Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's one of the reasons why I'm not so optimistic about the future outcome. She may have knowingly provided the court with false information yesterday. If she's willing to go that far to secure Knox's conviction, then Knox is in real trouble. Perhaps the next time she pulls out "new" evidence, it won't be an obvious pile of BS like the "control documents" and will deceive Hellman.

The quote above is about Commodi obviously.
I would say that in this instance she's likely to just be repeating the lies Steff told her.

Well, thats it for today. I think I'll toddle off and sue myself....
 
So to defend the work of a criminal lab where life or death (literally) are on the line you equate the independent experts' critique as no different than criticisms of sports testing labs by those individuals who were caught? Of course Johnson and Landis had lots to lose - medals, trophies, money and reputations - explains their motivation to contest those labs findings (BTW - remind me - what are Ben & Floyd's scientific bonfides that make them experts in any field of science.

Please explain what were C & V motivations? Hmm - never mind - I forgot about the power and influence of Marriott PR machine.:rolleyes:

They should start an ice cream company with their introductory flavors, Steroid Summer of Seoul and French Fried Green Testosterone (it tastes much better than it sounds).
 
[IMGL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=4096[/IMGL]

You tell me, can you see the reflection of the water? Do you see the crap?

I don't believe what is written here as being from Raffaele's diary is the whole story. We need a better analysis of the translation from the Italian if we are to take it as a literal statement. Is Raffaele quoting what he remembers Amanda saying to him "I believe what Amanda had told me."? He is not saying that he has confirmed what Amanda said because he looked for himself but only that he "believes" her.



I look...and I study and I try to imagine...and for the life of me I still don’t understand the bidet. Perhaps if the water sprayed up? I know they are quite popular in Europe....my imagination tells me a purpose but if I made that big a mess I feel the shower would be more appropriate....

It does look like a perfect place to rinse off a bloody pant leg and a shoe perhaps. But this fixture puzzles me.
 
I think that if the guilter agenda includes defending the reputation of the Perugian police, as it certainly seems to do for some curious reason or another, guilters should be very careful not to close off their own lines of retreat. If it turns out Raffaele is innocent and Amanda is innocent, you really want to have some story to tell as to how the DNA of two innocent people was found on that bra clasp and that knife other than a deliberate frame job...

What I want to know is why no one defending the bra clasp as evidence insisting the defense must 'prove' the contamination source is trying to explain the profiles of the other two or so males on the clasp. If Raffaele's y-halotype being present is absolute proof he was in there murdering Meredith with nothing whatsoever to corroborate it, then how about these other two guys? The wicked little hip-wiggler must have seduced two other besotted saps! We now have six people in this little room, evidence for three of them limited solely to this tiny clasp. What on earth could they have been doing with it? Is this how they cast their magic spell to completely remove all other traces of themselves from the room, and Amanda's as well? They all put their pinky-finger or something on it and communed with the Dark Goddess of Woo?
 
So do the new alleles change the profile to someone other than Raffaele or is it these alleles that bring in "unknown profiles of someone"?


Each human cell contains 23 pairs of DNA. Of each of these pairs, one was contributed by the mother and one was contributed by the father. Except for one pair, the DNA in the two strands that make up the pair are pretty much identical apart from minor genetic variations. If you think about it, everybody needs the same basic machinery to make their bodies work. You can't just swap out 3% of the mechanisms with something completely different because the parts aren't guaranteed to be compatible. We have genetic variations that have been selected over millions of genations to be compatible and there is one kind of variation that you can find quite often because it doesn't appear make any difference. This other variation is the Short Tandum Repeat or STR.

The DNA profiling kits attach florescent markers to specific DNA sequences on fragments that contain STR's and then measure the size of the fragment by seeing how fast they get pulled through a gel column. Each selected fragment typically genates 2 peaks (one from each of the paired DNA strands) unless the two strands are the same length and then there is only 1 peak. If you get more than 2 peaks for the same marker, it indicates that you have more than one person's DNA.

What you don't get from the profiling kit is any kind of labels that tell you which peaks go together for the same individual. All you can do is give a probability that a specific individual could be a contributor to the set. Each extra peak basically cuts that probability in half (actually it's a complex combinatorial problem that I don't want to get into right now).
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by bolint
I mean that his DNA was wiped off long before police went in on Nov 6.


bolint,

There are good shedders and bad shedders, and how recently one washed his or her hands also plays a role in how much DNA gets transferred. There was a study (possibly Ladd et al., from circa 2001) that indicated that the last person to handle a polypropylene tube did not necessarily contribute the most DNA. However, let me paraphrase what Dr. Riley said about contamination, that it is unlikely that one can prove the route of contamination. Just to clarify one point, transfer of DNA from the knob or door itself (where his fingerprints were found) would only constitute contamination if a police officer were responsible. If a hypothetical burglar did it, it would be secondary transfer.


I know Im two pages behind here...sorry. But the police started messing up...errrr investigating on Nov 2nd 2007....not Nov 6th.

I think RS DNA got on the clasp exactly in the same manner that the two other unidentified male profiles got on that bra clasp. Im certain of it! Nuff said.
 
Last edited:
I look...and I study and I try to imagine...and for the life of me I still don’t understand the bidet. Perhaps if the water sprayed up? I know they are quite popular in Europe....my imagination tells me a purpose but if I made that big a mess I feel the shower would be more appropriate....

It does look like a perfect place to rinse off a bloody pant leg and a shoe perhaps. But this fixture puzzles me.


Have you read the wikipedia article? BidetWP

Think of it as somewhere between a sink and a bathtub. However, there was no blood in or near any of these fixtures. Perhaps you are thinking of the other bathroom.
 
Since Novelli is a research scientist and not a law enforcement type (in contrast to someone like Garofano, for example), I assumed his inclination would be to uphold scientific rigor. I would have expected him to know better than most people how easy contamination is if proper care is not taken.


Yes of course...but that not how the mafiso work...they decide on a story and everyone sticks to it.

If this guy actually said these words then hes not a pimple on a real scientists a$$.
 
JREF2010,

I posted a long comment on the clasp about three weeks ago, and you can also check my blog for two articles. Here is a link to a different blog on the DNA evidence in this case. The answer to your question is not straightforward, but I would say that even if one allows that it is Raffaele's DNA on the clasp, the presence of other alleles is devastating to the prosecution's case. If their DNA ended up on the clasp innocently, why not Raffaele's?

Thanks, I been looking at that a lot today....didnt know it was your work. Very good article and fairly easy for a novice.
http://forensicdnaconsulting.wordpr...perts’-report-in-the-amanda-knox-case-part-i/

The translation of the C&V report is up for a re-read too, though its very technical.
http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/welcome/#comments
 
This is a pretty good summary of where we're at right now. There is indeed other evidence that - if one goes with the prosecution interpretation - is significantly incriminating towards Knox and Sollecito. The main areas here are these (giving the prosecution interpretation, followed by what many of us here believe to be a more rational interpretation):

1) The mixed DNA in the bathroom sink/bidet: The prosecution allege that Knox's DNA and Meredith's blood DNA were deposited at the same time, meaning that Knox must have been involved in the murder. A more rational explanation is that Knox's DNA was already present in the sink and bidet, given that she used that bathroom regularly. Furthermore, the crime scene video clearly shows that the samples were not correctly collected using a careful dabbing technique: instead, the forensics official (who also doubled as the photographer!) clearly smeared wide areas - meaning that the dilute spots of Meredith's blood were potentially mixed with any other latent DNA that was present through the whole arc of the smear.

2) The "staged" break-in: The prosecution alleges that there is no way that the break-in could have been real, and that only Knox would have a reason to stage it. But the prosecution based this on the flimsiest of evidence, and apparently didn't even conduct a proper search of the ground below the broken window (this area of ground was used as a cigarette and phone-call area for the police!). The rational explanation is that the evidence found is entirely consistent with a real break-in, including the distribution of glass, the placement of the rock which broke the glass, and the presence of a hair which was probably Guede's on the window frame. Wonder what happened to that hair, huh.....?

3) The partial print on the bathmat: Prosecutors allege that it's possible to match this print accurately to Sollecito,, and to actively exclude it as a match to Guede. A rational explanation is that it's essentially impossible to say that the print is anything other than the dilute-blood print made by an adult male with above-average foot size. The prosecution's "expert" conducted a suspect-centric examination of the print, and it appears that he deliberately chose his measurements to match those of Sollecito's reference print. The reality is that the print on the mat is made on a tufted, textured towelling mat with a saturated blood/water mixture, making precise measurements totally impossible. The rational conclusion is that the print is almost certainly Guede's, but at the very least it cannot be positively attributed to Sollecito. In addition, Massei's "reasoning" came up with this gem: the print contained Meredith's blood; Meredith's blood was only present in her bedroom; therefore whoever made the print bot the blood onto his bare foot inside Meredith's room, and walked to the bathroom; and therefore the absence of similar bloody prints between Meredith's room and the bathroom is evidence of a post-crime clean-up!! The rational explanation for this is that the killer hadn't stepped in blood at that point, but went to wash blood off his clothing in the bathroom (the print was clearly made in a very dilute blood/water mixture, so it wasn't made by stepping directly into Meredith's blood anyhow). The killer placed his foot in a pool of blood/water in either the bidet or the shower while washing blood off his clothing, then stepped onto the mat.

4) The testimony of Quintavalle: The prosecution alleges that Quintavalle's testimony is reliable and accurate, and apparently Massei's court somehow accepted this. Quintavalle says that Knox came into his shop at 8am on the morning after the murder, and browsed in the cleaning products area. Since Knox claims she was in bed at Sollecito's apartment until around 10am, Quintavalle's testimony would be very damaging if true. But according to Quintavalle's employee, when the police visited shortly after the murder, Quintavalle didn't recall seeing either Knox or Sollecito - despite even being shown photos of the two. He only came forward with his story a year after the murder, at the "request" of a newspaper journalist. The rational explanation is that Quintavalle is either honestly confused (maybe he's retrospectively convinced himself that he really did see Knox that morning), or he's simply a liar. Either way, the way his testimony came to light clearly significantly affects its reliability and veracity to the degree that it's probably useless.


And there are other, more minor, areas that can be similarly discussed. The long-and-short of it is that there is simply no solid, reliable evidence that points conclusively (or even cumulatively) to the guilt of Knox or Sollecito. If I (or most people here) could be shown just one incontrovertible piece of evidence pointing at guilt, I'd have no problem changing my opinion. But no such piece (or pieces) of evidence exists - it's as simple as that.

Thanks for the summary.

I did notice thought that you forgot to include the graphologist evidence though. :)




 
Have you grasped that it also proportionally increases the likelihood that Sollecito did indeed deposit his genetic material there himself during the murder or subsequent staging?

Come on! Please, try to come up with *one* plausibile scenario where Sollecito leaves his DNA on this one tiny metal bra clasp during a violent, filled with blood, murder of Meredith Kercher.

Maybe he's role was to hold the clasp, while Amanda standing just outside the room - as there's no DNA or *any other* traces of her in that room - was telling them what to do.
 
Was he paid for his original interview with the reporter? I thought I read that earlier this year, but I can't locate the source. If so, there is a monetary incentive.-edited

In court he denied the interview (saying they tried to film him over the counter and he asked them to leave) then the defense showed the video, curiously no mention in Massei.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6400259&postcount=8577

Frank did an interview with him and asked if he had been paid, curiously no answer.

Here are some links to translations of what the appeals say about Mr. Memory:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6061923&postcount=2470
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6061940&postcount=2472
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6202366&postcount=4101
 
Last edited:
I think that would be true if there was other tangible evidence linking him to the crime scene. But all we have to connect Sollecito to the crime is a clasp which was found and bagged under questionable circumstances. In a case like this, it's the totality of the evidence that you have to look at.

1) The evidence of an intruder break-in.

2) The truckload of incriminating evidence linking Rudy -- a virtual stranger and burglar -- to the murder.

3) The lack of such evidence linking the other two defendants to the murder.

4) among several other things but I think the above three stand out the most

Considering the above, the DNA on the clasp is either a fluke contamination or a plant by someone associated with the prosecution. The latter seemed unlikely to me until yesterday when Comodi provided apparently false information to the court regarding certain control tests. If she knowingly provided false documentation......

1) Patently faked break-in which benefitted no one except Knox

2) The truckload of unfakable evidence like phone records and their own lies that point straight to K and S

3) The lack of evidence even hinting at anyone else besides Knox and Sollecito as the other 2 who committed this 3-handed murder.

4) ha ha ha

5) ha ha ha ha
 
1) Patently faked break-in which benefitted no one except Knox

Perhaps you can do what the prosecution and Massei didn't, and explain how the scene was faked.

2) The truckload of unfakable evidence like phone records and their own lies that point straight to K and S

What do you find most condeming about the phone records? Any calls to Guede?

What "lie" do you think points to murder?

3) The lack of evidence even hinting at anyone else besides Knox and Sollecito as the other 2 who committed this 3-handed murder.

Care to do what the presecution didn't and prove that there were three people involved?
 
1) Patently faked break-in which benefitted no one except Knox

We've reviewed Massei's argument that the break-in was staged and really, it's terribly weak.

The claim that the window was broken from the inside is totally unsupported, and the expert opinion saying that it was broken from the outside was dismissed arbitrarily. In this case the weight of expert testimony clearly favoured the view that the window was broken from outside and Massei/Christiani ignored this.

The police claimed that there was a suspicious lack of glass shards on the ground outside the window, but this seems likely to be post hoc improvisation seeing as they did absolutely nothing to document this claim at the time and that there is no reason to expect anything other than a fine spray of very tiny, easily-missed fragments anyway.

The claim that there was a clean-up is not only totally unsupported, it's outright contradicted by the available evidence. There is literally no sign of smearing, wiping or bleach use shown up by the luminol tests or any other forensic test.

That's the complete extent of the case for any kind of staging.

2) The truckload of unfakable evidence like phone records and their own lies that point straight to K and S

As I believe I said just a moment ago, what guilters tend to forget is that people make mistakes all the time. They aren't necessarily deliberate lies and they aren't evidence they murdered someone.

Now if Knox and Sollecito lied about something that actually mattered to the case, as opposed to utter trivia like what order they called non-responsive phones in or when they saw poo in a toilet it might be evidence.

The police made all kinds of far more serious misstatements of fact in the course of this case than Knox and Sollecito did. That doesn't mean the police murdered Meredith Kercher.

3) The lack of evidence even hinting at anyone else besides Knox and Sollecito as the other 2 who committed this 3-handed murder.

There is no evidence this was a three-handed murder.

The wounds Meredith suffered are consistent with multiple attackers, and also consistent with a single attacker. Which is a fancy way of saying there's no evidence either way.

The fact that Rudy Guede left handprints and DNA all over the scene of the struggle yet nothing was found to show anyone else was there indicates to me that nobody else was there.
 
1) Patently faked break-in which benefitted no one except Knox

2) The truckload of unfakable evidence like phone records and their own lies that point straight to K and S

3) The lack of evidence even hinting at anyone else besides Knox and Sollecito as the other 2 who committed this 3-handed murder.

4) ha ha ha

5) ha ha ha ha

PhantomWolf already pointed out these few things that I wanted, but I would add some other questions also.

1.Evidence of the "faked" break in? Think twice before answering that one. The glass on top of the clothes is something that everyone from the police talked about, but to date, no one have seen it. Explain the position of the glass being very deep into the room and the position of the rock and dirth under , that suggest it was thrown, not placed.

2. Not only there was no phone records between Guede, Amanda and Raffaele, but also there was no phone records suggesting Amanda's and Raffaele guilt in any way.

3. As far as I can remember, the prosecution's experts could not rule out that one person attacked and killed Meredith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom