• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
how about the massive Pyroclastic clouds......

Pyro = fire
Clastic = Denoting rocks composed of broken pieces of older rocks.

A pyroclastic flow (also known scientifically as a pyroclastic density current[1]) is a fast-moving current of superheated gas (which can reach temperatures of about 1,000 °C (1,830 °F)) and rock (collectively known as tephra), which reaches speeds moving away from a volcano of up to 700 km/h (450 mph).[2] The flows normally hug the ground and travel downhill, or spread laterally under gravity. Their speed depends upon the density of the current, the volcanic output rate, and the gradient of the slope. They are a common and devastating result of certain explosive volcanic eruptions.

Pyroclastic flows are deadly, as Pompeii shows us quite well. The collapse created a cloud of dust; not unusual for a collapse of any kind, but never are any of these pyroclastic

what's sad is there are so many of you who lie......to distort the truth that so many of us see with our own eyes....
If you're wondering about the cold response you got from people including myself it's because you're repeating stuff that been said for 6 years or more. You're calling people idiots and liars using statements where you yourself have clearly jumped the gun. You have to remember it gets really, really, really, really, really tiring to have to tell the next person to bring this up, the same corrections we posted years ago.
 
Last edited:
Well I'm not sure that was an ambush question...that was an open forum..he had to know that truthers would be there.
Why do you think reports of molten metal are important? Why should Goss have been concerned?

Please answer this question.
 
I have never seen a satisfactory answer as to why the South tower fell first.

Then your research skills are lamentably awful. I suggest you go away and find out the explanation for this rather basic feature of 9/11, and don't bother anyone any more until you've found it. It's not our job to educate you, and you don't help your position by repeatedly advertising your ignorance.

Dave
 
Error of omission

He forgot that black smoke is only a product of oxygen starved fires!!!!!
 
Well I'm not sure that was an ambush question...that was an open forum..he had to know that truthers would be there.

Also notice...not just molten metal...molten steel...was the question asked. Sometimes I use the terms interchangeably, I apologize if I have done that.

Molten steel is obviously very important Jet fuel can not burn hot enough to melt it. But my point in this is not whether there really was molten steel or not, but that he was asked a question... what do you make of the reports/accounts of molten steel, and he said he was not aware of any such reports. (I am paraphrasing.)

The video shows there clearly were, you saw some by firefighters...who I'm sure have some knowledge on the subject. You may not think this is a big deal...I would differ with that. If he can't even tell the truth with something so small as if there actually being reports...why should we believe anything he or NIST says? Again this is a theoretical argument.

Also I forgot about this video..this is an extended and I think better version...more testimony of molten steel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SLIzSCt_cg


You are missing the BIG picture.

Even if there was proof of molten metal and/or steel, it does not automatically conclude that this was a product of NWO level shenanigans.

But, here's the problem, there is no proof of molten steel. However, the facts are that the fires burn plenty hot enough to melt aluminum and lead, and from what I understand, certain grades of sheet metal that, ZOMG(!), are used in the construction of filing cabinets, desks, shelving units, etc...all without the assistance of thermite.

You, my friend, are a victim of tunnel vision. You are so hell bend on proving what you saw on youtube is right, that you are intentionally ignoring the evidence, facts, and physics.

This makes you a truther.
 
Let me state this...my point in any of this is not whether or not there was molten steel...or molten anything for that matter. I am saying John Gross was asked a direct question (I'm paraphrasing) What about the reports of Molten Steel? He stood there and said I am aware of no eyewitness accounts of molten steel. When there clearly were (eyewitness accounts that is). It's a clear lie or he is grossly negligent. Given that he has lied on this subject, why should one believe anything he or for that matter NIST(him being the lead investigator) has to say?

Even though my point is not whether or not there was molten Steel, but John Gross lying about eyewitness accounts, I feel compelled to address that now. I don't know that if there was molten steel, I was not there. Two people that were there are
- Mark Lorieux of Controlled Demolition, Inc
- Peter Tully, President of Tully Construction
They both reported melted steel. These aren't your normal average day people, they are very well qualified, and would probably know molten steel beside that.

Also look at FEMA's WTC Building Performance Study APPENDIX C : Limited Metallurgical Examination pictures C1 and C2.
It sure looks like it was melted to me. I mean there are holes in the thing. Now I know the report never uses the word melted, and says the temperature only got to 1800 F. But those pictures tell a different story. Compare them to Jon Cole's work. It is very similar. In fact Cole has some nice comparisons in his own videos.

Does this mean Thermite was used...or that Steel was melted, I can't say that. It does mean that it sure could have been.

But again the main point to my posts is that John Gross was either caught lying or being grossly negligent.
 
Last edited:
My biggest problem with the whole NIST report, is they do exactly what many of you claim truthers do. They looked at one and only one explanation for the collapse..and worked backwards from that. Nothing else was even considered.

This is incorrect. Alternative theories were considered...probably at the insistence of truthers...and rightly dismissed.
 
Does this mean Thermite was used...or that Steel was melted, I can't say that. It does mean that it sure could have been.

If thermite was used, it was the stupidest method ever to secretly destroy a building. Look for the video where the Mythbusters try to burn through a car with thermite and you'll get a sense of how much it would take to bring down a building...even if there was a reliable way to burn through vertical supports, which there isn't. You can then ask yourself how a fully occupied building can be rigged with that much thermite with no one noticing.
 
Given that he has lied on this subject, why should one believe anything he or for that matter NIST(him being the lead investigator) has to say?

One should believe the analysis carried out by NIST because it agrees with the laws of physics and materials science, because its conclusions are backed up by reference to sound experimental work and theoretical analysis, and because other analyses by independent entities have reached similar conclusions. On should certainly not reject it in its entirety in favour of conclusions that violate the laws of acoustics, disagree with the convergence of evidence and, to the extent that they have actually been formulated, even disagree with themselves.

Two people that were there are
- Mark Lorieux of Controlled Demolition, Inc
- Peter Tully, President of Tully Construction
They both reported melted steel.

Showing your ignorance again. If you were familiar with the material, you'd at least know how to spell Loizeaux. If you'd actually taken the trouble to find out anything useful, you'd know that Loizeaux has stated that he never saw molten steel himself, but said that he'd been told by contractors that they'd seen molten steel.

These aren't your normal average day people, they are very well qualified, and would probably know molten steel beside that.

Why would a demolition engineer be familiar with molten steel, when no standard demolition processes create significant amounts of it? And why would the president of a construction company be sufficiently familiar with molten steel to identify it by sight alone? Construction companies buy steel; they don't usually forge it. I'd expect the president might have been shown round the occasional steelworks, but that hardly makes him an expert.

But again the main point to my posts is that John Gross was either caught lying or being grossly negligent.

Which, even if true, has nothing to do with the vast mountain of evidence that converges on our present understanding of the events of 9/11.

Dave
 
OPERATION NORTHWOODS WOULD HAVE BEEN PULLED OFF TOO IF IT WEREN'T FOR JFK....GOOGLE IT!

Operation Northwoods didn't involve killing anyone. Google it yourself.

how did all the concrete turn to dust...

Steven E. Jones said:
As we examined the WTC-debris sample, we found large chunks of concrete (irregular in shape and size, one was approximately 5cm X 3 cm X 3cm) as well as medium-sized pieces of wall-board (with the binding paper still attached). Thus, the pulverization was in fact NOT to fine dust, and it is a false premise to start with near-complete pulverization to fine powder (as might be expected from a mini-nuke or a “star-wars” beam destroying the Towers). Indeed, much of the mass of the MacKinlay sample was clearly in substantial pieces of concrete and wall-board rather than in fine-dust form...

how about the massive Pyroclastic clouds......

Use of the word "pyroclastic" by a 9/11 truther is a sure sign that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Dave
 
One should believe the analysis carried out by NIST because it agrees with the laws of physics and materials science, because its conclusions are backed up by reference to sound experimental work and theoretical analysis, and because other analyses by independent entities have reached similar conclusions. On should certainly not reject it in its entirety in favour of conclusions that violate the laws of acoustics, disagree with the convergence of evidence and, to the extent that they have actually been formulated, even disagree with themselves.



Showing your ignorance again. If you were familiar with the material, you'd at least know how to spell Loizeaux. If you'd actually taken the trouble to find out anything useful, you'd know that Loizeaux has stated that he never saw molten steel himself, but said that he'd been told by contractors that they'd seen molten steel.



Why would a demolition engineer be familiar with molten steel, when no standard demolition processes create significant amounts of it? And why would the president of a construction company be sufficiently familiar with molten steel to identify it by sight alone? Construction companies buy steel; they don't usually forge it. I'd expect the president might have been shown round the occasional steelworks, but that hardly makes him an expert.



Which, even if true, has nothing to do with the vast mountain of evidence that converges on our present understanding of the events of 9/11.

Dave

^ Exactly this.


Goalpost relocation to commence in 3...2...
 
This interview of Dr. Sobrosky should be clear enough.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Ffz0koJbI

Can you or he tie, with evidence any agents of Israel to the 9/11 attacks? Do you have Israeli agents placing explosives on the buildings? Do you have any agents staging hijackings of planes? I watched some of the rant but it's worth the time to see it all.
 
Last edited:
Operation Northwoods didn't involve killing anyone. Google it yourself....

Use of the word "pyroclastic" by a 9/11 truther is a sure sign that he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Dave

Good God, these still circulate?

Part of me really believes that there are few new truthers, that old folks come around and re-argue old, disproven talking points just to pretend that they still have traction.

For the "new" :rolleyes: member: Some search results to years-old threads on the topics, in order to help you follow Dave's advice and actually look up material to study:

Old talking points are old for a reason, and they're also disproven. I suggest to anyone reading this that the best course for action is not to simply trust that a truther site has everything right, but to look at all the evidence and arguments. Oftentimes, a conspiracy claim is flawed from the very initial statement ("turned to dust" being an excellent example of this). And if you do not look at these things critically, you're setting yourself up to go down a long path of failure to understand September 11th.

To our new poster: Dave here has hit it right on the head. When you bring up certain arguments, you've essentially proven that you in fact have not studied the topic correctly, that you've instead done nothing but read and internalized truther claims uncritically. Fix that. Double-check your claims against the forum archives, as well as the other resources given at the top of the subforum's front page. They've almost certainly already been discussed, and throwing old talking points on the wall will get you nowhere with us.
 
Last edited:
I am aware of what Mr. Loizeaux saw and did not see. You are right let's make sure if someone makes a type-o that must mean he knows nothing. I copied and pasted it from a place that had the spelling wrong, I don't know how to spell the guy's name off the top of my head. He said he saw a picture of molten steel this is what I was referring to...below is an e-mail attributed to him. Incidentally where I got the wrong spelling and this e-mail is a site that supports the official story...911 myths.

I never said, the NIST report should be dismissed entirely. Simply said one can make that argument. I mean it's right there...there's no "even if true" it is true. If you don't think this is important, I don't know what to say. I mean here is the leader of what is to be the official story caught lying, about that subject, and you don't think that's important?

I believe the FEMA report I referenced (while still lacking) is better then the NIST report. Just my opinion.

Here is a Jon Cole video. If you can look at this video, and honestly say thermite(let alone nano or super thermite) could not have been used, nothing I can say or anyone else for that matter will ever convince you. While you're there check out his other videos, quite interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d5iIoCiI8g&feature=related


"I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where you can get a copy.

Sorry I cannot provide personal confirmation. "
 
Last edited:
I am aware of what Mr. Loizeaux saw and did not see. You are right let's make sure if someone makes a type-o that must mean he knows nothing. I copied and pasted it from a place that had the spelling wrong, I don't know how to spell the guy's name off the top of my head. He said he saw a picture of molten steel this is what I was referring to...below is an e-mail attributed to him. Incidentally where I got the wrong spelling and this e-mail is a site that supports the initial story...911 myths.

Yes, and in fact the spelling error makes it rather embarrassingly obvious what you did. You read down the page far enough to find something that would confirm your prejudices, then you stopped reading, and cut-and-pasted the bit that appeared to say what you wanted to believe. And that's what I mean by poor research skills; you stop as soon as you've heard what you want to hear. If you'd read the rest of that page the first time, you'd not only have noticed the spelling mistake, but also the counter-arguments. But you didn't want to see them, so you didn't look.

I never said, the NIST report should be dismissed entirely.

Yes, in fact, you did. You said:

If he can't even tell the truth with something so small as if there actually being reports...why should we believe anything he or NIST says?

Clearly, you're suggesting that everything NIST says should not be believed. Don't you dismiss things you don't believe?

Actually, you're a truther, so maybe you don't.

I believe the FEMA report I referenced (while still lacking) is better then the NIST report. Just my opinion.

And a remarkably foolish one.

If you can look at this video, and honestly say thermite(let alone nano or super thermite) could not have been used, nothing I can say or anyone else for that matter will ever convince you.

Thermite could not feasibly have been installed in the WTC in sufficient amounts to cause it to collapse, given that nobody noticed any such installation taking place. It remains to be proven that thermite could have been used to cause the WTC to collapse, even though Jon Gold's experiments are a first step towards that; even that is a big step back from proving that thermite did cause it to collapse.

Which, of course, it didn't; thermite demolitions of high-rise steel structures are purely the product of Steven Jones's over-active imagination.

"I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where you can get a copy.

Sorry I cannot provide personal confirmation. "

And, once again, you've stopped reading once you saw the bit you wanted to. Did you get to the bit on that page where it says:

"To finish, none of these stories prove there was molten (as in liquid) steel at the WTC. There's no evidence temperatures were hot enough to produce that (whatever the energy source), and some of the stories claiming "molten steel" have built-in implausibilities. There was certainly glowing metal, but this only indicates temperatures within the range of a fire."

If you did, would you actually like to dispute that conclusion, rather than just cherry-picking the evidence? If you didn't, why not?

Dave
 
I'd say explosives with known properties consistent with those conspiracy theorists allege were used in 9/11.

[NoahFence]That's an assumption. Assumption is not proof![/NoahFence]

I'd probably have admitted thermite and derivatives thereof as well

[NoahFence]That's an assumption. Assumption is not proof![/NoahFence]

Any explosives you like.

[NoahFence]You allow assumptioms. You shouldn't! Assumptions are not proof![/NoahFence]

Direct impact.

[NoahFence]That's an assumption. Assumption is not proof![/NoahFence]

The explosives on the floors the planes hit, where the collapse started.

[NoahFence]That's an assumption. Assumption is not proof![/NoahFence]

At the very least, there have to be explosives there.

[NoahFence]That's an assumption. Assumption is not proof![/NoahFence]

Reaching the observed temperature of the fires on the impact floors of the WTC 1 & 2.

[NoahFence]That's an assumption. Assumption is not proof![/NoahFence]

I like how he gives you the broadest possible latitude to prove your claims, and all you do is whine about how broad his latitude is.

There is too much latitude. SezMe is not whining, he is pointing out how stupid that is. Disbelieve caught it, too.

You introduce half a dozend assumptions. I wonder if NF will call you on them!
Oops, NF doesn't!? Double standards, maybe? NF has twice as many standards as I have, NF wins.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom