Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Sabretooth]

Structural engineer of 30-plus years ? Probably not.

You want to take a shot at explaining how these "pools" sustained themselves without a sufficient heat source?

 

[bill smith]

Meanwhile tons of structural engineers that don't agree with 911 kooks, are all wrong??

Come on now...

They didn't see the ,molten steel like Leslie did.

 

[sts60]

everyone agrees that jet fires could not melt steel...

Who cares? Firefighters (I'm one) and engineers (I'm one) both know that generally speaking, you don't need to melt a structural element to get it to fail.

so it was either aluminum or something that was melting the steel.

Or lead, or something else altogether.

Would you agree that if...if it was a conspiracy, a scenario...where they are in WTC 7...they look and see "Oh crap some charges are going off we have to bring it down." Then they do so. Does that not at least make some sense?

It not only makes no sense whatsoever, it is anti-sensical.

Why do you need to blow up the towers at all? Even if the towers had somehow managed to survive the impacts and fires without collapsing, the terrorists had already killed hundreds of people, caused hundreds of billions of dollars in economic damage, and rendered a big chunk of Lower Manhattan useless for an extended period of time. They had already destroyed a chunk of the Pentagon. They had destroyed four passenger aircraft and dealt a massive blow to the airline industry. What, if WTC 1 and 2 hadn't fallen, everybody would have just shrugged their shoulders and gone about their business? This stupid conspiracy "theory" requires the evil geniuses to raise their risk of exposure to the nth degree by adding an unbelievably complicated element requiring massive amounts of modifications to structural elements with nobody noticing, and gigantic amounts of explosives, or thermite, or nanothermite, or the use of nuclear bombs or magic space rays - the "truthers" can't agree. Because, of course, if you're going to commit a crime which will certainly get the death penalty if you're caught, is to make it as complicated and clue-intensive as posssible.

Didn't you ever stop to think how stupid this premise is?

And now you want to put the conspirators in a building which is well within the collapse zone of one of their targets? WTF for? So they can improvise in setting off all these tons and tons of Hushaboom that have been laboriously emplaced over months? And are set off how, exactly, in heavily-damaged, burning steel buildings, in an RF-dense environment?

I repeat, didn't you ever stop to think how stupid this premise is?

And then you're saying that they blew up WTC 7 to cover their tracks? I guess because destroying a 47-story skyscraper, thus drawing attention to a building most Americans had never heard of, is easier and more secure than using a couple of paper shredders and a degausser?

Didn't you ever stop to think how blazingly stupid this premise is?

 

[bill smith]

You want to take a shot at explaining how these "pools" sustained themselves without a sufficient heat source?

No problem. THere was a hell of a lot of it in the basements. Maybe 15,000 well insulated tons in fact. It would take say....100 days or more for that to cool off.Coincidentally about the same amount of time that the pile stayed hot.

 

[tmd2_1]

Let me recap, I am saying if...IF there was molten steel, found at anytime weeks after, hours after, it seriously diminishes the plausibility of the official story. What could possibly have gotten hot enough to melt steel? It isn't jet fuel. It isn't anything in the office environment, nothing I know of (that would be found at WTC) would get that hot. Did anyone look at the FEMA report I referenced, this is my guess as to what they are referring to when the eye witnesses say molten steel, except for those that were there in the first days of the collapse. But perhaps it could stay in a liquid form longer... I have no way of knowing how much thermite would have been used. I would guess a lot. Then there is that young girl reporting that fireman's steel tip boots are melting. You know boots that are built to withstand fires...and I'm sure made with at least a factor of 5 for your average fire. But they couldn't withstand this.

You can spin it anyway you like Gross lying is a big deal, and I believe everyone knows that.

I don't have anything more to add then what Cole has to say about thermite, believe it or don't believe it, to me he says it all.

 

[The Platypus]

They didn't see the ,molten steel like Leslie did.

You are placing your entire delusion on what a single man's spur of the moment description of something he thought he saw. And you grasp on that despite the reality to the contrary...

This is exactly what keeps con artists in business.

 

[tmd2_1]

to address sts60:

Yes I believe WTC 7 would be a good place. As I said they would have had to monitor..if charges were going off..if fires started to die down. After all this is what was happening before the South and 2nd tower hit went down, we couldn't have a building collapse, that the fires were put out could we. You ever wonder why WTC 7 is never mentioned? I'd say and it's a guess on my part 80% of Americans don't even know what building 7 is or that it come down that day. It even makes more sense if you believe 93 was headed there. Of course it would be going to hit the towers again...but seeing that they had fallen(coincidentally giving it a clear shot at WTC 7) it crashed into the next biggest building, because of fuel..time etc.

 

[BStrong]

Let me throw in my .02

My second mos was 89D - Explosive Ordnance Disposal - and to help things along, when exord was past it's expiration date, and I'm refering to straight explosive material - the approved method of destruction is burning the material.

The pre-planted explosive/thermite/thermate/nano-whatever CT is a no-goer from the get-go.

 

[bill smith]

You are placing your entire delusion on what a single man's spur of the moment description of something he thought he saw. And you grasp on that despite the reality to the contrary...

This is exactly what keeps con artists in business.

Nah..it's just another little link in a long chain of links.

 

[Sabretooth]

No problem. THere was a hell of a lot of it in the basements. Maybe 15,000 well insulated tons in fact. It would take say....100 days or more for that to cool off.Coincidentally about the same amount of time that the pile stayed hot.

Good. You really didn't answer that question....but whatever...

Follow up question: How many of the thousands of search and rescue and relief workers at GZ during those 99 days were incinerated, or burned badly even, by that 15,000 tons of that "well insulated" molten steel?

 

[The Platypus]

Nah..it's just another little link in a long chain of links.

So are all structural engineers capable of identifying molten materials with perfect accuracy, with just a look, or just this one guy Leslie? And if so, where and how do structural engineers get this ability from?

 

[WildCat]

Let me recap, I am saying if...IF there was molten steel, found at anytime weeks after, hours after, it seriously diminishes the plausibility of the official story.

No, it doesn't. And you have yet to explain how it does.

What could possibly have gotten hot enough to melt steel?

What melted steel?

It isn't jet fuel. It isn't anything in the office environment, nothing I know of (that would be found at WTC) would get that hot.

Have you ever been in a buiding after a fire? I have. I have seen steel beams twisted and warped from the heat. I have seen aluminum storm windows that melted, pooled up on the sill, and solidified. It appears you are profoundly ignorant of how hot normal builkding fires get.

Did anyone look at the FEMA report I referenced, this is my guess as to what they are referring to when the eye witnesses say molten steel, except for those that were there in the first days of the collapse. But perhaps it could stay in a liquid form longer... I have no way of knowing how much thermite would have been used. I would guess a lot. Then there is that young girl reporting that fireman's steel tip boots are melting. You know boots that are built to withstand fires...and I'm sure made with at least a factor of 5 for your average fire. But they couldn't withstand this.

Please calculate how much thermte you think was used, and ow this reaction wassustained for weeks on end. The problem is you sre so ignorant of the facts you don't even realize the colossal errors you are making.

You can spin it anyway you like Gross lying is a big deal, and I believe everyone knows that.

You have shown no evidence at all that Gross lied, because you can't show he was aware of reports of molten metal nor can you even show he should have cared.

 

[bill smith]

Good. You really didn't answer that question....but whatever...

Follow up question: How many of the thousands of search and rescue and relief workers at GZ during those 99 days were incinerated, or burned badly even, by that 15,000 tons of that "well insulated" molten steel?

They were 70 feet above the molten steel on the surface. Their boots were still melting weeks after the collapse so we have a fair idea how hot the pile still was. Some workers said 1500 degrees and it got hotter as they tried to dig down with the machines,

 

[Sabretooth]

Let me recap, I am saying if...IF there was molten steel...

There wasn't

...found at anytime weeks after, hours after, it seriously diminishes the plausibility of the official story.

There wasn’t…so why is this being discussed?

What could possibly have gotten hot enough to melt steel? It isn't jet fuel. It isn't anything in the office environment, nothing I know of (that would be found at WTC) would get that hot.

Again, you’re asking hypothetical questions to answer for something that didn’t happen or exist.

Did anyone look at the FEMA report I referenced, this is my guess as to what they are referring to when the eye witnesses say molten steel, except for those that were there in the first days of the collapse. But perhaps it could stay in a liquid form longer... I have no way of knowing how much thermite would have been used. I would guess a lot.

You’re first accurate guess in this thread so far…

Then there is that young girl reporting that fireman's steel tip boots are melting. You know boots that are built to withstand fires...and I'm sure made with at least a factor of 5 for your average fire. But they couldn't withstand this.

Say what? Let’s clarify a bit. Are you saying that the boots were melting, or the steel tips of the boots were melting? I’m a firefighter, and we are well informed that our boots are “heat-resistant”, not “fire-proof” or “heat-proof”. The soles of our boots get destroyed by heat, among other things, and the boots are replaced fairly often because of this. If the members of FDNY had fire and heat proof boots, please let me know where they picked them up because my department could be saving thousands of dollars per year.

You can spin it anyway you like Gross lying is a big deal, and I believe everyone knows that.

Who cares? His “lie” does not have any effect on the NIST report or anything else that happened on 9/11. Move on already.

I don't have anything more to add then what Cole has to say about thermite, believe it or don't believe it, to me he says it all.

You’re right…some people cannot be convinced. But, just so you know, that square peg is never going to fit in the round hole.

 

[tmd2_1]

As I said Gross either lied or was grossly negligent. Either one is quite bad. I just explained why melted steel is important. Nothing that was there or should have been could get hot enough to melt steel. No I have never been in a building after a fire...I have seen many pictures...never saw anything like that FEMA report. How much thermite was used...well I don't know a few thousand tons 5-15,000. How long would it last? Again I am not an explosives expert but from what I've read that amount of thermite would last..at least a few weeks. But the more important point is that IF (whenever it was found) there was molten steel, the official story is very difficult to reconcile. I am saying that girl is saying..the steel tips were melting or at least my thought is that is what she is implying. Is it true I don't know..that is what she said. She has no reason to lie.

 

[Sabretooth]

They were 70 feet above the molten steel on the surface. Their boots were still melting weeks after the collapse so we have a fair idea how hot the pile still was. Some workers said 1500 degrees and it got hotter as they tried to dig down with the machines,

No pics, links, or youtube vids, bill? You are slipping.

Molten steel cannot self-sustain itself, bill. Unless they^TM had big ass furnaces fired up down in the cellar, this is impossible. Next.

 

[Carll68]

Structural engineer of 30-plus years ? Probably not.

I agree, in his field of expertise, he likley won't be wrong. However, mettalurgy is not his field of expertise.

Speaking of his field of expertise, in which, as you put it, he has 30 plus years of it, and, in your own words, is probablly not wrong....what does he think about the collapse? Does he think it is a CD? What does he think of Gage?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAdcNEa6PTQ

Hmmm...Bill will not answer this, as doing so, using his own appeal to authoritian entity, debunks his argument from within.

How twooferish.

 

[bill smith]

No pics, links, or youtube vids, bill? You are slipping.

Molten steel cannot self-sustain itself, bill. Unless they^TM had big ass furnaces fired up down in the cellar, this is impossible. Next.

A well insulated pool of 15,000 tons will not cool quickly in ordinary terms. Cooling molten steel forms flecks on the surface that gradually join uo to form a skin. But the whole bulk has to radiate and transmit it's heat away. In such insulated conditions and with such poor conductors the heat could not quickly be wicked away. Ergo the 100 days.

 

[Sabretooth]

As I said Gross either lied or was grossly negligent. Either one is quite bad. I just explained why melted steel is important. Nothing that was there or should have been could get hot enough to melt steel. No I have never been in a building after a fire...I have seen many pictures...never saw anything like that FEMA report. How much thermite was used...well I don't know a few thousand tons 5-15,000. How long would it last? Again I am not an explosives expert but from what I've read that amount of thermite would last..at least a few weeks. But the more important point is that IF (whenever it was found) there was molten steel, the official story is very difficult to reconcile. I am saying that girl is saying..the steel tips were melting or at least my thought is that is what she is implying. Is it true I don't know..that is what she said. She has no reason to lie.

You watched your buddy Cole ignite thermite on youtube...notice anything?

It burns completely and rapidly. Once it starts burning, it's done in a matter of seconds. It's not a freakin' Coleman stove. You can't set-it and forget-it. It's not going to turn steel columns into a liquid and then sustain that heat to keep them molten. It doesn't happen. It can't happen. It is physically, 100%, impossible. Your Cole video is perfect evidence of this.

As for the steel tip of boots melting...this is also impossible without first incinerating the occupant of said boots. Your girl is a liar or stupid...it doesn't matter which one.

 

[Carll68]

A well insulated pool of 15,000 tons will not cool quickly in ordinary terms. Cooling molten steel forms flecks on the surface that gradually join uo to form a skin. But the whole bulk has to radiate and transmit it's heat away. In such insulated conditions and with such poor conductors the heat could not quickly be wicked away. Ergo the 100 days.

Bill or TMD..show me a video or picture of MOLTEN metal...then link me to the report that the material is stuctural steel, and not glass et.al.

Should be easy for you.