Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Rolfe]

Put me down in the "they tested it and suppressed the results" camp.

Well, if that's the case, I hope to hell it was either vaseline or Rudy. The idea that there was evidence of someone else entirely being involved, and that wasn't followed up, is too appalling to contemplate.

Rolfe.

 

[RandyN]

I was thinking particularly of the bra-clasp video, where (without viewing it again) I think they were at least done-up completely. But then there's the "mop gift-wrap" sequence and the photo of the guy outside on the balcony.

Actually if you review the bra clasp collection you see that in addition to the… dirty glove grab fest and accidental drop oh well lets take a photo section, you will notice that at least one person has the mask pulled down below his roman nose. het...chooooooooo.

I think you can actually see the moment of DNA transfer. One tech points and then touches directly the small metal clasp. Later this same tech after the bra clasp pass, is revealed to be the dirty glove guy. That shot is a still photo ...perhaps a video grab...

Anyway these images were the gasping and chuckle moments during Mondays presentation. I’m not sure the mop scene made the cut...For me that that should have led the sizzle reel.

 

[Kaosium]

I meant to ask about this before. There's a possible/probable semen stain at the scene of a violent rape and murder, and it hasn't been tested?

How come? How come anyone has to ask for something like this to be done? Why wasn't it done as routine? Or even as mega-top priority?

Rolfe.

It's just one of those things about this case, I don't get it either, no one really does. The most innocuous is that they know it's (highly) probably not a semen stain and just didn't test it for that reason. However others have looked at it under the crimescope and thought differently, Halides1 often posts the details on that. I have trouble with the idea they never tested it because I gotta figure if Stefanoni is going in there to retrieve new 'evidence' I cannot quite believe she would test the luminol prints for TMB and DNA, find them negative, then they would make such of display of themselves 'finding' the bra clasp when they couldn't know if anything was actually on it, and having a putative semen stain just sit there unmolested the whole time as they find entirely suspect 'evidence' without her ever taking a peek at what would be the grand prize of all. There's just a limit to my incompetence threshold, eventually we will reach the point where they haven't displayed the native intelligence necessary to get out of bed in the morning!

If that's the case and they tested it, I bet it probably showed up Rudy or her boyfriend and they just decided to bury it. No need to 'confuse' the jury. I maintained for a long while that it was probably the boyfriend's and that they knew that early on being as he was obviously one of the first they interviewed, and out of respect for the deceased, and more to the point, an...unwillingness...to 'confuse' the jury they didn't test it. However it has occurred to me since that it was the Polizia Scientifica doing the forensic work, and the Squadra Mobile (The Perugian 'Flying Squad' of the Polizia di Stato) doing the interviews with some help from the SCO from Rome, thus that would be another layer of collusion to add. Not making it impossible but a less likely alternative than I originally considered.

There's some level where I wonder if it was Rudy whether they'd tell at this point, being as it appears the Kerchers have bought the fantasy that Rudy was a peripheral antagonist, that the impetus was the Witch-Woman Amanda and her mindless minion Raffaele. If that stain does show Guede, it makes mincemeat of that fantasy. In defiance of that is Rudy's insistence from the very beginning (as in the police-observed and taped Skype call) adamantly opposed to having sex with Meredith, but admitting to being there, suggesting he was aware enough of modern police methods to know his traces should have been found, but also should be astute enough to realize there's no point lying about it--though that was to a friend he might not want to admit that to anyway.

Incidentally, I recall from last summer or thereabouts reading frequently that it went untested because both the prosecution and Raffaele's lawyers objected to it. This obviously doesn't explain why they didn't test it automatically, but on other levels makes a certain amount of sense. The prosecution for reasons posted previously, and Raffaele's lawyers not for the sinister insinuations of his detractors, but because Raffaele and his lawyers have learned to be mighty dubious of anything that came out of that lab after they claimed Meredith's DNA was on his kitchen knife, and Raffaele's DNA was on her bra clasp. Another test is just another way for Raffaele's DNA to show up where it shouldn't ought to be. The problem about this is I don't know if any of it is true, or someone elsewhere just 'hypothesized' it and made it reality in their little universe, I just recall reading it several times at one point, but not recently.

Now I'm leaning towards they know it's Guede and don't want to expose that. I think in all actuality it might even serve to benefit the defense in court. If they can say--and they do--that a putative semen stain right under the body of the deceased is immaterial because it could have been made at any time, as in this singular instance they recognize that DNA doesn't come with a time stamp, that's just wonderful ammunition for when they try to go into Amanda's bathroom and make any sort of hay over finding her DNA in her own sink and bidet.

 

[Antony]

I cannot quite believe she would test the luminol prints for TMB and DNA, find them negative, then they would make such of display of themselves 'finding' the bra clasp when they couldn't know if anything was actually on it,

Ah ... but in the video they very much act as if they did know at the time what would ultimately be "found" on the bra-clasp.

and having a putative semen stain just sit there unmolested the whole time as they find entirely suspect 'evidence' without her ever taking a peek at what would be the grand prize of all.

That's very much the point I've been making.

 

[Diocletus]

I hope Hellman will be alert to her shenanigans - she seems to be a much more accomplished liar than Mignini. When she tries her "Smoke and Mirrors" act I would like to see nothing better than for all that smoke to be blown straight up her ***!

After the attempted badgering of the experts in court on Monday, and the idiotic send-the-police-to-Rome-to-intimidate-the-experts stunt they pulled yesterday, I think that Hellmann will be loaded for bear. They can raise legitimate questions about the report, but I think he will open a can of whoop-ass if they treat HIS experts with anything less than dignity.

 

[Kaosium]

Ah ... but in the video they very much act as if they did know at the time what would ultimately be "found" on the bra-clasp.

Yeah, they were kinda hopping up and down inside their bunny suits, weren't they? It could be it was just that they found the clasp, and figured it an important item to have found, but that begs the question of why they just left it there in the first place.

That's very much the point I've been making.

It's a powerful one too, especially as it now appears Stefanoni will fold on even attempting to rebut the experts humiliating her and her team in court. All she had to do was one little test and it was over, with no more risks taken, yet she demurs and offers up garbage evidence instead?

 

[JREF2010]

Diocletus,
I think Hellman served some discipline to the Defense too, when they wanted to question Rudy about the murder, he didn't allow it. He kept them on track and within the rules of discussing only the Alessi issue.

From what I have seen, he has seemed extremely neutral, as compared to Massei.

Example, he allowed Mignini to participate, which seemed pro-prosecution.

He allowed neutral experts for the DNA and silenced those who interrupted....even the great Maresca, who seems to have carte blanche until now.

 

[Draca]

It's just one of those things about this case, I don't get it either, no one really does. The most innocuous is that they know it's (highly) probably not a semen stain and just didn't test it for that reason. However others have looked at it under the crimescope and thought differently, Halides1 often posts the details on that. I have trouble with the idea they never tested it because I gotta figure if Stefanoni is going in there to retrieve new 'evidence' I cannot quite believe she would test the luminol prints for TMB and DNA, find them negative, then they would make such of display of themselves 'finding' the bra clasp when they couldn't know if anything was actually on it, and having a putative semen stain just sit there unmolested the whole time as they find entirely suspect 'evidence' without her ever taking a peek at what would be the grand prize of all. There's just a limit to my incompetence threshold, eventually we will reach the point where they haven't displayed the native intelligence necessary to get out of bed in the morning!

I'm not sure this is what you are saying, but I believe the pillow case was collected early on. On Dec 18th the pillow is seen without the case in the wardrobe.

Is it possible they didn't see the semen stain? That Vinci was the first to find the stain? Seems unlikely.

 

[Diocletus]

As for the articles, the part about Meredith would hardly be discomfiting, it's the part about him expressing that he's made up his mind already without due process, he doesn't think she should be allowed (the mandatory) appeals, that people speaking out in her defense are 'cultists' and by giving a vague blessing to TJMK/PMF which never saw a cheap shot it wouldn't take at either family.

LOL. I think I'd be a little disturbed if a pervert was running a website featuring pictures of my dead daughter. But that's just me.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm not sure this is what you are saying, but I believe the pillow case was collected early on. On Dec 18th th pillow is seen without the case in the wardrobe.

Is it possible they didn't see the semen stain? That Vinci was the first to find the stain? Seems unlikely.

You mean they had it in evidence already? That I didn't realize, though come to think of it the excuse that they wanted to 'preserve' that footprint (was that the smeared one Napoleoni posited as being female?) heavily implies that.

If she had it in her hot little hands already, so to speak, then it never being tested becomes more and more of a dubious enterprise. Once she got a look at that unlikely soiree of alleles on that tiny clasp, and knowing the luminol couldn't stand scrutiny, then her just ignoring that possible Gold Mine of Guilt becomes less and less plausible in my mind. How could someone (who we know cheated in big ways) not want to peek at what they might have there? No one has to know if she does it surreptitiously, if she can get herself out on the action teams she ought to be able to access the evidence locker...

I wonder if Charlie's right on this one, that stain never will be tested now, regardless. It will have 'decayed in storage' if it ever even comes up.

 

[RandyN]

I'm not sure this is what you are saying, but I believe the pillow case was collected early on. On Dec 18th th pillow is seen without the case in the wardrobe.

Is it possible they didn't see the semen stain? That Vinci was the first to find the stain? Seems unlikely.

That is actually exactly what happened. Vinci with his crime scope was the first to id the stain. It has been the prosecution though who objects to the testing of this item. You can be certain Stefanoni knows the who what and where about this stain. You can also be certain that if were attributable to RS we would have known that long ago. It is the DNA of MK or RG. Most likely drool.

Comodi is clever and no light weight. Remember her ability with the jury after proof positive that the luminol footprints could never be made from blood. They were tested with TMB and all were negative and no further testing was done (by design I’m certain). So we have luminol footprints ...they lead no where and mean nothing ...they contain no DNA...yet Comodi looks to the jury and pulls out this little beauty....Well...the luminol prints they say no blood...they say turnip juice....you decide. And from that they did decide these prints were blood and that they were made by AK. Insane trick yet she got away with it. I don’t expect she will be able to dismiss these experts at all. Stefanoni has helped her by making notes...I doubt any notes can hide the truth this time. The dog and pony shows are over. Just a little mopping up yet and the circus can leave town

 

[Justinian2]

The murder weapon had no blood, just starch from cutting bread.
Conclusion: The evidence shows that Amanda wasn’t much of a chief.

I can determine who can win a chess game by just looking for two weaknesses. The prosecution's case has a million weaknesses. The defense surely can win this case.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Are you, and Kevin for that matter, suggesting that the Kerchers are motivated by a pay out? If so, this is a disgusting proposition. Without evidence. Unskeptical.

There is no evidence they are after money, unless for some reason you count their direct pursuit of money as evidence. Counting such actions would be unskeptical.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I never quite understood what would change if there was Guede's semen on the pillow. It would not change his jail time, would it? It would not work in favour of Raffaele or Amanda either, correct?

The only major thing it would change is that it would make it even harder for the guilters to construct a plausible narrative where Amanda and Raffaele are primarily responsible and where Guede is the poor, misunderstood kid who has shown remorse and is the victim of evil Amanda's sexy, hypnotic powers.

Their usual attempts involve some very vague "prank" or something that "went wrong" somehow and they "had to" murder Meredith "to keep her quiet". Yeah, murdering someone to keep a "prank" quiet might not seem like a story that makes much sense but don't blame me, I didn't make these things up. They usually want Amanda or Raffaele to be the one who strikes the fatal blow too, so they work that in somewhere.

The problem is that Meredith's bra was removed after she suffered the fatal blow but before she died, and if you add Rudy Guede's semen to the picture the obvious supposition arises that Guede sexually assaulted her until he climaxed as she lay dying. As revolting criminal acts go that's pretty near the top of the heap - rehabilitating Guede's image once you've reached that conclusion is too hard even for guilter suspension of disbelief.

It also raises the question of what the heck Amanda and Raffaele were doing while Rudy was getting busy with his dying victim, and why neither of them has ever rolled over on the other two. You could maybe say that one of Amanda or Raffaele struck the fatal blow somehow, so that's why one of them has kept quiet, but what's the motivation for the other one to keep quiet instead of saying "Oh my God it was horrible, X stabbed Meredith and then Rudy raped her while she died"? Amanda and Raffaele had only been going out for six days, it's not as if this was a long-term affair that might inspire such loyalty.

The guilters would much rather the whole affair remain as vague as possible so they can keep enjoying their hate-fest without being bothered by pesky details such as the complete lack of even a single remotely plausible narrative to hang their hate on.

(To address a common guilter response in advance, it's not necessarily a problem if the prosecution can't prove which of several possible, plausible narratives actually happened. However it's a huge, even insurmountable problem if the prosecution can't come up with even one single, solitary plausible narrative, which is the case we have here. Uncertainty isn't a devastating problem, but the certainty that not one remotely coherent narrative exists is a devastating problem).

 

[Diocletus]

yet Comodi looks to the jury and pulls out this little beauty....Well...the luminol prints they say no blood...they say turnip juice....you decide. And from that they did decide these prints were blood and that they were made by AK. Insane trick yet she got away with it.

I don't get too excited about Comodi being able to trick the last judge and jury. It's like pulling one over on a remedial Kindergarten class. Hellmann won't buy it.

 

[theRealBob]

I meant to ask about this before. There's a possible/probable semen stain at the scene of a violent rape and murder, and it hasn't been tested?

How come? How come anyone has to ask for something like this to be done? Why wasn't it done as routine? Or even as mega-top priority?

Rolfe.

You can take it for granted that it was tested but the cops didn't want the results discussed in court.

Just the fact that they do cluelessly wrotten things with anything that faintly resembles a clue through every twist and turn of the case tells a story in itself.
Put simply, the prosecution's behaviour all the way through the trial is enough on it's to pronounnce an innocence verdict. That's without even bothering with the fact that there's no real evidence against those two, and there is already an obvious murderer ...

 

[theRealBob]

Well, if that's the case, I hope to hell it was either vaseline or Rudy. The idea that there was evidence of someone else entirely being involved, and that wasn't followed up, is too appalling to contemplate.

Rolfe.

I've always been a slight fan of that notion. It would certainly give the Perugian police more to think about than They can handle.

 

[theRealBob]

Personally, I don't see how Comodi can cross-examine Conti/Vecchiotti in any way that is beneficial to the prosecution. I cannot see how their DNA report is able to be rebutted in any meaningful fashion, but we shall see on Saturday I guess...

Commodi is doing the rebuttal because Steffanoni can't handle doing it herself. It's Steffanoni's job and it's also her evidence. But the debate is overwhelmingly stacked against her, and she risks the possibility of her own responses being unnecessarily incriminating, as she defends her blatantly corrupt practices.
She's been subbed off for her own good.

So it looks like she'll adopt standard Peruvian court practice and just threaten to sue...

 

[Kaosium]

That is actually exactly what happened. Vinci with his crime scope was the first to id the stain. It has been the prosecution though who objects to the testing of this item. You can be certain Stefanoni knows the who what and where about this stain. You can also be certain that if were attributable to RS we would have known that long ago. It is the DNA of MK or RG. Most likely drool.

I didn't know this! Or if I did I had thoroughly forgotten. This is the one with the footprint in it, isn't it? That was at one point a 'reason' not to test it, as they were afraid of damaging that footprint?

What makes you think it is drool? I'd think that would leave a different-looking type of stain.

Comodi is clever and no light weight. Remember her ability with the jury after proof positive that the luminol footprints could never be made from blood. They were tested with TMB and all were negative and no further testing was done (by design I’m certain). So we have luminol footprints ...they lead no where and mean nothing ...they contain no DNA...yet Comodi looks to the jury and pulls out this little beauty....Well...the luminol prints they say no blood...they say turnip juice....you decide. And from that they did decide these prints were blood and that they were made by AK. Insane trick yet she got away with it. I don’t expect she will be able to dismiss these experts at all. Stefanoni has helped her by making notes...I doubt any notes can hide the truth this time. The dog and pony shows are over. Just a little mopping up yet and the circus can leave town

Keep in mind the jurors just found them guilty, they didn't actually determine each and every individual piece of 'evidence' was valid, merely that the totality of the presentation spelt out guilt to them. Then Massei (along with someone named Christini or somesuch) has to write the narrative and 'reasoning' behind the verdict, and they took liberties with even what the prosecution presented. Thus the jurors might well have thought the footprints were a crock but were compelled by the DNA 'evidence' or the mixed DNA samples in the bathroom.

I don't think Comodi is a lightweight either, what I wonder is where is Mignini? When was the last sighting of the crank anyway, I'm drawing a blank here.

 

[Kaosium]

Commodi is doing the rebuttal because Steffanoni can't handle doing it herself. It's Steffanoni's job and it's also her evidence. But the debate is overwhelmingly stacked against her, and she risks the possibility of her own responses being unnecessarily incriminating, as she defends her blatantly corrupt practices.
She's been subbed off for her own good.

So it looks like she'll adopt standard Peruvian court practice and just threaten to sue...

They don't just threaten they do it. No matter how silly, no matter how petty, no matter how incriminating it looks, they sue--or better yet file criminal charges.

Interesting theory about Comodi, she ought to be less qualified in one respect, however she's no doubt dealt often with academics in court, she wouldn't be intimidated. I'm hopeful Hellmann will have to order her 'stifled' again this court session.

Incidentally, Bob, I was just reading the acknowledgments at the end of "Murder in Italy," are you the 'Bob' she gives thanks to there, the one who posted at her blog for two years?