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God without The Bible – Challenge to Theists

ynot

Philosopher
ynot
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Theists say people have existed for around 6000 years. For over 4000 of those years they would have had to have been aware of their God without the “benefit” of what is written in The Bible.

So here's my challenge to Theists . . .

Present your belief that a God exists without referring to The Bible in any way.
 
over 4000?
I'm pretty sure the old testament was around for a long time before the story of Jesus was written.
 
Is "theist" here referring exclusively to young earth creationist Christians?
 
Present your belief that a God exists without referring to The Bible in any way.
Click to expand...
Hindus, pagans, Wiccans, Muslims, Jews, Jedi, and all the rest do this all the time. In fact, it's only a subset of theists (Christians) who view the Bible as important, let alone accurate.

It does our side no favors to assume that all theists are Christians, any more than it helps us to assume that all atheists are New Atheists.
 
Rufo said:
Is "theist" here referring exclusively to young earth creationist Christians?
Click to expand...

Theos = God

Theists are people who believe in a God or Gods. Any gods no particulars.

A-Theists = NOT Theists
i.e. not believe in any gods. Any...none.
 
Leumas said:
Theos = God

Theists are people who believe in a God or Gods. Any gods no particulars.

A-Theists = NOT Theists
i.e. not believe in any gods. Any...none.
Click to expand...
I know what the words mean, but ynot's challenge seemed to be directed at a subset of theists, who believe humanity has existed for 6000 years and rely primarily on the Bible to present their beliefs. As Dinwar pointed out, there are plenty of other theists, and presenting this challenge to them seems a bit unnecessary. I was just surprised that they didn't seem to be included, for some reason.
 
ynot said:
Theists say people have existed for around 6000 years. For over 4000 of those years they would have had to have been aware of their God without the “benefit” of what is written in The Bible.

So here's my challenge to Theists . . .

Present your belief that a God exists without referring to The Bible in any way.
Click to expand...

fail
:rolleyes:
 
Oooops - Sorry about this thread. Rushed writing and posting it due to other pressing life issues and made a complete hash of it (premature articulation). :o

Let me start again - When I ask Theists (Christian) why they believe in a god they almost always use the Bible as their “proof“. People believed in a god before there was a Bible so it’s merely a “modern convenience” source of “proof”. I would like to know what God evidence Theists can provide without using The Bible or any historic literature in any way. Surely there would be more evidence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present creator of everything than ancient texts. If a God exists he/she/it would exist just as much today as thousands of years ago. Where/what is the current evidence a God Exists? Hope that makes more sense than the OP.
 
It something is created then it exists.

The logical converse of that statement is generally used as a starting point to argue the existence of a creator. The two problems with this are:
1) The truth or falsity of a statement says nothing about the truth or falsity of its converse.
2) There is absolutely no way to verify anybody's claim that s/he received a personal message from the creator.
 
SWEET!

You all seem to be pretty learned, so i will just rapid fire the science stuff. Olbers' paradox, wave particle duality, quantum entanglement, virtual particles, quantum fluctuation, gravity, the fact that matter has mass, and the cosmic speed limit. There's more, but those were just on the top of my head.


Big bang, so everything came from nothing, ok, i can accept that but there should be equal parts matter and antimatter. But theres not, otherwise there'd just be energy left. then subatomic particles turned to atoms, then some atoms combine to more complex atoms blah blah blah (i know there's a lot more involved, just abbreviating) which explains basic elements. I don't get how anything biological came to be. But i can accept that it did just because of the quantity of matter.


Evolution. I accept that evolution is right, but there are a couple things in evolution i don't get. Possibly just ignorance on my behalf, but I've tried to find answers via research, and haven't found anything that popped out. I don't understand the jump from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. asexual reproduction is a far more efficient means of reproduction, evolutionary jump to sexual reproduction would be a step backwards.

Choice is another evolutionary step backwards. Millions of people decide not to reproduce. if were all steps on the evolutionary ladder, why did we develop a mind beyond instinct. Why are we self aware, why a conscious.

So the science stuff has explanations, theories, or we have no clue for why. Evolution there really is no natural necessity for it in the way the universe was made. Signs (for me) point to some kind of designer. I said before, i see god more in the unknown.
 
dynasty said:
SWEET!

You all seem to be pretty learned, so i will just rapid fire the science stuff. Olbers' paradox, wave particle duality, quantum entanglement, virtual particles, quantum fluctuation, gravity, the fact that matter has mass, and the cosmic speed limit. There's more, but those were just on the top of my head.


Big bang, so everything came from nothing, ok, i can accept that but there should be equal parts matter and antimatter. But theres not, otherwise there'd just be energy left. then subatomic particles turned to atoms, then some atoms combine to more complex atoms blah blah blah (i know there's a lot more involved, just abbreviating) which explains basic elements. I don't get how anything biological came to be. But i can accept that it did just because of the quantity of matter.


Evolution. I accept that evolution is right, but there are a couple things in evolution i don't get. Possibly just ignorance on my behalf, but I've tried to find answers via research, and haven't found anything that popped out. I don't understand the jump from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. asexual reproduction is a far more efficient means of reproduction, evolutionary jump to sexual reproduction would be a step backwards.

Choice is another evolutionary step backwards. Millions of people decide not to reproduce. if were all steps on the evolutionary ladder, why did we develop a mind beyond instinct. Why are we self aware, why a conscious.

So the science stuff has explanations, theories, or we have no clue for why. Evolution there really is no natural necessity for it in the way the universe was made. Signs (for me) point to some kind of designer. I said before, i see god more in the unknown.
Click to expand...

Were you being ironic?

If not, then I have just one response:

Evolution has no purpose. It just happens.

Purpose is something which springs from the mind (ergo a brain).
 
ynot said:
Theists say people have existed for around 6000 years. For over 4000 of those years they would have had to have been aware of their God without the “benefit” of what is written in The Bible.

So here's my challenge to Theists . . .

Present your belief that a God exists without referring to The Bible in any way.
Click to expand...

i am a theist.
i view the bible as a collection of writings about a particular line of believers, largely allegorical and mythological..
it has nothing whatever to do with my beliefs.
i believe the earth to be billions of years old.
i believe that the big bang was the initiating event in the creation of our universe.
i believe in evolution.
how do this fit with your post?
 
ynot said:
Oooops - Sorry about this thread. Rushed writing and posting it due to other pressing life issues and made a complete hash of it (premature articulation). :o

Let me start again - When I ask Theists (Christian) why they believe in a god they almost always use the Bible as their “proof“. People believed in a god before there was a Bible so it’s merely a “modern convenience” source of “proof”. I would like to know what God evidence Theists can provide without using The Bible or any historic literature in any way. Surely there would be more evidence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present creator of everything than ancient texts. If a God exists he/she/it would exist just as much today as thousands of years ago. Where/what is the current evidence a God Exists? Hope that makes more sense than the OP.
Click to expand...

he clarified here

bikerdruid said:
i am a theist.
i view the bible as a collection of writings about a particular line of believers, largely allegorical and mythological..
it has nothing whatever to do with my beliefs.
i believe the earth to be billions of years old.
i believe that the big bang was the initiating event in the creation of our universe.
i believe in evolution.
how do this fit with your post?
Click to expand...
 
dynasty said:
SWEET!

You all seem to be pretty learned, so i will just rapid fire the science stuff. Olbers' paradox, wave particle duality, quantum entanglement, virtual particles, quantum fluctuation, gravity, the fact that matter has mass, and the cosmic speed limit. There's more, but those were just on the top of my head.


Big bang, so everything came from nothing, ok, i can accept that but there should be equal parts matter and antimatter. But theres not, otherwise there'd just be energy left. then subatomic particles turned to atoms, then some atoms combine to more complex atoms blah blah blah (i know there's a lot more involved, just abbreviating) which explains basic elements. I don't get how anything biological came to be. But i can accept that it did just because of the quantity of matter.


Evolution. I accept that evolution is right, but there are a couple things in evolution i don't get. Possibly just ignorance on my behalf, but I've tried to find answers via research, and haven't found anything that popped out. I don't understand the jump from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. asexual reproduction is a far more efficient means of reproduction, evolutionary jump to sexual reproduction would be a step backwards.

Choice is another evolutionary step backwards. Millions of people decide not to reproduce. if were all steps on the evolutionary ladder, why did we develop a mind beyond instinct. Why are we self aware, why a conscious.

So the science stuff has explanations, theories, or we have no clue for why. Evolution there really is no natural necessity for it in the way the universe was made. Signs (for me) point to some kind of designer. I said before, i see god more in the unknown.
Click to expand...

I see all the things you mention (and other things of the sort) as evidence that we don't have all the answers to every question that anyone can imagine.

I don't think it is justified to say: "We don't know the answer, therefore God did it."

So I don't see how the existence of mysteries is evidence for God.
 
dynasty said:
Big bang, so everything came from nothing, ok, i can accept that but there should be equal parts matter and antimatter. But theres not, otherwise there'd just be energy left. then subatomic particles turned to atoms, then some atoms combine to more complex atoms blah blah blah (i know there's a lot more involved, just abbreviating) which explains basic elements. I don't get how anything biological came to be. But i can accept that it did just because of the quantity of matter.
Click to expand...
Physicsts don't worry about it. In fact most are quite confident the questions won't lead to god.

Evolution. I accept that evolution is right, but there are a couple things in evolution i don't get. Possibly just ignorance on my behalf, but I've tried to find answers via research, and haven't found anything that popped out. I don't understand the jump from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction. asexual reproduction is a far more efficient means of reproduction, evolutionary jump to sexual reproduction would be a step backwards.
Click to expand...
No, both have different advantages. It's like viruses. Some spread easily through the air but arent as lethal. Some are lethal but don't spread easily through the air. At first this wasn't well understood. Then a model was proposed and it worked so well scientists could predict changes to viruses based on rnvironment, Sexual reproduction protects against fast mutating pathogens since sexual reproduction shuffles gene alleles to alter frequency.

Choice is another evolutionary step backwards. Millions of people decide not to reproduce. if were all steps on the evolutionary ladder, why did we develop a mind beyond instinct. Why are we self aware, why a conscious.
Click to expand...
Have you seen the rate of population growth? We wharehouse people. We are in no danger of running out of people. Self awareness conveys an advantage. We can have an immersive model of our reality and we can see into the past and future to better adapt.

So the science stuff has explanations, theories, or we have no clue for why. Evolution there really is no natural necessity for it in the way the universe was made. Signs (for me) point to some kind of designer. I said before, i see god more in the unknown.
Click to expand...
God of the gaps. God used to exist in our ignorance of the stars, then the structure of the Atom, then DNA, the gaps are shrinking for god to hide in.
 
Last edited:
bikerdruid said:
i am a theist.
i view the bible as a collection of writings about a particular line of believers, largely allegorical and mythological..
it has nothing whatever to do with my beliefs.
i believe the earth to be billions of years old.
i believe that the big bang was the initiating event in the creation of our universe.
i believe in evolution.
how do this fit with your post?
Click to expand...
Great! - So there is more to your belief in a God than a book that may be a work of fiction.
So you should be able to "Present your belief that a God exists without referring to The Bible in any way." Why are you a Theist? What is your belief based on?
 
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