Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[tmd2_1]

Your synopsis is a bit lacking. What other place was he supposedly at if not the Pentagon.

Edited to add: And if there is a discrepancy about where this one individual was, how does that trump all of the other evidence (passenger DNA, FDR, CVR, etc.) that shows that the plane crashed into the Pentagon? In other words, why should I care about this guy?

I didn't say a plane didn't crash into the pentagon. Simply saying this guy along with many other reasons I have questions. Actually all you have to do is read the message board that I linked to...it sums it all up

 

[tmd2_1]

You're lying again. Your own link says that it landed NEAR his car.

Liar.

Thanks for pointing that out...I was only going by memory. I know this makes a huge difference to the whole story. It's nice to hear that the most important thing to you about all of this is I said In the car as opposed to near the car.

 

[tmd2_1]

He wasn't indicted for the events of 9/11, correct. However, to get an indictment, you need alot of evidence. My guess is that they didn't want to release alot of the information because it was a matter of national security.

Once you use that information in an indictment, it's public knowledge.

You're still talking out of your posterior. Many of us here, (Beachnut, myself, DGM, Oys, Mr. Skinny just to name a few) are much more knowledgeable about relevant fields.

May I ask your education/profession?

My eduction/profession and even my age are not important, I simply want to discuss the topics at hand. Bin Laden is "dead" why would anything need to remain classified, and why wouldn't they list 9/11 for what he is wanted for. Maybe that was classified as well.

 

[tsig]

*sigh* What lie did I promote about A/C did you see my last post...I said I was wrong and got carried away with saying they were in existence...I should have said something like the articles state they are pretty much in existence. Gives a blue print on how to do it. A lot of circumstantial evidence such as the comptroller having access to the planes. Boeing not commenting citing national security concerns....you do the math.

1+1=whatever I want.

 

[DGM]

Did you even read the website I showed you?

Right here along with many other descriptions of what he did.

Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm, possibly one of the hijackers. Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious. [Washington Post]

Ask the Washington Post for who their experts were and then ask them.

Yes I did. I asked you to show me the radar track data for this "precision flying". You give me some persons opinion. Do you want me to quote other opinions to the contrary? I can even give you a quote from his flight instructor saying "he has no doubt he could do this" (paraphrased). If you show me his nice smooth track, I'll be convinced.

Get it?

 

[tmd2_1]

Yes I did. I asked you to show me the radar track data for this "precision flying". You give me some persons opinion. Do you want me to quote other opinions to the contrary? I can even give you a quote from his flight instructor saying "he has no doubt he could do this" (paraphrased). If you show me his nice smooth track, I'll be convinced.

Get it?

I can add no more to what I already wrote. I'll trust that the Washington Post talked to Aviation sources and they said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill. Have a problem...talk to them.

 

[bill smith]

He wasn't indicted for the events of 9/11, correct. However, to get an indictment, you need alot of evidence. My guess is that they didn't want to release alot of the information because it was a matter of national security.

Once you use that information in an indictment, it's public knowledge.

You're still talking out of your posterior. Many of us here, (Beachnut, myself, DGM, Oys, Mr. Skinny just to name a few) are much more knowledgeable about relevant fields.

May I ask your education/profession?

On the other hand Tri, the Sovereign state of Afghanisten could now take the United States of America to the international Criminal court in the Hague citing a motiveless and massively destructive attack with thousands of deaths of innocent Afghanis. They could probably sue for a Trillion dollars and easily win the case. Your only given reason for the attack (a declaration of war) was that Aghanisten refused to give over Bin Laden.. It can easily be shown that Bush refused perfectly reasonable and normal Afghani requests for evidence of bin laden's involvement first and that they subsequently offered to send bin laden to a third country for trial..all of which Bush refused before launching the attack.

We now know why Bush provided no evidence.....he didn't have any.

Guilty as charged.

One Trillion dollars please to be paid immediately.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

I didn't say a plane didn't crash into the pentagon. Simply saying this guy along with many other reasons I have questions. Actually all you have to do is read the message board that I linked to...it sums it all up

Actually, I did read quite a bit of that message board thread before I came back to ask you why it was important.

I don't understand why you can't simply state what the issue is with this guy *sigh*.

Look, I'm an engineer. I like facts and figures where possible. If not, I'd at least like a well thought out premise to consider. You've provided neither.

Just Asking Question (JAQing off as we like to call it) doesn't advance the debate.

I implore you to either **** or get off the pot. If you can't, I'll disengage from the conversation and let others here beat their heads against the wall.

 

[triforcharity]

Thanks for pointing that out...I was only going by memory. I know this makes a huge difference to the whole story. It's nice to hear that the most important thing to you about all of this is I said In the car as opposed to near the car.

Well, it comes from Aldo the Buffett Slayer, so not much else needed be said.

 

[triforcharity]

My eduction/profession and even my age are not important, I simply want to discuss the topics at hand.

Gotcha. So, the answer is none? That's fine. I was mearly curious. Don't get your panties in a wad.

Bin Laden is "dead" why would anything need to remain classified,

He is in fact dead. No scare quotes necessary.

I am sure there is some information WRT bin Laden's operations, that will be classified for many years.

Why would the grocery bill of a submarine be classified?

and why wouldn't they list 9/11 for what he is wanted for. Maybe that was classified as well.

Because that would be lying. He wasn't officially wanted wrt 9/11. He was not indicted for it. He WAS however under indictment for the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, and IIRC, also for the bombing of the USS Cole.

Lying is wrong.

 

[000063]

When bin laden was in the FBI's most wanted list..he wasn't listed for 9/11 I mean give me a break.

So, simple incredulity? That's your evidence?

They would be forgeries..because it wasn't really him on the tapes.

Affirming the consequent. "It wasn't him, so he wasn't on the tapes, because it wasn't him!"

If you can look at that one link that spells out how to do it, and not think it could be done, I don't know what to tell you. I apologized for coming on to strong about about the planes being in existence. What didn't I answer directly?

I don't think it could be done. You have a link from a website saying remote-controlled devices can be used to control some planes, which, since it says nothing about 767s, is like saying because I could beat an asthmatic 6-year old girl in a fist fight, I could beat a Force Recon Marine. Meanwhile, people who actually know what they're talking about have told you over and over that an RC 767 is impossible without extensive physical modification. Even that link you keep posting describes the devices as fairly large, not something likely to be missed by a single aircrew, much less four, even if the bad guys did manage to covertly sneak it onto the airfield and install it. Plus, of course, the cameras and instrument feedback devices needed to fly the plane.

You never answered which story was more likely. The official story, or the "Moassad" hypothetical Noah posted. If you answer with anything other than "yes", "no", or "I don't know", you are an intellectually dishonest sophist.

I would like to point out that your purported version of the OS differs from it on several key points, starting with the "guy in a cave" strawman. I would also like to point out that for someone who says there are lots of possible alternative theories, you are remarkably reluctant to say whether this one is or isn't more plausible than the official story.

 

[000063]

He wasn't indicted for the events of 9/11, correct. However, to get an indictment, you need alot of evidence. My guess is that they didn't want to release alot of the information because it was a matter of national security.

Once you use that information in an indictment, it's public knowledge.

Correct. That's exactly the reason given.

 

[tmd2_1]

Actually, I did read quite a bit of that message board thread before I came back to ask you why it was important.

I don't understand why you can't simply state what the issue is with this guy *sigh*.

Look, I'm an engineer. I like facts and figures where possible. If not, I'd at least like a well thought out premise to consider. You've provided neither.

Just Asking Question (JAQing off as we like to call it) doesn't advance the debate.

I implore you to either **** or get off the pot. If you can't, I'll disengage from the conversation and let others here beat their heads against the wall.

Unbelievable just unbelievable... a guy has a piece of evidence from the biggest crime scene in history and is walking around with it...like he's walking in the park. If that isn't bad enough..he's shown to be at another place at the time the plane hit the pentagon...and that is not important. Wow just Wow

 

[Mr. Skinny]

Unbelievable just unbelievable... a guy has a piece of evidence from the biggest crime scene in history and is walking around with it...like he's walking in the park. If that isn't bad enough..he's shown to be at another place at the time the plane hit the pentagon...and that is not important. Wow just Wow

Criminy, I have asked you at least twice what other place he was at and why this is suspicious.

Why can't you answer the question?

ETA: Hilited it for you!

 

[tmd2_1]

So, simple incredulity? That's your evidence?

Affirming the consequent. "It wasn't him, so he wasn't on the tapes, because it wasn't him!"

I don't think it could be done. You have a link from a website saying remote-controlled devices can be used to control some planes, which, since it says nothing about 767s, is like saying because I could beat an asthmatic 6-year old girl in a fist fight, I could beat a Force Recon Marine. Meanwhile, people who actually know what they're talking about have told you over and over that an RC 767 is impossible without extensive physical modification. Even that link you keep posting describes the devices as fairly large, not something likely to be missed by a single aircrew, much less four, even if the bad guys did manage to covertly sneak it onto the airfield and install it. Plus, of course, the cameras and instrument feedback devices needed to fly the plane.

You never answered which story was more likely. The official story, or the "Moassad" hypothetical Noah posted. If you answer with anything other than "yes", "no", or "I don't know", you are an intellectually dishonest sophist.

I would like to point out that your purported version of the OS differs from it on several key points, starting with the "guy in a cave" strawman. I would also like to point out that for someone who says there are lots of possible alternative theories, you are remarkably reluctant to say whether this one is or isn't more plausible than the official story.

Read post #5 of this thread...that is what I think is most likely. Answers most of your questions. It wasn't him is an implication that is given as to why the FBI gave the statement they didn't have any hard evidence against him. A confession tape I think would be hard evidence.

 

[000063]

My eduction/profession and even my age are not important, I simply want to discuss the topics at hand. Bin Laden is "dead" why would anything need to remain classified,

Because he had a large, powerful terrorist organization (which has accepted his death, BTW) that they are currently conducting operations against and don't want to tip off, would be my guess.

and why wouldn't they list 9/11 for what he is wanted for.

Because you can't indict people on classified material without making it unclassified, and he was already wanted for a previous bombing. This was explained. In the post you're responding to.

Maybe that was classified as well.

What do you mean "maybe"? I've told you precisely that twice already! National security concerns! Indictment! asdfg;rweoh

 

[tmd2_1]

Criminy, I have asked you at least twice what other place he was at and why this is suspicious.

Why can't you answer the question?

ETA: Hilited it for you!

Look he said he was driving his car in front of the pentagon. When the plane hit that is. He said he was there for 15-20 minutes or something like that. That picture according to the photographer was taken about 5 minutes after the crash and at the Navy Annex. Making it impossible for him to be where he said he was, during the interview in the studio. I said all of this already.

 

[000063]

You never answered which story was more likely. The official story, or the "Moassad" hypothetical Noah posted. If you answer with anything other than "yes", "no", or "I don't know", you are an intellectually dishonest sophist.

Read post #5 of this thread...that is what I think is most likely. Answers most of your questions. It wasn't him is an implication that is given as to why the FBI gave the statement they didn't have any hard evidence against him. A confession tape I think would be hard evidence.

You are an intellectually dishonest sophist.

 

[000063]

Look he said he was driving his car in front of the pentagon. When the plane hit that is. He said he was there for 15-20 minutes or something like that. That picture according to the photographer was taken about 5 minutes after the crash and at the Navy Annex. Making it impossible for him to be where he said he was, during the interview in the studio. I said all of this already.

Where was he, exactly? I plugged it into Google Maps, and there are a lot of roads he could've been on "in front of the Pentagon".

 

[Oystein]

*sigh* the articles all but spelled out how to do it. Pretty much said they were in existence...I am sorry that is how I should have phrased it before. Thank you for pointing that out to me (truly no sarcasm) You have Boeing saying they can't comment because of national security concern. You do the math.

Again I do apologize for coming on too strong about that they were in existence...you are right there's not 100% proof they were in existence...but when you put it all together...it still doesn't look good.

Oh that dishonest sophism

There is 100% proof that no commercial Boeing 757 and 767 exist that can be remotely controlled.
Four planes, two 757 and two 767, operated by American Airlines and United Airlines, took off from Boston, Newark and Dulles.
Zero planes arrived at their planned destinations.

What happened?

I / every sane person says: They were hijacked, piloted and crashed by terrorists.
You seem to say: They were remotely controlled and then ... not sure what then. Crashed? Landed elsewhere and swapped? Whatever.

You are wrong, because zero 757/767 commercial aircraft operated by commercial airlines can be equipped with remote control unless you have hundreds or thousands of people in the know: Developers, constructors, testers, installers, maintenance crews, flight crews, airline management, air traffic controllers or those who manipulated the ATC radio talk, etc.

Ridiculous, stupid idea. You can't believe a very some very simple, easy plot, so you invent a huge and complex one. What a dumb move!