Why not war against Islam?

[Resume]

Those times were way different than today. You cannot compare something that happened 2,000 or 3,000 yrs ago to the way ppl live today. So you condone burning little kids while they are alive to make it rain? (answer my question)

So are you saying the morality displayed in the ot is . . . relative to the times?

 

[tsig]

The OP wasn't about Christianity so you might want to quit bashing on about it.

It's the true colors of Christophobia showing through. That is what repeated indoctination and brainwashing of mainstream Aethiesm does to the mind of the weak individual who cannot implement it properly.

They lose sense of time and because most do not know anything about cultural anthropolgy; they do not know anything about the civilizations of the past Middle East area.

they act as if the Hitites and Caananites and all the other past warring Natufian style civilzations were some kind of peaceful civilizations that were warred against without cause. Those civilizations were some of the worst highly aggressive take no prisoner style civilizations that ever lived. They fought with everyone.

They drop all skeptical thinking and turn into bigots from a different spectrum and in effect just lower themselves to the bigots of the opposite spectrum. basically, it makes them no better.

Riigght.

 

[Complexity]

I'm not sure if I follow you, but isn't this SOP for all old world religions?

Certainly both christianity and islam.

 

[Complexity]

I think we all agree that if a so-called holy text advocates violence or other bad behavior, then this is bad, but all by itself, no cause for concern.

I don't agree. I think it is a cause for concern. The number of people who take that text seriously doesn't have to be large before it can become a huge issue (e.g. recent Norway killings).

 

[Complexity]

The OP wasn't about Christianity so you might want to quit bashing on about it.

However, the OP did focus on the ways in which islam leads people to behave badly, and it did raise in my mind the suggestion that islam is worse in this regard than other religions, as well as the suspicion that the OP writer may be coming at this from a christian position. Having done so, I think it is quite fair to address the perceived imbalanced assertion in the OP by pointing out that other religions, especially christianity, have similar beliefs and behaviors.

 

[USEagle13]

How are they different from us?

Moloch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch

Hittites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitites#Religion_and_mythology

Caananites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanites#Biblical_Canaanites

Phoenicia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians

Etc.

Even Americans from 100yrs ago are very different than the Americans from today.

All cultures have one thing in common. That is war. It's up to us people of this generation to stop war and death or the end result will not be good for anyone.

 

[USEagle13]

How long have you studied the Koran?

I never studied it. I just read it before and was oh my goodness it says for them to kill everyone.

I did not even know what the heck Islam really was b4 911 like most Americans. Now the whole frikin world knows "about it" but not exactly what is says in the Koran.

It's really not hard to do. Just look at its straight forward mantras of death and be dumbfounded.

Of course some of it has peaceful parts but not as much peaceful doctrine as the Bible I assure you.

Yes the old testament has alot of bad stuff in it but it is a record of what happened. Like a history book of that region and beggining of mankind.

But the latter part of the Koran is "telling the reader what to do to unbelievers."

They also have Taqiyya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Basically they can "lie" about their faith and "act" like they are not a Muslim. That really complicates things. I also believe that is why some had to be waterboarded because in their religion; lying is a weapon.

And trust me our counter terrorism ppl know this and most likely know the Koran just as good as most Muslims do.

There is even passages in the Koran that talk about using lying as a weapon to decieve the enemy.

It's all out there. You don't even need a friggin Koran these days just look the crap up on the net. It's all in most everyone's face but they refuse to see it and know only the Bible so that's all most can comment on.

And if you look at the map of countries we have been fighting in....everyone has been a Muslim country since Kuwait. So yeah, I dunno what the OP is talking about "Why not war with Islam?" because The West has been at war with Islamic fanatics for over 10yrs.

There is no such thing as Christian country but there are plenty of Islam countries, and the Islamic countries are some of the most intolerant that there is.

I don't want war with anyone just like most Westerners but we all have to live with the decisions our leaders make whether we like it or not.

USA was attacked 1st by Muslim extremists so whatever happens happens. it by no means is any Christians fault that we are in this mess for sure.

Yeah that Oslo guy was a whacktard. He seriously took Bible passages and twisted into his own creation of Crusader garbage and all that Knight's Templar bullcorn is; is the Revival of The Holy Roman Empire crap which is nothing more than the kingdom of the antichrist.

He is super evil guy.

 

[Buckaroo]

I'm not a fan of religion, but I think a trap many critics fall into is reading religions, their documents, rituals and proclamations as though they were legal documents or software manuals.

I highly recommend that everyone, everywhere read the chapters of Godel Escher Bach that deal with record players.

Imagine a jukebox, that instead of having one record player and several records, works the opposite way, one record and multiple record players, each constructed to contort the data of the record to play a different song (this actually works much better with CDs, but the book was written a while back)

Information comes not just from texts, but from the system used to read those texts. Meaning comes from the interaction of the two. Without a record player of some kind, you can't hear the music. With the wrong record player, you hear the wrong tune. When you read religious texts and utterances with the "record player" of simple instructions, you're doing it wrong.

In the Jewish tradition, before the destruction of the temple, there were two central texts of Judaism, the Torah itself, and the oral tradition, their very formalized "record player", the way the Torah was going to be interpreted. This was then written down and became the Talmud and being a written text from a bygone era, it needs it's own decoding system nowadays.

In the Torah, it commands the stoning of disobedient children, adulterers and more serious stuff like that. These laws are still very much in force today, and if you read them with the "record player" of modern legal writing or even general conversational language, you'd wonder why these Jews today don't bury all their disobedient kids under stones! The reason is that while the torah has been preserved of centuries, the system for decoding it has evolved with society, and so the message you get when you read the torah interpreted through the Talmud and Jewish culture as it has evolved lacks the call for violence.

You can say,
"But look at Deuteronomy 21:21! It says 'All the men of the town must then stone him to death!'"

But that would be almost as silly as looking at the word "Kill" written in Dutch and insisting it must mean the taking of a life rather than a body of water.

When I'm drunk with my buddies and I say "You're a real ugly bastard" we don't have a problem reading that differently than we would take the same phrase screamed during a fight with a significant other. We switch modes easily. If you're watching someone on a stage, you instantly move into a mode where you don't take their words literally, but as a story. We switch record players every day.

Even in our legal system, we have an interpretation that varies. Massachusetts law clearly states that driving above posted speed limits is illegal. Specifically, exceeding a posted limit is considered evidence of unsafe driving. Police are charged with protecting public safety and enforcing the law. Yet on I-95 when there isn't traffic, the vast majority of cars travel at least 5mph above the limit, right along with and past police officers. Our "record player" for reading the law gives us a different outcome than a strict reading of the law text would suggest. That's why we have a supreme court and the concept of precedence- because the language of the law is incomplete until it is decoded by the most current version of the decoder, the newest legal record player.

But since the way religious text is decoded in real practice is both so all pervasive to the religious and so alien to those who don't practice, and since the texts are so massive and most people aren't academic at all, the decoding is neither obvious nor easy to approach from the outside.

At the end of the day, a religion is the practices of it's adherents, even if that differs wildly from a literal reading of the texts.

Posts like this one are the reason I dig this forum.

 

[dirtywick]

Where did you hear there's an old and new testament in the Koran?

Anyway, any good Muslim will tell you that you haven't read the Koran unless you've read it in classical Arabic.

 

[I Am The Scum]

911

Yeah, I've heard about it. What's your point? That was less than 20 guys. The vast majority if Muslims (especially Muslims in the west) do not support terrorism or violence against non-believers. If there is an argument to be made that we can judge an individual based on the so-called holy text he follows, then this one is extremely weak. Can you do better?

I don't agree. I think it is a cause for concern. The number of people who take that text seriously doesn't have to be large before it can become a huge issue (e.g. recent Norway killings).

Fair point. Maybe it would be better to say that violent fringe beliefs are not practical concerns. There is a tough debate to be had on the proper way to handle such issues, and going to "war against" them is rarely a good idea. This just legitimizes their views, because now they are the ones being attacked.

 

[DC]

I never studied it. I just read it before and was oh my goodness it says for them to kill everyone.

I did not even know what the heck Islam really was b4 911 like most Americans. Now the whole frikin world knows "about it" but not exactly what is says in the Koran.

It's really not hard to do. Just look at its straight forward mantras of death and be dumbfounded.

Of course some of it has peaceful parts but not as much peaceful doctrine as the Bible I assure you.

Yes the old testament has alot of bad stuff in it but it is a record of what happened. Like a history book of that region and beggining of mankind.

But the latter part of the Koran is "telling the reader what to do to unbelievers."

They also have Taqiyya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya

Basically they can "lie" about their faith and "act" like they are not a Muslim. That really complicates things. I also believe that is why some had to be waterboarded because in their religion; lying is a weapon.

And trust me our counter terrorism ppl know this and most likely know the Koran just as good as most Muslims do.

There is even passages in the Koran that talk about using lying as a weapon to decieve the enemy.

It's all out there. You don't even need a friggin Koran these days just look the crap up on the net. It's all in most everyone's face but they refuse to see it and know only the Bible so that's all most can comment on.

And if you look at the map of countries we have been fighting in....everyone has been a Muslim country since Kuwait. So yeah, I dunno what the OP is talking about "Why not war with Islam?" because The West has been at war with Islamic fanatics for over 10yrs.

There is no such thing as Christian country but there are plenty of Islam countries, and the Islamic countries are some of the most intolerant that there is.

I don't want war with anyone just like most Westerners but we all have to live with the decisions our leaders make whether we like it or not.

USA was attacked 1st by Muslim extremists so whatever happens happens. it by no means is any Christians fault that we are in this mess for sure.

Yeah that Oslo guy was a whacktard. He seriously took Bible passages and twisted into his own creation of Crusader garbage and all that Knight's Templar bullcorn is; is the Revival of The Holy Roman Empire crap which is nothing more than the kingdom of the antichrist.

He is super evil guy.

i was told Taqiyya is to protect the believer, so in case he is opressed and has to fear for his live or belongings he is allowed to lie about his religion.
when they have to fear for their life there are many things he is allowed to do, like eating pigs.
sounds rather usefull. But surely can be abused and terrorists surely do use it, but im pretty sure they would also lie about their religion or intentions when there was no Taqiyya rule that alows them to lie.

But i dont think Moslems in general are using Taqiyya to hide some sinister plan to take over the world.

well who knows, maybe i was lied about by moslems using Taqiyya ?

but the cool thing about the counter terrorism ppl is, they mostly know to differ between moslems.

 

[Toontown]

And here we go off into far left Amerika-bashing again. Happens every time Islam is criticized. Every stinking time. Like clockwork.

Yes.... but who trained, funded, assisted and ARMED those groups in the first place? Remember Iran Contra.... Remember Jihadists in 1981 Afghanistan.

OK, you got us. Yeah, it was the U.S. that gave them the stingers that ran the Soviets out. Guilty as charged. We are so deeply ashamed that we didn't let the Soviets expand into Iran and Afghanistan. So deeply ashamed.

Dang us. They oughtta take a rope and hang us for not letting the Soviets have Iran, Germany, Western Europe, Afghanistan, South America, and whatever else their black little hearts desired.

Nah, not really. Screw em. I wouldn't give a freaking Soviet the sweat off my ass if he was dying of thirst. Let them suck the sweat off a donkey's ass.

When the morons were killing Russians and Liberal Afghanis (they allowed women in parliament and to walk around in pants) we were arming them and training them and sent Osama to fund them.

"Liberal Afghanis"? You mean commies, don't you?

Who do you think you're kidding? The Soviets had been trying to worm their way into the ME oil fields for decades. First their Arab allies failed to murder the Israel baby in it's crib. Then they failed to seize Iran. Then their Arab allies failed to kill Israel again. Then they failed in Afghanistan. Then they collapsed like a drama queen having a nervous breakdown.

Need a hankie?

Now we call them Dangerous Islamists.....but who ENABLED them? If we let the Russians crush them we won't have had 911.

The Soviets were orders of magnitude more dangerous. The first order of business was to get rid of the freaking Soviets. Now we've got some other ignorant sluts to get rid of. OK, so some of the currently dead or geriatric ones were fighting the Soviets 30 years ago. They were bound to be fighting someone. Have they ever done anything else? So cry me a river of crocodile tears, play a blame game, spew some propaganda, whatever. Anything to cloud the issue.

 

[Mark6]

but for the sake of the argument, why would anyone who adheres to an ideology which in itself is a declaration of war against anyone who doesn't adhere to it be surprised if those people took the war to Muslim lands pre-emptively?

You are asking why the rather small minority of Mulsims who take the call for war against infidels literally, be surprised that infidels attack them?

AFAIK, such Muslims are not surprised by infidels attacking them. If anything, they expect it -- and when attacks happen, it confirms what they expected.

 

[Complexity]

YeahFair point. Maybe it would be better to say that violent fringe beliefs are not practical concerns. There is a tough debate to be had on the proper way to handle such issues, and going to "war against" them is rarely a good idea. This just legitimizes their views, because now they are the ones being attacked.

I'd say they are of practical concern, as well. The issue is what to do about them, not that they cause concern.

I think there are ways (including education) of undermining them without violence.

 

[Leumas]

Cultural and mental SLAVERY

It's the true colors of Christophobia showing through. That is what repeated indoctination and brainwashing of mainstream Aethiesm does to the mind of the weak individual who cannot implement it properly.

They lose sense of time and because most do not know anything about cultural anthropolgy; they do not know anything about the civilizations of the past Middle East area. they act as if the Hitites and Caananites and all the other past warring Natufian style civilzations were some kind of peaceful civilizations that were warred against without cause. Those civilizations were some of the worst highly aggressive take no prisoner style civilizations that ever lived. They fought with everyone.

And how do you know this???? From the bible or Christian "history"?
Did you know that the Jews were in fact CANAANITES..... this is what Archaeology has shown time and again.

Read 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles and see how REPEATEDLY and ENDLESSLY YHWH had to keep KILLING the Jews because they just could not stop loving Baal and Molek and Astarte etc.

Even Solomon the "wisest man ever" married women from different races and religions against YHWH’s commands and erected temples and altars to the beloved and hard to give up Baal and even other gods from his numerous wives’ countries.

The Jews eventually gave up the worship of all the traditional Canaanite Pantheon (around about 450 BCE) after they WERE FORCED
- mythologically… by YHWH killing them on a regular basis
- factually….. by the PRIESTS (who have just returned from decades of living in Persia) destroying and prohibiting worship except in the Temple in Jerusalem.


Furthermore, (assuming the Israelites were not Canaanites) how were the Canaanites, etc. any different from

Vikings, Celts, Saxons, Huns, Visigoth, Romans, Greeks, Persians, Chinese, Aztecs, Maya, Incas, Apache, Mohacs, Mongols, Eskimos, Polynesians and so on and so forth.​

Unto none of these did YHWH send Israelites to GENOCIDE them. So why is it just those you mention? Could it be because they were inhabitants of the land that YHWH wanted to give the Israelites (assuming the myth is valid for the sake of the argument) and he did not want to CONTAMINATE the PURITY of the CHOSEN PEOPLE?

So it is not that he cares whether they were “wicked” or not…..it is all a matter of RAPINE and CONQUEST as YHWH himself says in
Deut 20:15

Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations.​

But the land where the CHOSEN PURE people were to CONQUER and live, had to be purified……that is the REASON YHWH gives for GENOCIDING them….not because they were “wicked” since the others were wicked too but “far off”. The inhabitants of the land to be TAKEN OVER must not be allowed to CONTAMINATE the PURE RACE OF YHWH. So he COMMANDS their GENOCIDAL HOLOCAUST and partakes in it HIMSELF …. Heil YHWH!!.
Deut 20:16-18

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely,] the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.​

Of course as far as you are concerned the previously mentioned European races were to be kept for later SAVING by Jesus after some Romans who have been un-wicked-enized kill them and conquer them and enslave them and rape them and FORCE them to become SAVED. The Aztecs etc. of course had to wait for another 1492 years after the descendents of the un-wicked-enized (3rd hand) vanquished do the normal human thing and help vanquish more people for the sake of their vanquishers.

The savedobedient slaves helping to savecapture other slaves.

 

[Toontown]

You are asking why the rather small minority of Mulsims who take the call for war against infidels literally, be surprised that infidels attack them?

The call for jihad is the centerpiece of the religion. If the majority of Muslims disagree, then why do they even bother with the ancient benighted belief system? Are they afraid their Muslim brothers will murder them if they renounce Islam?

AFAIK, such Muslims are not surprised by infidels attacking them. If anything, they expect it -- and when attacks happen, it confirms what they expected.

All unprovoked attacks, of course. Muslims have never, ever done anything to provoke anyone.

 

[DC]

The call for jihad is the centerpiece of the religion. If the majority of Muslims disagree, then why do they even bother with the ancient benighted belief system? Are they afraid their Muslim brothers will murder them if they renounce Islam?



All unprovoked attacks, of course. Muslims have never, ever done anything to provoke anyone.

When it is such a central piece in their religion, how come only a tiny little fraction of the 1.2 billion Moslems followed call ups to Jihad?
someone called up to a jihad against my country and nothing happened here. practically nobody followed it.

and when jews and christins don't stone people for being atheist or gathering sticks on sabbath, why bother at all with those ancient myths?

 

[tsig]

There's a conflation here that needs to be addressed.

I think we all agree that if a so-called holy text advocates violence or other bad behavior, then this is bad, but all by itself, no cause for concern.

It's another matter entirely if there's a sizable population that believes this advocation of violence is something that is meant to be taken literally. The text on paper is not the same as the person who treats it as a way of life, so we shouldn't pretend they are the same.

Now, if someone wants to show that violent Muslims are any realistic concern, by all means, provide evidence.

911

Yeah, I've heard about it. What's your point? That was less than 20 guys. The vast majority if Muslims (especially Muslims in the west) do not support terrorism or violence against non-believers. If there is an argument to be made that we can judge an individual based on the so-called holy text he follows, then this one is extremely weak. Can you do better?

My point was an answer to your statement "Now, if someone wants to show that violent Muslims are any realistic concern, by all means, provide evidence."

911 seems enough reason to consider violent Muslims as a realistic concern.

Have you polled The vast majority of Muslims (especially Muslims in the west) as to their attitude towards violence in support of their faith or do you have some other method to arrive at that conclusion.

BTW my user name is 'tsig' please do not put my words under other names.

 

[dirtywick]

When it is such a central piece in their religion, how come only a tiny little fraction of the 1.2 billion Moslems followed call ups to Jihad?
someone called up to a jihad against my country and nothing happened here. practically nobody followed it.

It's not basically. There is one God and Mohammed was his prophet is probably the most central, and the 5/7 pillars are very important.

However, very few Sunni Muslims believe in a sixth pillar, the jihad.

 

[rustypouch]

What about Deuteronomy 13?

13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.