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Why not war against Islam?

Toontown said:
Yeah! that's it. That's why any thread aimed at Islam always gets swarmed over by Christian-bashers and Amerika-bashers. It's because it is very important to pull the beam out of the Christians' eyes, because they're the ones who are so damn stubborn when you try to tell them how messed up their religion is that they won't listen to anything you say or even look at the offending verses.

But Muslims would listen. They would listen very intently to your criticisms of their religion with great interest. Especially if you were in a Muslim country. You could easily attract a whole crowd of very interested listeners.
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i think often it is because it goes into the direction of all moslems are alike, or that is their real goal etc etc. while this is in no way seen in reality. and it often are christians that doe such things.
and often it is believers in a diverse interpreted old book that know exactly how it is only one interpretation for other people diverse interpreted book.
And this just yells into my face, pls point out my hypocricy.

yes it is annoying because it often destroys a legitim debate about Islam without looking at christianity or judaism.

but when someone would claim all Christians are alike and want to reimplement witch burnings on sunday afternoons on the local marketplace.
and they are already doing it in Africa.

how many would point out my blatant lie about all or most christians wanting that. and how many would talk about my legit point about african witch burnings by christians?
 
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Toontown said:
The call for jihad is the centerpiece of the religion. If the majority of Muslims disagree, then why do they even bother with the ancient benighted belief system? Are they afraid their Muslim brothers will murder them if they renounce Islam?
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I think that Islam, like all religious beliefs, is very silly.

However, I can't let your statement go unchallenged.

'Jihad' is at the heart of islam, but it doesn't mean 'go to war against other people' to most muslims - it means doing battle against some things within one's self, such as fear, hatred, disloyalty, jealousy, and the like.

'Jihad' in this sense is something that every person would benefit from.
 
Well, it's hard to go to war against Islam when there's really no entity to go to war against. It's like Kissinger said, "whom do I speak with if I need to talk to Western Civilization". The object of war, if we believe Clauswitz (and I do and so should you ) is to apply elements of your national power against enemy centers of gravity in an attempt to bend the hostile nation to your will. Who is it we're going to bend to our will? No one controls all of Islam so no one can order their combatants to cease fighting. You could have a war on a group like Al Qaida but that's not the same as war on all of Islam.

Are we going to just wipe out all of Islam and put the survivors in camps? How many Muslims are there in the world? Which countries would have the stomach or flawed moral compass to do that? Which countries would even have the capability?
 
Mohammed established a theocratic empire, took slaves and had sex with kids. Jesus is a mystical character who didn't kill anyone, go to war with anyone, or build any state.

Christianity is morally superior to Islam.
 
Virus said:
Mohammed established a theocratic empire, took slaves and had sex with kids. Jesus is a mystical character who didn't kill anyone, go to war with anyone, or build any state.

Christianity is morally superior to Islam.
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Great. Tell them all that and see how far you get.
 
Toontown said:
Yeah! that's it. That's why any thread aimed at Islam always gets swarmed over by Christian-bashers and Amerika-bashers. It's because it is very important to pull the beam out of the Christians' eyes, because they're the ones who are so damn stubborn when you try to tell them how messed up their religion is that they won't listen to anything you say or even look at the offending verses.

But Muslims would listen. They would listen very intently to your criticisms of their religion with great interest. Especially if you were in a Muslim country. You could easily attract a whole crowd of very interested listeners.
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Fundamentalist Moslims are evil morons....they will not listen.

But that is a trait of fundamentalism altogether whether it is moslim or christian or jewish or whatever.

When I argue against a chrisitian fundamentalist maligning islam I am actually in FULL agreement with him about how EVIL and STUPID and RETARDED Islam is..... I am not arguing that Islam is not all that. What I am arguing with him is that before he has the right to call other religions moronic he should examine his first....acknowledge that it is moronic too...then start arguing that others are or not.

But if a fundamentalist is arguing against other religions no matter how moronic they are, he is only doing it out of BENIGHTED PREJUDICE and IGNORANCE so as a skeptic I truly think that it is my duty whenever I see such HATE MONGERING to try and counteract it with some POINTING OUT of the panes in his glass house.

We also must remember that before they were hating Islam they did the same to Judaism…..but now they can’t do it since Christianity has become Judeo-Christianity which I am sure would make every fundamentalist Jew CRINGE with tears of pain every time he hears it. But as hate has to be directed outwards or else it would rot one’s innards, they now have a RENEWED outlet with a new EXPIATORY GOAT. I am surprised they have not yet come out with that they eat children too….. I guess labeling Jews with that was easier when there was no internet.

Notice how when a skeptic criticizes a religion its adherents are quick to be offended and start labeling us as “bashers”. Pointing out failings in ANYTHING does not make one a “bashers”…..we are only pointing out FACTS……read history….. labeling a person who points out unpalatable facts of history a “basher” is not very different from what fundamentalists do when we point out unpalatable facts about theirs gods.

America is actually intertwined in many subtle and undeniable ways with the rise of moslim fundamentalism ….. the problem with Islamic fundamentalism gaining power and popularity among the non-fundamentalists is due to American support for Despotic rulers (and paradoxically the fundamentalists) throughout the region. So in fact the problem is NOT PURELY a religious one. It is very much a POLITICAL and Economic one too. So it is not as clear cut as Christian fundamentalists would like to make it appear to be.

All you have to do is study the HISTORY of the region….not back to middle ages….rather back to WWI and forward…… numerous problems in the world are aftermaths of the two World Wars.

Just keep in mind one word while you do so….. the word is DISENFRANCHISED.

Here is an interesting debate between Chris Hedges and Sam Harris that should shed a very bright light on the debate in this thread. (The link is to part 2 or 2)
 
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Virus said:
Mohammed established a theocratic empire, took slaves and had sex with kids. Jesus is a mystical character who didn't kill anyone, go to war with anyone, or build any state.

Christianity is morally superior to Islam.
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yeah but then there is this dady of Jesus, a cruel mosnter just like in the Koran.
Christianity is as supoerior to Islam as Cancer is superior to Aids.
 
Virus said:
...Christianity is morally superior to Islam.
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The direct descendants of Christians and individuals raised in the Christian faith, are responsible for 50 million or more deaths during the last century.

Under the right social & economic conditions, Christians, Jews and Muslims are capable of the exact same quantity & quality of brutal conquest and war-crimes.
 
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So, does anyone want to talk about what Muslims (in their many splintered and often-opposing sects and subsects and sub-subsects) actually believe, or are y'all good with copypasta lists of heavily edited Qur'an quotes and talking about how much Mohammed liked little girls and how many Canaanites God killed and how the Crusades are why we're fighting the War on Terror?

Oh, and USEagle13, briefly:

They're called the Meccan and Medinan suras or verses. And no, they're not distinguished by being "peaceful" and "warlike". They're distinguished by being "revealed when Muslims were a persecuted minority in Mecca" and "revealed when Muslims were a large political and military force based in the city of Medina, and needed rules for both fighting the war with the Quraysh and for governing an ever-growing empire". [EDIT: And one doesn't replace the other. The notion of naskh, or abrogation, is contentious even among Muslims themselves, with little disagreement on which verses have been abrogated, or even if naskh is a valid concept in the first place. There are also a number of tafsir that rely on verses of the Qur'an all interconnecting, explaining and supporting each other, so that the division into Meccan and Medinan suras is a historical division only, and does not affect their contextual interpretation.]

Abu Sufyan ibn Harb converted to Islam and surrendered Mecca to Muhammad without a fight (well, almost...there was resistance in the southern section of the city, resulting in the Medinan forces losing two soldiers while killing between 13 and 28, before the fighting stopped). After the Muslim army fully occupied the city, Muhammad declared an amnesty for the entire Banu Quraysh except for seventeen individuals, and he later pardoned all but four of those.

The "Muslim rosary", misbaha or tasbih, was unlikely to have been imitated directly from the Catholic Rosary. Traditionally, the Catholic Rosary was supposedly given to St. Dominic by the Virgin Mary in 1214, though the use of pebbles, stones, and/or knotted strings to help count prayers were common in the early days of Christianity, while the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, was supposed to have and used a misbaha. Considering both Buddhism and Hinduism also use prayer beads, it's likely they all developed prayer beads concurrently based on similar sources because of a similar need to help with prayer counting. No one really knows, with various scholars tracing the origin of the misbah as everything from the Prophet's daughter Fatimah gathering stones for prayer counting to inheritance from the Byzantine Church to inheritance from India to it being developed by Sufi saints and eventually taken back by the Crusaders to Europe where it became the Catholic Rosary!

Any questions?
 
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ANTPogo said:
So, does anyone want to talk about what Muslims (in their many splintered and often-opposing sects and subsects and sub-subsects) actually believe, or are y'all good with copypasta lists of heavily edited Qur'an quotes and talking about how much Mohammed liked little girls and how many Canaanites God killed and how the Crusades are why we're fighting the War on Terror?...
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The fact that the author of the original post admits that much if not all of his communication with Muslims was on a radical & extremist Muslim website, says a great deal about his understanding of Islam and more than one billion Muslims. If one truly wishes to understand the highly diverse views among the Muslims of the Earth one does not go to a Muslim-extremist forum to accomplish this.

It would be like basing all of one's understanding of Judaism & Jews from the Jewish Defense League or the Zionist Organization of America.
 
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so mean, everytime someone is quotemining the Koran ANTpogo goes all factual on them. :D
 
There's plenty to criticize Islam for (especially the further along the fundamentalist radical spectrum you go). But can you guys at least get the stuff you're criticizing right?
 
Virus said:
Mohammed established a theocratic empire, took slaves and had sex with kids. Jesus is a mystical character who didn't kill anyone, go to war with anyone, or build any state.

Christianity is morally superior to Islam.
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Now here we go AGAIN.....

You are right.... mohammad is all you said..... but how can you arrive at the conclusion that christianity is morally superior to islam based on the morality of mohammad and the non-existent Jesus? Should you not compare christianity to islam depending on the morality of the religion not on comparing an unreal myth with a real flesh and blood man. Of course a man is immoral because he did things. But a myth cannot be anything at all…neither moral nor immoral since he cannot do or not do anything….he is a myth (according to you).

But you are right Islam is heinously immoral…..so is Christianity equally abhorrent.

Have you heard of the Holy Catholic Empire? Have you heard of Las Conquistas (conquests of Americas)? Have you heard of priests/clergy having sex with kids in Churches? Did you hear of the Emancipation Proclamation and how many clergy in the American South defended slavery with biblical verses which I am not even going to bother to list here?

You are right that Jesus did not exist so he could not do all the stuff you mentioned. But the Holy Catholic Empire, the Holy Byzantine Empire, the Holy Russian Empire all did all the stuff you said as christians in the name of Jesus with the Bible in hand pages turned and marked at the verses that justified every ATROCITY they committed.

Pity there were no video cams to record the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of the Huguenots or the THOUSANDS of people burnt as witches, or the innumerable Jews having Boiling Oil poured down their throats along with the hundreds of thousands of victims of the Inquisitions, or the slaughter of the Jews by the crusaders who sacked Jerusalem, or the 100 year war, or the 30 year war, or the mob lynching of Hypatia in Alexandria or the burning of Giordano Bruno.
 
Christianity specifically advocates the submission of women to men & wives to their husbands. It also calls for Christians to not associate with non-Christians.

And while it is true that the New Testament does no call for the slaughter of non-Christians, the history of Christendom over the last two-thousand years shows that the followers of Christ were quite adept at improvising.

If Jesus son of Joseph returns to Earth someday and learns about the many horrors committed in his name, he would surely crucify himself out of depression & suicidal desires.
 
armageddonman said:
I've had quite a few discussions with Muslims over the last few years and from what what I learned, Islam teaches (among many other things):

1. Muslims need to spread Islam.
2. Islam is spread by "inviting" the kkuffar to join.
3. If they refuse, they need to be conquered through offensive Jihad.
4. After the conquest, "people of the book" will be second-class citizens with very few rights.
5. Prisoners of war and their female relatives can be sold as slaves.

Now, I know that the vast majority of the Muslims have no abitions to actually go on such a Jihad and the idea that "The West is at war with Islam" is silly but for the sake of the argument, why would anyone who adheres to an ideology which in itself is a declaration of war against anyone who doesn't adhere to it be surprised if those people took the war to Muslim lands pre-emptively?

Not really expecting an answer from anyone but it's a question no Muslim I've talked to has ever been able to give a rational answer to.
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Why not?

There is a rational answer. It has nothing to do with any religion, or lack there of.

To put it simply, a 'war against Muslims' based on your line of reasoning would be waged to wipe out a group of people because they think differently from you. This is no more acceptable when we do it than when they do it.

If a person or persons wants to adhere to an ideology that could potentially lead them to violence, that is their right. It is only when they take action towards committing violence against others that action against them can be justified.

I hope that makes sense.

Regards, Canis
 
DC said:
:eek: so you have no problem with a war against a whole religion?
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What do you mean?!?!?!?!?!?!

It is kind of like me asking:

:eek: so you eat snicker bars with rocky road ice cream?

  • I never thought of it
  • I don't know where your question comes from
  • It is kind of a stupid question. How does one go to war with an idea?
 
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