, etc. etc. You continue to ramble on and on about Bush worse than anything I can ever expect to run into via the politics forum, but you appear very stubborn about avoiding any technical discussion related to the report's actual content; you know, the content whose conclusions you claim are egregiously wrong?

Why don't you put your Bush paranoia aside for the time being and start giving us an explanation? What details of the report do you have problems with that significantly affect its conclusions? Can you please be specific about the content? We know you think they are liars and think they work to the government's bidding. Point out the contents of the report that are bald-faced lies now please? It's publicly available after all; all 10,000 pages.

 

[Sunstealer]

The potential (evidence) was destroyed. If there was anything to find there, it is gone.

OK. Lets say that every single piece of steel from both WTCs was catalogued and accounted for. So we know exactly which piece was where in the structure and we know which pieces were in the fire affected zones.

What do YOU propose we test for? How are we going to do those tests? What are you expecting to find? etc, etc.

 

[Porkpie Hat]

When the Bushies wouldn't let anything out without a fight, it doesn't take much of an imagination to think it is a conspiracy.
Step 1 make it seem like a conspiracy by withholding information.
Step 2 reveal just enough to mess with their heads.

By releasing all the tapes you set both of the above conditions to false.

They drop the pentagon dead end and start following real trails of evidence.

The real trails of evidence tend to lead back to the Bushies. These are just distractions because we let them get away with it.

Releasing all the tapes would "prove BOTH conditions false" eh?

History has proven you wrong already.

There's a plethora of proof that a plane hit the Pentagon and nothing but a few agenda driven ideologues with empty hands that say it didn't. In order for your fantasy to be accepted as reality, reality itself must be ignored.

Bushie, bushie, bushie.

 

[DeathDart]

That's all well and nice... one can appreciate your "just cause"; except for the fact that you using political diatribes to argue against an engineering report that bases its conclusions on mathematical simulations, real world data input, etc. etc. You continue to ramble on and on about Bush worse than anything I can ever expect to run into via the politics forum, but you appear very stubborn about avoiding any technical discussion related to the report's actual content; you know, the content whose conclusions you claim are egregiously wrong?

Why don't you put your Bush paranoia aside for the time being and start giving us an explanation? What details of the report do you have problems with that significantly affect its conclusions? Can you please be specific about the content? We know you think they are liars and think they work to the government's bidding. Point out the contents of the report that are bald-faced lies now please? It's publicly available after all; all 10,000 pages.

No, that is too much trouble, look at pages 3 and 4 of the NIST NCSTAR 1-3B report. They are telling you that they don't have enough samples. They describe by understating how difficult it was to obtain what they did have.

This is supposed to be a report specific to the impacts, not a generic fire in a WTC tower. A single girders condition after the impact can change the out come by several minutes. Several girders actual conditions after impact can explain the timing of events and show actual cause for a collapse.

Or the physical evidence could have told another more obvious story.

The reconstructed floors would still be mangled by the collapse, but information is still there.

Was still there.

 

[sylvan8798]

The American Media has told people that a Jet wing can cut through steel reinforced concrete designed to withstand the impact of a high speed jet impact.

The only reinforced concrete in the WTC was the floor slabs. The columns were steel sections.

 

[sylvan8798]

The steel gets thinner as you get higher up.
Some of the steel retains its positional markings.

The floors were framed with long span bar joists. They were the same on every floor above the first few, except for the mechanical floors. The joists did not get thinner as you got higher up. Still not sure what having a bunch of twisted rods that smashed down 80 stories would get you. What I do know is that if they HAD painstakingly reconstructed the entire tower, you would find some OTHER demand that would convince you "if only they had done it."

 

[DeathDart]

How can they know the conditions of the girders after the impacts without the girders themselves.

How can they model the extent of the fires without having the data for the girders that were exposed to the fire.

Everything that they don't have physical data for becomes a guess.

The more guesses, the more the solution moves from a specific model to a general model. You can't escape from nonexistent data.

 

[NoahFence]

show actual cause for a collapse.

We know the cause of the collapse. I knew the cause of the collapse before it even hit the ground. Why can't you figure it out after 10 years?

 

[Clayton Moore]

everyone agrees that jet fires could not melt steel...

Who cares? Firefighters (I'm one) and engineers (I'm one) both know that generally speaking, you don't need to melt a structural element to get it to fail.

so it was either aluminum or something that was melting the steel.

Or lead, or something else altogether.

Would you agree that if...if it was a conspiracy, a scenario...where they are in WTC 7...they look and see "Oh crap some charges are going off we have to bring it down." Then they do so. Does that not at least make some sense?

It not only makes no sense whatsoever, it is anti-sensical.

Why do you need to blow up the towers at all? Even if the towers had somehow managed to survive the impacts and fires without collapsing, the terrorists had already killed hundreds of people, caused hundreds of billions of dollars in economic damage, and rendered a big chunk of Lower Manhattan useless for an extended period of time. They had already destroyed a chunk of the Pentagon. They had destroyed four passenger aircraft and dealt a massive blow to the airline industry. What, if WTC 1 and 2 hadn't fallen, everybody would have just shrugged their shoulders and gone about their business? This stupid conspiracy "theory" requires the evil geniuses to raise their risk of exposure to the nth degree by adding an unbelievably complicated element requiring massive amounts of modifications to structural elements with nobody noticing, and gigantic amounts of explosives, or thermite, or nanothermite, or the use of nuclear bombs or magic space rays - the "truthers" can't agree. Because, of course, if you're going to commit a crime which will certainly get the death penalty if you're caught, is to make it as complicated and clue-intensive as posssible.

Didn't you ever stop to think how stupid this premise is?

And now you want to put the conspirators in a building which is well within the collapse zone of one of their targets? WTF for? So they can improvise in setting off all these tons and tons of Hushaboom that have been laboriously emplaced over months? And are set off how, exactly, in heavily-damaged, burning steel buildings, in an RF-dense environment?

I repeat, didn't you ever stop to think how stupid this premise is?

And then you're saying that they blew up WTC 7 to cover their tracks? I guess because destroying a 47-story skyscraper, thus drawing attention to a building most Americans had never heard of, is easier and more secure than using a couple of paper shredders and a degausser?

Didn't you ever stop to think how blazingly stupid this premise is?

Certainly stundie material.

 

[DeathDart]

The floors were framed with long span bar joists. They were the same on every floor above the first few, except for the mechanical floors. The joists did not get thinner as you got higher up. Still not sure what having a bunch of twisted rods that smashed down 80 stories would get you. What I do know is that if they HAD painstakingly reconstructed the entire tower, you would find some OTHER demand that would convince you "if only they had done it."

I don't need the entire tower all that I need is 3 or 4 floors of steel. We already know what happens to the rest of the building when the collapse begins.

So we needed to identify the steel from the affected floors, once that is done, get rid of the rest. A lot material was easy to identify as NOT coming from the floors we were interested in. Survey it, take a picture of it, from a couple of angles, get rid of it.

Wait they got rid of the affected floors and pretty much everything else too.

 

[NoahFence]

Aircraft impacts and fire made the towers collapse.

I knew that before it even hit the ground, without seeing any steel with my own two eyes, and never leaving the comfort of my couch.

I've yet to be proven wrong.

10 years and you people are still grasping at straws!

 

[NoahFence]

DeathDart - when are you going to answer Sunstealer's question in post #10469?

 

[DeathDart]

Politics and ideology and central to understanding anything about this conspiracy.
Afghanistan
Israel
Iran
Iraq
Kuwait
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
United States

How simple can it be? How many factions are in each country, which factions were aligned with what other factions, at that time.

What is so hard about that?