Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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The owner of the footprint on the bathmat had to get into the bathroom somehow and his foot was covered with blood. There should be traces.
Likewise from the room to the bathroom.

Really? Why do you assume that his foot was covered in blood on the way to the bathroom? There is not evidence of bloody footprints in the murder room, just shoe prints, so how would the blood have gotten onto the person's foot?

If however the blood was on the person's clothing, particularly the pant leg, then attempting to quickly wash the blood from that in the shower would have meant that diluted blood would have washed down onto the foot, creating the footprint when he stepped out from the shower. By then drying his feet and replacing his socks before returning to the murder scene and replacing his shoes, that person would have then left footprints neither to, or from the bathroom.
 
After the attempted badgering of the experts in court on Monday, and the idiotic send-the-police-to-Rome-to-intimidate-the-experts stunt they pulled yesterday, I think that Hellmann will be loaded for bear. They can raise legitimate questions about the report, but I think he will open a can of whoop-ass if they treat HIS experts with anything less than dignity.

Glad you mentioned whoop-ass. Somewhere in a closet there's an old shirt of my duaghter's that I should send to Amanda to wear at the appropriate time. The Ts were made specially for either Y (swimming) districts or states
On the shirt was printed - " We are here to kick ass and hand out lollipops and sorry we are fresh out of lollipops!" :cool:
 
Really? Why do you assume that his foot was covered in blood on the way to the bathroom? There is not evidence of bloody footprints in the murder room, just shoe prints, so how would the blood have gotten onto the person's foot?

If however the blood was on the person's clothing, particularly the pant leg, then attempting to quickly wash the blood from that in the shower would have meant that diluted blood would have washed down onto the foot, creating the footprint when he stepped out from the shower. By then drying his feet and replacing his socks before returning to the murder scene and replacing his shoes, that person would have then left footprints neither to, or from the bathroom.

one possibility is the blood ran from the leg downward, into the shoe. While the soles were not yet contacted to blood.

what i wonder is if there was a second trip to get a towel as Rudy mentioned, where are the tracks? I would think there would be some, but thats specualtion.

but then again, even the tracks to the door as shown in the picture on the previous page were nearly invisible.
No one on Nov 2, of the original group, saw or mentioned the shoeprints leading to the door.

I agree when we see Merediths bedroom floor, its hard to imagine the murderer not leaving a long trail of prints from there, but maybe there wasn't a trail.
 
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I think Comodi is the one in charge of the DNA evidence. Mignini in his CNN interview has already "washed his hands" of any responsibility for DNA by claiming that he brought Comodi in specifically for this purpose because Mignini doesn't understand DNA. It'll be the cross-examination of her life. I don't think she has a prayer of undermining C&V enough to have their recommendations rejected. Her strategy would have to be to put on Stefanoni to rebut C&V, but I'm not sure if this is in the cards.

It's seems odd to me we never hear the prosecutors name?
Is he even there? Is it even a he? maybe a her?
The invisible prosecutor.

Does it sit in the back row while Mignini and Commodi take over the microphone?

I recall Girgha stating he'd never heard of this before.
 
It's seems odd to me we never hear the prosecutors name?
Is he even there? Is it even a he? maybe a her?
The invisible prosecutor.

The name is Costagliola, and all I recall from what Broken_English posted at the IIP site is he's hopeful of a Supreme Court nomination at some point.

Does it sit in the back row while Mignini and Commodi take over the microphone?

I have wondered the same thing for quite some time now. This one doesn't seem to talk to the press at all either, and it's my guess he's the one who muzzled (presumably) Mignini who was sourced almost satirically recently something to the effect of 'person not allowed to speak for the prosecution'--who was of course speaking for the prosecution in the piece.

I recall Girgha stating he'd never heard of this before.

The way I read it, the whole purpose of the first appeal is to give the defendant an entire other chance with a whole new court, including a new prosecutor to preclude animus--like which happened in this case in the trial of the first instance. That's what I recall Girgha saying he'd never seen before, that Mignini and Comodi managed to worm themselves into the process again, even taking starring roles.

Personally I suspect the guy aiming for a Supreme Court nomination might just want someone around to absorb the flak from this unstable conviction when it goes critical, and is doing their damn level best to avoid attracting any attention as it goes down. We'll see if that's how it plays out.
 
I'm not sure this is what you are saying, but I believe the pillow case was collected early on. On Dec 18th the pillow is seen without the case in the wardrobe.

Is it possible they didn't see the semen stain? That Vinci was the first to find the stain? Seems unlikely.

Draca, this is from Barbie's book. Keep in mind Barbie's close relationship with the prosecution and police in this case:

8FNBb.png


Sounds like they knew from the get go that it could be semen and Stefanoni's excuse makes little sense. Testing for one would compromise the other? Someone explain how that's possible if they're still able to test it.

You can view a lot of the previous debate here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176868&page=12. Michael.net/Fulcanelli's arguments were hysterical. The other knee slap inducing argument he made was that the defense could test it if they wanted to, so why don't they do it? (If you read the conversation you'll see) Of course, this argument is ridiculous because obviously they weren't allowed to test it themselves being that they were asking to have it tested in the first place.

Here's Michael.net/Fulcanelli's diatribe now:
http://i.imgur.com/7g0oz.png
Do not post large images.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis


Now, the first thing you'll notice is that he states he never reads JREF, which is obviously a lie. But that's neither here nor there.

His first point is that "The alleged semen stain was not tested by the police because they didn't know it was there, they didn't find it." Thank you Barbie Nadeau for having such a close relationship with the police. Obviously, Stefanoni knew of both the stains and chose not to test them based on the shady logic expressed in Barbie's book. Do any of his points stand on their own merit knowing that number 1 is false? Nope, points 2 through 6 entirely rely on the assumption in point 1.

The arguments for not testing the stain are ridiculous and always have been and no one here has brought an excuse for this failure.

ETA: The Semen gate controversy started here-- http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176868&page=10 for anyone interesting. It's quite a nostalgic read.
 
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Bolint,

A video reconstruction of the rock breaking the window was shown in court and a portion seen here:

http://video.sky.it/?videoID=28470121001#video

Notice where the rock ends up and notice the glass on the sill.

I knew this video, too.
Now look again the scene images where the real rock was found. Unlike the test rock which settles in a middle position, the real rock is far to the right. In the test video's room it would be around the table's leg.

As for the glass, my problem is with the glass pieces on the outer sill.
 
In a town the size of Perugia, in how many minutes would you (or Knox/Sollecito) expect the police to arrive after phoning them, and how do you arrive at this number? Seems to me like 2 minutes would be a perfectly reasonable time, and it would have been weird for them to phone the police before they were ready, if they were actively involved in a clean-up.

We know it for a fact that the Carabinieri they were waiting for arrived at about 35 minutes after the call.

I arrived at the 2 minutes from the CCTV video images of the postals' arrival.
In my timeline reconstruction they arrived at around 12:58.

As for weirdness, it was 20 minutes after Filomena had told them to call the police and that she would be there soon. Any cleanup would have been finished by then, anyway. And I don't think that much cleanup was done at that time.
 
What I find even stranger is the idea she would have done it knowingly. The splotch itself doesn't necessarily scream bloody murder, and if she didn't know what it was she might not have cared overmuch just to get the few yards to her room, but to suggest she did it deliberately? Where's that come from? She knew that was her murdered roommate's blood but she would boogie it back to her room anyway? Keep a piece of potentially incriminating evidence around and play with it? Then tell them about it?

I'm afraid I can understand how a delusional nutcase like Mignini might see only one possibility there, but for me that's just exculpatory evidence.

Wait. You are mixing two hypotheses.
In the innocent version, the bathmat boogie, if somewhat weird, is naturally innocent.
In the guilty version, however, the whole story of shower, hair drying, etc. is made up, including the bathmat boogie.
 
Absolutely. They would not have called the police until the clean up was finished. Especially if they were trying to get away with murder they would have checked and checked again. It's hard to imagine they simply wouldn't notice the blood on the bathmat and try and do something. The only logical guilty reason to leave it would be because Rudy Guede left it and they wanted him to take the fall. But why didn't they at a point blame RG then?

How could they have pointed to RG directly?
 
why do you believe that Amanda Knox, -(after being told by text from her boss that she did not have to work that night and then, after speaking with Jovanna Popovic, who said to tell Raffaele that she did not need him to do that late night favor for her), even went back to her home that night?

What made her run over there, -(without Raffaele in tow for safety reasons), that couldn't wait until morning when she and Raffaele were planning to go on that day trip to Gubbio? Fresh clothes? A good long hot shower and to grab some sexy lingerie? What was it?

Changing clothes is one of the reasons. She had been dressed for work in the bar.

What is it that you believe that made Amanda leave a warm apartment on a cold night and head over to her own pad

Well, I don't have the impression that Amanda liked to go to bed with the chickens. Except in her alibi story.



(with that huge kitchen knife in her large handbag), the night that Meredith was brutaly, bloodily murdered?

The huge knife is strange, obviously.

But I quote someone:
"My real concerns are now two:
... The second one is that Amanda may have taken [fregato] the knife from me to give it to the son of a bitch that killed Meredith ... even this hypothesis is a bit of science fiction, but possible, therefore I am worried..."

Guess who.
It is none other than Raffaele in his diary.

Considering that Amanda herself said that she had carried a knife in her bag for self-defense earlier in North Europe, it is not so pure science fiction.


There is simply no strong evidence to support the prosections theory that Amanda nor Raffaele were ever in Meredith's bedroom the night she was brutally stabbed to her death and sexually assaulted...

I agree. There is no strong evidence.
 
OK, this picture then?

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/1000.jpg[/qimg]

Here's my point: You can barely see Rudy's traces, and of course not the invisible stains lit up with luminol, how did they manage to clean up everything else without disturbing the ones they could not see? You take a mop soaked with bleach and swish it around that little area for a minute or two and you're done. However to selectively miss all the stuff they couldn't or could barely see is not only extremely time consuming it's damn near impossible. Also, assuming they knew about the stains meaning they might have remembered they could have made some, why would they want to miss those stains?

The shoeprints from Meredith's door to the entrance originate from where?
Inside the room there are know shoeprints near the door.
Likewise there are know shoeprints at all in the bathroom.
The first shoeprint is magically in front of the door, out of nothing.
How is it possible?
(Do we have an image of this first shoeprint?)




Well, I think by the time you've alerted your parents, siblings and roommates there's something wrong, and called the cops, I gotta believe if you're this brazen murderess and diabolical slaveboy they must have been ready to deal with the cops--who they could have just sent on their way by saying 'thanks for the phones.' Then--when they all crossed their fingers and said 'crosspatch' three times--they could deal with the Carabinieri when they were really truly ready.


I don't think that there was cleanup going on after the first phone call.
I even doubt that Amanda was in the cottage between 10:00-12:30
She was there earlier.




OK, it was her e-mail I was thinking of, however where are you getting a 'lie' out of this? Who's supposedly lying about what and why? All this says is Raffaele told Napoleoni on the second that Amanda had told her about the dump in the toilet. I vaguely recall some discussion of this elsewhere, but I don't recall it amounting to anything, where's the great globs of guilt in this?

It is quite clear that Raffaele did not see the toilet in the state it was discovered by the police. Otherwise he wouldn't have said that it was clean.
And yet, he said that he looked at it and it was clean. Is not it a lie?

(the rest later)
 
It is quite clear that Raffaele did not see the toilet in the state it was discovered by the police. Otherwise he wouldn't have said that it was clean.
And yet, he said that he looked at it and it was clean. Is not it a lie?

This is something I find a lot with CT's, if someone states something that is incorrect, they must be lying, there is no possibility that they are simply mistaken.

The unflushed tiolet was in the large bathroom, from Raff's statement it seems most likely that he was assuming it was in the small bathroom (she found when having a shower) and since he didn't see it in the small bathroom, his assumption was it was gone.
 
This is something I find a lot with CT's, if someone states something that is incorrect, they must be lying, there is no possibility that they are simply mistaken.

The unflushed tiolet was in the large bathroom, from Raff's statement it seems most likely that he was assuming it was in the small bathroom (she found when having a shower) and since he didn't see it in the small bathroom, his assumption was it was gone.

It may "seem most likely" to you, but Raffaele is quite clear in his diary. On the one hand he specifically names the other bathroom, on the other hand he says that it was Amanda who told him that there were no faeces in the toilet. She surely knew in which toilet she had seen the faeces before.

Raffaele:
November 7

Meanwhile, she had spoken to me about the fact that she had found something strange at her house. That is, she had found the front door open, faeces in the Italian girls’ bathroom
(..)
We look around [facciamo un giro] te house and Amanda is terrified and jumps on me because she tells me that the faeces wre no longer in the toilet since presumably before, when she was taking a shower, she had seen that there were faeces in the bathroom and nobody had flushed the toilet. I have
a look and leaning over I see the reflection of the water and, not seeing any faeces, I believe what Amanda had told [diceva] me.
 
The difference is he prejudged them, and then his lawyer attempts to use every opportunity to silence and punish the families of Amanda and Raffaele. It is quite a bit different to defend someone than it is to attack the families of the two accused. I don't see how you can equivocate them.

As for the articles, the part about Meredith would hardly be discomfiting, it's the part about him expressing that he's made up his mind already without due process, he doesn't think she should be allowed (the mandatory) appeals, that people speaking out in her defense are 'cultists' and by giving a vague blessing to TJMK/PMF which never saw a cheap shot it wouldn't take at either family.

Just because he's the father of the victim doesn't mean that the accused don't get their day in court, that 'innocent until proven guilty' does not apply, nor that he can adopt the standards of the lynch mob without censure.

Maresca is party to the suits and charges against Amanda for daring to tell her side of the story, Amanda's parents for trying to tell her side of the story, and the Sollecitos, again for trying to tell Raffaele's side of the story. There's no universe where this is 'commendable' behavior. It may be legal, but there's nothing dignified about it, and there's no pretending it won't have consequences just by wishing that is so.

Lemme put it this way: which parts of his interaction would you prefer be left out of the movie? The big one I mean, the one perhaps written off of Grisham's book. Do you really want to be sitting there in the theater as they watch the sequence of events unfold and find that Maresca is involved in every reprehensible attack by the prosecution on the families of the accused? Do you suppose that would garner him sympathy with the audience?

Do you really want the audience watching as Maresca is participating in the persecution of the Sollecitos for Raffaele's father supposedly using his 'influence' to get on TV, while John Kercher is even more probably using his 'influence' as a former tabloid writer to write articles in the Daily Mail, Star and Times condemning them in no uncertain terms and writing something to the effect that it pains him that people think them innocent implying they should shut up and go away? The Times would be the same paper that got Amanda's parents charged for this piece, of which no-one has been able to point out the offending passage that could mean jail time for them. That article is almost six months before charges were filed! Does that mean they objected to the very idea of Amanda voicing a defense?

How about the part when Maresca is hugging the villain, Mignini, over the bogus DNA evidence? How do you suppose that's going to play with the folks in the theater? Or how about every sleazy line in court, as Maresca plays the prosecution's bitch pitbull?

There's a concept know as 'innocent until proven guilty.' It's one a few nations have found wise to adopt, even Italy as of late. It perhaps should have been remembered by those who chose to take such an aggressive posture on such ridiculous charges. Especially as that mindless embrace of the ludicrous notion that Meredith died in some bizarre ritual was just made up by the crackpot last seen digging up bodies checking pants sizes, looking for Satanic cults responsible for cases twenty or thirty years cold.

You can believe this commendable all you wish, it won't change what those audiences are going to think, if the whole story gets told in the movie. Personally I'd prefer it was not, my suspicion is John Kercher was used by Mignini and Maresca, and I can understand why he might have been susceptible to it. Just like those journalists he got played and it might never have occurred to him Mignini would lie to him, he supposedly has quite a commanding visage in his element, and in the end I think the Bad Guys here are the players and not the played.

Just for curiosity's sake is there anything you would consider 'not commendable' that the Kercher's could do, short of physically attacking Raffaele and Amanda in court? How about they show up and throw rotten eggs, that wouldn't damage them much, would that be also commendable? There's not much more they can do, short of physical violence, that's more damaging to them than supporting the trumped-up charges of the corrupt prosecutor as he tries to silence criticism of the railroad he's engineered. They could end up in jail, that's the worst most countries do these days--to those who do violence.

This isn't just me being mean Coulsdon, I'm just pointing out the obvious. If that movie is ever made--telling the whole story--in the end audiences may wonder just what makes the Kerchers think they have a license to attempt to deny justice to the accused, and destroy two additional families.
Speaking of movies I would have to say the twist, turns, up’s and downs of the police investigation, evidence gather, evil prosecutors et al, trial and appeal would not believed as a movie plot. Fact is or media reports are indeed stranger than fiction. The attached link relates to the recent witness Aviello allegedly changing his storey, what is the world coming when prison witnesses cannot be trusted.

http://www.umbria24.it/meredith-aviello-%C2%ABho-detto-cose-false-concordate-con-gli-avvocati-di-sollecito-in-cambio-di-soldi%C2%BB/52791.html

I have no idea whether the above is accurate I post only to see whether others can confirm or refute.
 
Are you aware that the pieces of glass were found very deep into the room? How could that be if the rock was thrown from inside?

It was not thrown. It might even have not been used at all to break the window.

If it was not thrown at all and the window was just broken and then they placed the rock under the chair, then how would you explain the glass being that far from the window? Did they place it by their own fingers, these little pieces of broken window? If so, then why there's no DNA or fingerprints on these pieces coming from Amanda or Raffaele?

Hitting the window with a hard object from outside while standing in the room does the job.


To me, the rock landed exactly in the place it should land if thrown from outside and there's dirt under the rock, which means it landed with big force (leaving dirt on the floor).

To me it's too far to the right. Especially if the impact was close to the hinge as the relatively fresh damage suggests.
 
It was not thrown. It might even have not been used at all to break the window.

What was used, then? Is this your theory and can you fit it to the evidence?

It Hitting the window with a hard object from outside while standing in the room does the job.

I am afraid you have lost me on this one. Can you explain? The evidence shows the inner shutters were closed by the rock impact in the inner shutters. Did the glass travel through the wood of the shutters to end up by the nightstand?

To me it's too far to the right. Especially if the impact was close to the hinge as the relatively fresh damage suggests.

Hitting the window on that side of the inner shutters would make it go further to the right. In the demo video it does not appear to hit at that point and could explain why it is not far to the left-about the length of a large kitchen utensil. In addition the rock actually landed in a bag that appears to have fallen forward and to the right (our right), in the demo the impact on the floor is closer to the smaller piece that broke off (no contact with a bag).

The defense successfully demonstrated it was possible, indeed quite probable that the window was broken from a rock thrown from the outside. What has the prosecution done to demonstrate their theory (or yours) was even remotely possible?
 

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Thank you, I know this.
It does not contain anything proving computer use after 21:26.
I'm not sure if even 21:26 is mentioned in it, at all.

It is hard to read broken English but it is understandable. It may not be proof but it does show some activity far into the night/early AM. The defense simply requested a review by an independent expert of this information on the computer, similar to that done with C&V on the DNA. My guess is that the report would reveal much incompetence on the part of the police expert and cast serious doubt on his results.
 
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Speaking of movies I would have to say the twist, turns, up’s and downs of the police investigation, evidence gather, evil prosecutors et al, trial and appeal would not believed as a movie plot. Fact is or media reports are indeed stranger than fiction. The attached link relates to the recent witness Aviello allegedly changing his storey, what is the world coming when prison witnesses cannot be trusted.

http://www.umbria24.it/meredith-aviello-%C2%ABho-detto-cose-false-concordate-con-gli-avvocati-di-sollecito-in-cambio-di-soldi%C2%BB/52791.html

I have no idea whether the above is accurate I post only to see whether others can confirm or refute.


Who knows what this means. The tragedy is that Sollecito was wrongfully convicted and then locked in a cell with this guy.
 
Who knows what this means. The tragedy is that Sollecito was wrongfully convicted and then locked in a cell with this guy.

What is crazy is that they are investigating calumnia charges made by accusations against Rudy rather than this guys accusations against Raffaele's lawyer. Just bizarre.

Another example of the defense strategy of bringing these lying liars to testify in court completely backfiring.

There are hints elsewhere that the cops are going to try and claim the evidence collection video was somehow doctored in collusion with the defense.
 
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