Why not war against Islam?

[I Am The Scum]

Try here:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f18/

Anyway, as I said, the point I was trying to make was NOT to promote war against Islam but exploring the midset some Muslims seem to have in regards to their perceptions in that regard.

Well there's your problem. Islamic Awakening is a forum full of terrorism apologists. This is like trying to get a balanced view of Christianity by listening to the Klan.

The vast majority of Muslims that I've spoken with (granted, I haven't spoken with a whole lot) have been fairly pleasant people.

 

[Cainkane1]

I've had quite a few discussions with Muslims over the last few years and from what what I learned, Islam teaches (among many other things):

1. Muslims need to spread Islam.
2. Islam is spread by "inviting" the kkuffar to join.
3. If they refuse, they need to be conquered through offensive Jihad.
4. After the conquest, "people of the book" will be second-class citizens with very few rights.
5. Prisoners of war and their female relatives can be sold as slaves.

Now, I know that the vast majority of the Muslims have no abitions to actually go on such a Jihad and the idea that "The West is at war with Islam" is silly but for the sake of the argument, why would anyone who adheres to an ideology which in itself is a declaration of war against anyone who doesn't adhere to it be surprised if those people took the war to Muslim lands pre-emptively?

Not really expecting an answer from anyone but it's a question no Muslim I've talked to has ever been able to give a rational answer to.

We are fighting certain muslim groups but remember in the free world we have freedom of religion. You don't just start shooting at someone because their holy books say something bad. If we did that we would have to go to war against ourselves. The bible is as evil as the Qu'ran any day of the week.

 

[MRC_Hans]

We are fighting certain muslim groups but remember in the free world we have freedom of religion. You don't just start shooting at someone because their holy books say something bad. If we did that we would have to go to war against ourselves.*snip*

Not to mention the fact that we would be doing exactly what we (some of us) accuse them of.

Hans

 

[armageddonman]

I would encourage you to not take the postings of some Muslims on an Islamic forum as being at all representative of the faithful. You can find a subset of any religion to be fanatics.

I never said that was the case. I was actually quite specific about this NOT being the case.

 

[armageddonman]

Guys, never mind. Thanks for the replies but I guess I didn't articulate my point very well.

This wasn't supposed to be a "HURR, ISLAM IS EVIL" thread or "CHRISTIANS DID BAD THINGS, TOO".

 

[DC]

We are fighting certain muslim groups but remember in the free world we have freedom of religion. You don't just start shooting at someone because their holy books say something bad. If we did that we would have to go to war against ourselves. The bible is as evil as the Qu'ran any day of the week.

oh God would be pissed like hell on the Jesus comeback tour. WTF only atheists left over?

 

[Sun Countess]

Basically my argument is: if you're telling me that you are planning to invade my country, enslave the ciutizens, make sex-slaves of the women and discriminate against everyone who doesn't want to follow your ideology, why would you be surprised if :

Can you show us where any of the highlighted portion is happening? When somebody has actual plans to invade, enslave, and discriminate against you/your country, then I think it's fair to defend yourself. If it's just a bunch of people cherry-picking their religious practices to be more civilized, then no, you don't have any reason to view them with more suspicion than others who practice their religions peacefully.

 

[FireGarden]

I've had quite a few discussions with Muslims over the last few years and from what what I learned, Islam teaches (among many other things):

1. Muslims need to spread Islam.
2. Islam is spread by "inviting" the kkuffar to join.
3. If they refuse, they need to be conquered through offensive Jihad.
4. After the conquest, "people of the book" will be second-class citizens with very few rights.
5. Prisoners of war and their female relatives can be sold as slaves.

Now, I know that the vast majority of the Muslims have no abitions to actually go on such a Jihad and the idea that "The West is at war with Islam" is silly but for the sake of the argument, why would anyone who adheres to an ideology which in itself is a declaration of war against anyone who doesn't adhere to it be surprised if those people took the war to Muslim lands pre-emptively?

Not really expecting an answer from anyone but it's a question no Muslim I've talked to has ever been able to give a rational answer to.

Perhaps you could read about the conquest of Spain:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_conquest_of_Hispania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Spain

When considering motivations, you might like to consider (taken from the timeline in link1):
July 19, 711 – Tariq, with 7,000 men, and Julian, count of Ceuta, with 12,000 men, confronted King Roderick, with 25,000 men, by the Barbate (Salado) River on the shore of a lagoon. Roderick's army was utterly routed (see Battle of Guadalete).

Julian being Christian. Note that he had almost twice as many men as Tariq. Exactly what his beef with Roderick was isn't clear -- in fact historians aren't agreed on a few things from the era, including who exactly Julian might have been:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian,_count_of_Ceuta

Also, could you compare how the Muslims treated minorities with how other European leaders treated their minorities. This probably varied over time. You can also read about the Reconquista.

Also, should you conclude that any Muslims leaders didn't follow what you say their religion tells them they must do, then please explain why those leaders are held in such high esteem by Muslims since -- all the way up to today. This could be even better if you can list the different Muslim leaders and the way they behaved (some of them did force conversions) and tell us which, if any, are held in the highest regard as exemplary Muslims.

Some more links:
http://www.jewishhistory.org/golden-age-in-spain/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_Spain

 

[DC]

when we talk about that golden era it suddenly is not so golden anymore when talking about atheists at the time

 

[FireGarden]

Guys, never mind. Thanks for the replies but I guess I didn't articulate my point very well.

This wasn't supposed to be a "HURR, ISLAM IS EVIL" thread or "CHRISTIANS DID BAD THINGS, TOO".

Then why not try again?
I do suggest using historical examples -- as many as possible.

 

[FireGarden]

when we talk about that golden era it suddenly is not so golden anymore when talking about atheists at the time

If you mean my post about Spain, don't fixate on the Golden Age stuff. There is a variety of behaviour -- not surprising, because it involves a large number of people.

 

[Leumas]

Budha Help Us!!

Many religions have been spread through conquest but apart from Islam I don't know any religion which actually actually requires that from it's followers in writing in it's holy book.

Basically my argument is: if you're telling me that you are planning to invade my country, enslave the ciutizens, make sex-slaves of the women and discriminate against everyone who doesn't want to follow your ideology, why would you be surprised if :

1. I view your ideology with suspicion.
2. I take active steps to prevent you from implementing your plan.

Again, I'm not advocating point 2 but there are Muslims who think that "The West" is wagin war against Islam and I'm just wondering why those people think it strange.

So you do not think that the Bible has the VERY SAME commandments to CONQUER….EXTERMINATE…..ENSLAVE……..

The Bible has similar stuff.

I don't think so but that;s rather off topic.

I think you need to read the Bible….Exodus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Kings (I and II) Samuel (I and II)

Here are a few gems

Deuteronomy

{20:4} For the LORD your God [is] he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.


{20:10} When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it.
{20:11} And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
{20:12} And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
{20:13} And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
{20:14} But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
{20:15} Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations. {20:16} But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: {20:17} But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely,] the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded
thee:
{20:18} That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.
{20:19} When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field [is] man’s [life]) to employ [them] in the siege:
{20:20} Only the trees which thou knowest that they [be] not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.
​

Joshua

{1:1} Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, saying,
{1:2} Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel.
{1:3} Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.
{1:4} From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.
{1:5} There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, [so] I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
{1:6} Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shalt thou divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.

{8:1} And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear not, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land:
{8:2} And thou shalt do to Ai and her king as thou didst unto Jericho and her king: only the spoil thereof, and the cattle thereof, shall ye take for a prey unto yourselves: lay thee an ambush for the city behind it.

{11:15} As the LORD commanded Moses his servant, so did Moses command Joshua, and so did Joshua; he left nothing undone of all that the LORD commanded Moses.
{11:16} So Joshua took all that land, the hills, and all the south country, and all the land of Goshen, and the valley, and the plain, and the mountain of Israel, and the valley of the same;
{11:17} [Even] from the mount Halak, that goeth up to Seir, even unto Baal-gad in the valley of Lebanon under mount Hermon: and all their kings he took, and smote them, and slew them.
{11:18} Joshua made war a long time with all those kings.
{11:19} There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all [other] they took in battle.
{11:20} For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, [and] that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

​

Christianity does that, too. It's not exactly a unique thing:

Of course, just like christianity, the amount of people that actually act on it are massively outnumbered by moderates that pick and choose what they wish to live by, depending on local culture, societal constructs and heritage as well as what branch of islam/christianity they follow.

Ah….but not long ago they were acting on it all over the world….e.g. America North, America South, Asia, Africa, Middle East, Europe.

There were HOLY WARS of extirpation, rapine…. Not just against heathens and infidels….but against so called HERETICS because they interpreted the very same bible in a slightly different way…..STUDY HISTORY….. 30 years war, 100 years war, inquisitions, crusades, conquistadores, Ireland, Scotland, Cathars, Huguenots, etc. etc.

Given half a chance they would be at it again…..ala Palin et al at Fox News.

And those Muslims who do not think that Islam should conquer all the world still adhere to an ideology which orders it's followers to do exactly that. So even though they would never wage war themselves, they adhere to an ideology which not only promotes war but in the past has threatened western society numerous times.

And pray tell what is the aim of Christianity? What exactly is the book of Revelation about?

Pray tell what is the Jewish Messiah all about…..not the Christian distortion….the proper Jewish one whose FIRST COMING the Jews are still waiting for?

And those Muslims who do not think that Islam should conquer all the world still adhere to an ideology which orders it's followers to do exactly that. So even though they would never wage war themselves, they adhere to an ideology which not only promotes war but in the past has threatened western society numerous times.

Have you heard Sarah Palin recently….have you heard Fox News recently….. do you know history? How many Christians today are TORMENTING gays by denying them CIVIL RIGHTS….how many Christians in the past have ADVOCATED SLAVERY….how many in the past have stood by while innocent women and men BURNT ON THE STAKE…..

How many Christians

even though they would never wage war themselves, they adhere to an ideology which not only promotes war but in the past has threatened westerndevastated many a society numerous times.

That's the whole point of my original post, not wether we should actually wage war against Islam or not. My aopologies if that wasn't clear enough.

I think your user name tells it all….. ARMAGEDDON…..isn’t that the HOPE and DREAM of all fundamentalist Christians? What is Armageddon…. A love fest?

Or is it the hope for the ANNIHILATION of the WORLD and especially the Jews and the Middle East so as to bring back Jesus? Why can’t Jesus Come back before WARS and DESTRUCTION….why can’t he come back TO PREVENT the wars BEFORE they happen and declare PEACE himself instead of waiting for the DEVIL to unite the world in peace.


If the Bible is anything to go by, and if the past is any guide, and if the rhetoric of the likes of Palin et al are any indication then neither Judaism nor Christianity are any better than Islam…. All three religions are called the Abrahamic religions and thus are all three the most ABHORRENT FRAUD ever perpetrated on humanity.

Abraham was nothing but a cowardly pimp who became rich by pimping his sister/wife TWICE, yet he is the holiest of holies to all three religions…..I think that explains the VITIATION that these three religions have subjected humanity to in the last 2500 years…… Buddha help us!!

 

[I Am The Scum]

There's a conflation here that needs to be addressed.

I think we all agree that if a so-called holy text advocates violence or other bad behavior, then this is bad, but all by itself, no cause for concern.

It's another matter entirely if there's a sizable population that believes this advocation of violence is something that is meant to be taken literally. The text on paper is not the same as the person who treats it as a way of life, so we shouldn't pretend they are the same.

Now, if someone wants to show that violent Muslims are any realistic concern, by all means, provide evidence.

 

[Toontown]

Guys, never mind. Thanks for the replies but I guess I didn't articulate my point very well.

This wasn't supposed to be a "HURR, ISLAM IS EVIL" thread or "CHRISTIANS DID BAD THINGS, TOO".

See what happens when you try to criticize Muslims around here? Yeah, that's right. Muslim apologists swarm in by the busload.

You won't be trying that again, will you. Christianity-bashing is encourged, however.

 

[DC]

See what happens when you try to criticize Muslims around here? Yeah, that's right. Muslim apologists swarm in by the busload.

You won't be trying that again, will you. Christianity-bashing is encourged, however.

Critizing Moslems for what?
you can hardly criticize them that there are radicals also in their religion.

and every moslem coming here and debate will experiance just the same as Christians do. their old myths get wipped apart and sometimes mocked.

 

[USEagle13]

Christianity does that, too. It's not exactly a unique thing:

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ummm. Not telling Christians to kill anyone there...

2Co 6:3 Giving no offense in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

Just telling Christians not to worry or be offended by others. Not telling Christians to kill there..

2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings;
2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
2Co 6:8 By honor and dishonor, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

In a nutshell...life sucks at times, learn to deal with it, and your reward will be there when it is all over. NOT TELLING CHRISTIANS TO KILL THERE.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Your post and 99% of other so called "skeptics" in this forum who give their 2 cents on the Bible are a testament to the absolute truth of this passage.

Not telling Christians to kill anyone there.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Not telling Christians to kill anyone there. Talking about worshipping the idols of the world such as money, material possesions, fame, etc.

Mar 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Not telling any Christians to kill anyone there. Shaking off the dust of one's feet simply means the person doing the shaking was insulted or persecuted because of their beliefs and instead of doing something negative out of revenge the offended is "shaking off the offenses" and leaving it into Gods hands.

There is a whole history behind that custom in case you ever want to look it up and lose your ignorance.

Of course, just like christianity, the amount of people that actually act on it are massively outnumbered by moderates that pick and choose what they wish to live by, depending on local culture, societal constructs and heritage as well as what branch of islam/christianity they follow.

Act on what? Preaching to spread the gospel and not seeking revenge? Actually Christians DO practice that and you should be glad. Nothing wrong with any of those versions up there. You just are a bigot with severe case of Christophobia.

LOL None of those verses are telling Christians to kill anyone dude. You don't even understand them and their context. And the old testament is more of a history book of old times than anything else. Lame attempt at slander there.

These following verses from the Koran do talk about specifically killing non believers and it is funny how you guys always quote verses out of the Bible then give them loose interpretations of what they mean, yet you never quote nothing of the Koran. No wonder you people are so delusional about Christianity.

These are some of the 164+ Jihad verses from the Koran:

Excerpt K 2:178-179
Set 1, Count 1+2 [2.178]...retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain... [2.179] ...there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Excerpt K 2:193-194
Set 3, Count 5+6 [193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you...

Excerpt K 2:216-218
Set 4, Count 7-9 [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you...[2.217]... fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter...persecution is graver than slaughter... [2.218]...strove hard in the way of Allah...

Excerpt K 2:244
Set 5, Count 10 ...fight in the way of Allah

Excerpt K 3:121-126
Set 6, Count 11-16 [3.121]...to lodge the believers in encampments for war...[3.122] When two parties from among you had determined that they should show cowardice [about Jihad]...[3.123]...Allah did certainly assist you at [the Battle of] Badr...[3.124]...[3.125] Yea! if you remain patient and are on your guard, and they come upon you in a headlong manner, your Lord will assist you with five thousand of the havoc-making angels. [3.126] ...victory is only from Allah...


Excerpt K 4:074-077
Set 15, Count 38-41 [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?...


Excerpt K 5:033
Set 21, Count 54 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned [Pickthall and Yusuf Ali have "exiled" rather than "imprisoned"]

Excerpt K 5:082
Set 23, Count 56 ...you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews [compare with "whenever Jews kindle fire for war, Allah [Muslims] puts it out" (K 005:064)] and those who are polytheists [while they are converted to Islam on pain of death]...

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.


Excerpt K 9:005
Set 33, Count 91 ...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...


Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. (This is actually starting to happen)

Excerpt K 9:036
Set 39, Count 102 ...fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together...

And it goes on and on and on. Some of the passages are alot longer and have much much more servere terms.

It's funny how you guys quote stuff on the Bible then put in your 2cents on your broad brush interpretation but have never even looked at the straight forward Jihad passages of a Koran to compare the two.

 

[Ethnikos]

Just stopping sending them food to prop up their artificially inflated overpopulations at our own environmental expense would be much easier.

I find this post bizarre at best and criminal at worse that you are advocating what has been deemed as a crime against humanity. So you would be aiding and abetting and promoting what the world has collectively deemed to be unlawful.

 

[DC]

Ummm. Not telling Christians to kill anyone there...


Just telling Christians not to worry or be offended by others. Not telling Christians to kill there..

In a nutshell...life sucks at times, learn to deal with it, and your reward will be there when it is all over. NOT TELLING CHRISTIANS TO KILL THERE.


Your post and 99% of other so called "skeptics" in this forum who give their 2 cents on the Bible are a testament to the absolute truth of this passage.

Not telling Christians to kill anyone there.


Not telling Christians to kill anyone there. Talking about worshipping the idols of the world such as money, material possesions, fame, etc.


Not telling any Christians to kill anyone there. Shaking off the dust of one's feet simply means the person doing the shaking was insulted or persecuted because of their beliefs and instead of doing something negative out of revenge the offended is "shaking off the offenses" and leaving it into Gods hands.

There is a whole history behind that custom in case you ever want to look it up and lose your ignorance.




Act on what? Preaching to spread the gospel and not seeking revenge? Actually Christians DO practice that and you should be glad. Nothing wrong with any of those versions up there. You just are a bigot with severe case of Christophobia.

LOL None of those verses are telling Christians to kill anyone dude. You don't even understand them and their context. And the old testament is more of a history book of old times than anything else. Lame attempt at slander there.

These following verses from the Koran do talk about specifically killing non believers and it is funny how you guys always quote verses out of the Bible then give them loose interpretations of what they mean, yet you never quote nothing of the Koran. No wonder you people are so delusional about Christianity.

These are some of the 164+ Jihad verses from the Koran:

Excerpt K 2:178-179
Set 1, Count 1+2 [2.178]...retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain... [2.179] ...there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.

Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Excerpt K 2:193-194
Set 3, Count 5+6 [193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you...

Excerpt K 2:216-218
Set 4, Count 7-9 [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you...[2.217]... fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter...persecution is graver than slaughter... [2.218]...strove hard in the way of Allah...

Excerpt K 2:244
Set 5, Count 10 ...fight in the way of Allah

Excerpt K 3:121-126
Set 6, Count 11-16 [3.121]...to lodge the believers in encampments for war...[3.122] When two parties from among you had determined that they should show cowardice [about Jihad]...[3.123]...Allah did certainly assist you at [the Battle of] Badr...[3.124]...[3.125] Yea! if you remain patient and are on your guard, and they come upon you in a headlong manner, your Lord will assist you with five thousand of the havoc-making angels. [3.126] ...victory is only from Allah...


Excerpt K 4:074-077
Set 15, Count 38-41 [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?...


Excerpt K 5:033
Set 21, Count 54 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned [Pickthall and Yusuf Ali have "exiled" rather than "imprisoned"]

Excerpt K 5:082
Set 23, Count 56 ...you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews [compare with "whenever Jews kindle fire for war, Allah [Muslims] puts it out" (K 005:064)] and those who are polytheists [while they are converted to Islam on pain of death]...

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.


Excerpt K 9:005
Set 33, Count 91 ...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...


Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. (This is actually starting to happen)

Excerpt K 9:036
Set 39, Count 102 ...fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together...

And it goes on and on and on. Some of the passages are alot longer and have much much more servere terms.

It's funny how you guys quote stuff on the Bible then put in your 2cents on your broad brush interpretation but have never even looked at the straight forward Jihad passages of a Koran to compare the two.

well i am glad that christians, even those that believe in the OT, do not follow it literaly. Thank you for not stoning me anymore.

and whenever i see the claim that Christians are a threat to society because of their Old testament , i will chalenge it.

 

[tsig]

There's a conflation here that needs to be addressed.

I think we all agree that if a so-called holy text advocates violence or other bad behavior, then this is bad, but all by itself, no cause for concern.

It's another matter entirely if there's a sizable population that believes this advocation of violence is something that is meant to be taken literally. The text on paper is not the same as the person who treats it as a way of life, so we shouldn't pretend they are the same.

Now, if someone wants to show that violent Muslims are any realistic concern, by all means, provide evidence.

911

 

[Toontown]

Critizing Moslems for what?
you can hardly criticize them that there are radicals also in their religion.

Why not? Not politically correct?

At any rate, your strawman is a strawman. It was fundamental tenets of the religion that were being questioned, not a radical fringe element. A question was posed as to why so many Muslims do not seem to understand how the call to enslave the "kuffars" and rape their women tends to arouse something less than warm feelings among the kuffars.

and every moslem coming here and debate will experiance just the same as Christians do. their old myths get wipped apart and sometimes mocked.

Sure they will. But not by the resident Muslim apologists.