Moderated MLM Crap :(

[Zelenius]

If I had told the opposite story about my uncle, if instead I said my uncle had made a ton of money by doing Amway for 4 years and retired early, I have a feeling that Icerat wouldn't be asking for any evidence.

 

[Almo]

If I had told the opposite story about my uncle, if instead I said my uncle had made a ton of money by doing Amway for 4 years and retired early, I have a feeling that Icerat wouldn't be asking for any evidence.

No, but NewtonTrino might.

 

[icerat]

If I had told the opposite story about my uncle, if instead I said my uncle had made a ton of money by doing Amway for 4 years and retired early, I have a feeling that Icerat wouldn't be asking for any evidence.

Sorry if I was misunderstood but I wasn't asking for evidence of your uncle's story. That kind of thing happens, I don't think there's any argument about that. The overly-materialistic approach you describe is (was?) particularly widespread in the group Newton Trino has experience with.

One thing though - except possibile brief period in the early 80s, if you're uncle was with Amway in the US, he wasn't buying tapes and books from Amway, as they don't sell them. They were probably from a 3rd party company.

 

[icerat]

The most important difference between buyers club points and Amway points is nobody is telling you that you’re going to be able to make a living by accumulating enough points from your grocery store. All you’re doing is saving a few dollars on fresh fruit, or whatever the product is, you’re not “building a business”.

Nobody (with any sense or brains) is telling you that in Amway either. Amway certainly isn't.

It seems like a lot of your arguments depend on changing definitions. Amway points are a commission structure when you want to tout it as an amazing business opportunity, but it’s just a “buyers club” incentive when the business opportunity fails.

Are you aware that you can buy stuff from that local store that gives you points and then resell it for a profit? Wow! It's a business opportunity AND a buyer's club!

Or are you now claiming that if I buy enough stuff from Amway, for my own use, that it qualified me for a volume rebate that I have earned a "commission"?

And when I get this coupon worth $5 from my local supermarket because I bought enough stuff to get points there, that it's a "commission"?

It's you that is making up definitions. The word commission doesn't even appear in Amway's business reference guide.

If XS could compete with Red Bull in the real world, do you think 1/3rd owner Mr. Duncan would be in bankruptcy?

What world do you think XS competes in, Narnia?

If your silly piece of lousy logic was even remotely true, wouldn't the other owners be filing bankruptcy too?

Not to mention the fact as you already pointed out, his shares of Sarsela are worth over $30 million. Seems XS Energy drinks is doing just fine.

Amazing the arrogance though. You haven't heard of it, therefore it can't compete

And yet nobody can seem to find this good Amway where people are not soaked for whatever they can afford (and sometimes can’t afford) in motivational CD’s, books and meetings and where people who enter the program stand a better than even chance of making a decent income at it. If this fantasy Amway exists, maybe you need to provide evidence of it.

All ready provided you with a multitude of links. How many have you followed? How many of the thousands of names I gave you have you tried to contact? Have you even made an effort to talk with any IBOs on Amway Talk

Or do you insist on keeping yourself locked in the cupboard and claiming the sun hasn't come up because you can't see it?

You ignore any evidence I bring to the table. Would you listen to a Professor of business, past editor of Harvard Business Review, and past head of one of Europe's #1 business schools, ESSEC?

Here's what I had to say about Amway.

I know, I know, it's got several years research behind it and is an actual book by an expert. You'd much rather prefer to read a few anonymous bloggers. Deal with it.

Not at all a comparable analogy.

Why not?

If I take a job in commission-only sales with no draw (and I have spent years living on a compensation program like that) it’s very relevant to learn that 99.9% of the people taking that position don’t hit the commission, and most of those that do only earn token commissions.

Sure. It's also relevant to know what the entry requirement were to take the job and what was the difference between those who made money and those who didn't.

Or is that irrelevant to you?

Look, “immersion courses” where the whole family travels for a month to France or Spain cost money. And the truth is Amway eats up spare time, it doesn’t create it.

Building an Amway business certainly eats up spare time. Arguing about Amway on the internet even more so!

But I've done next to nothing to build an Amway business for a decade. And I'm still getting paid! People I introduced to the products keep buying the products, and I keep getting a percentage. How do you explain that?

Then show us some evidence. I find your anecdotes unconvincing.

I've supplied you with the names of thousands. How many have you contacted? Or here's one. Go look up Walter Bass in Michigan. He died in the earlier 80s. He was recognized as a new Founders Emerald in the late 90s. How'd he do that exactly?

“Cahsflow problems” means you don’t have the income to support your basic needs plus your debt, but often the term is used as an excuse to cover bad money-management.

No argument there. This is pretty clearly a case of bad money management, given his assets outstrip his debt 7 to 1.

The difference is Bill Gates, John McEnroe and others didn’t get into their business expressly for the purpose of freeing up time to spend with their families.

(1) how do you know?
(2) how is it different?

 

[icerat]

I think that if you want to tout a guys credentials as part of your argument then it's certainly legitimate to look at what those credentials are, don't you?

I cited his credentials because you claimed he was only making money because he learned how to promote "self help" materials. Clearly that's not the case.

Please provide some evidence he is unqualified for his position with CBS.

Re the masters in psych, behavioural economics is a huge and growing field. There's even a Journal of Economic Psychology. I frankly am quite surprised that you think psychology and economics/finance is a weird combination.

 

[Joecool]

Quote:
Then show us some evidence. I find your anecdotes unconvincing.

I've supplied you with the names of thousands. How many have you contacted? Or here's one. Go look up Walter Bass in Michigan. He died in the earlier 80s. He was recognized as a new Founders Emerald in the late 90s. How'd he do that exactly?

Walter Bass' Granddaughter "Deb" took over the business. She said it was extremely hard work for a moderate income and her business was more about sales than about recruiting. Running that Amway business was basically a full time endeavor. She said the monthly income was somewhat small and that her emerald bonus had to be budgeted out over the year. When she finally sold the business, she said it was exteremely difficult with all the red tape and she only got something like $50 K for it.

 

[Joecool]

What evidence have you shown and what claims have you proven?

What specific claims have we/I made that you want evidence for?

Personally I think part of the evidence here is the multitude of people who have come forward with their stories. Again, I've personally been involved and seen information on tools profit with my own eyes. Others here have been involved in various capacities. You admittedly have a low level of success in amway and aren't in a position to have personal knowledge about high level profits. What else is there to say other than caveat emptor?

Icerat is in denial and he wears rose colored glasses. Amway's own numbers condemn the business if someone bothers to actually look them up.

The average "active" IBO earns just over $100 a month. That's gross income and doesn't factor in any expenses such as gas money, functions and other materials heaped upon the IBOs.

We also know that many IBOs never do a thing.

We know that attaining the level of platinum occurs in less than one half of one percent of IBOs amd the reward for being in that top percentile is $30,000 to $40,000 gross income.

And even those who may attain some level, have difficulty maintaining the level because of attrition.

This business not only eats up a lot of downline resources, but it takes up a lot of people's time. I have seen countless numbers of testimony where the bigger issue was lost time. Time away from family and friends, which ironically, is why many of these same folks join Amway to begin with.

 

[Mycroft]

Sorry if I was misunderstood but I wasn't asking for evidence of your uncle's story. That kind of thing happens, I don't think there's any argument about that. The overly-materialistic approach you describe is (was?) particularly widespread in the group Newton Trino has experience with.

So the problem with that group is that it was overly materialistic? Can you elaborate on how that distinguishes it from other groups?

One thing though - except possibile brief period in the early 80s, if you're uncle was with Amway in the US, he wasn't buying tapes and books from Amway, as they don't sell them. They were probably from a 3rd party company.

Do you really think the important issue here is where the tapes and books came from? It seems to be the salient issue here is the guy was pitched on a business opportunity, and instead was bled dry on the inspirational materials. Who actually produced the materials seems irrelevant, they were still sold to him by his upline.

 

[Joecool]

Ever since Icerat started to claim that Network 21 was so pure, I started to save some of the testimony I came across. Keep in mind that some eyewitness accounts take place in setting with thousands in attendance:

Source: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/archive/index.php/t-44786.html

My wife got a call this Monday from a friend of her that wants her to go with to a "business opportunity". The Friend didn't say what about the "business opportunity". I told her to cancel ... no way I'm going.

How I hate this network 21/Amway etc craptastic "business opportunity "

A friend of mine told me about this "business opportunity" 4 years ago. Didn't tell me what about, but I trust him. Went to the meeting. 2 Hours of crap. I want the 2 hours of my life back. They try to tell you how bad your work is, and how your job suck. How they will make you a million.

Few months later he invited myself and the wife to a presentation thing. Was at carnival city. Paid frieking R80 per head to get in. It was Amway again. Now they told everyone how this 1 couple is going to Disney world. I mean 1 couple, out of probably thousand + people there. And its only the highest ranking person in the pyramid scheme.

...

N21 is Amway. Don't let anyone try and bulldust that it isn't. Think of it this way - Amway is a pyramid scheme given some legitimacy by dancing around the definitions of ponzi scheme. What has happened is some guy at the top has created his own pyramid and called it network 21. The scheme makes money for the peeps at the top by selling motivational material to its own structures, or by making money out of the shipping charges.

I suppose there is nothing really wrong with the products but they are most certainly not cheap.

They lie to you - it is always a business opportunity and the person calling you could never do justice to the concept so come along to the meeting. At the meeting no mention will be made of Amway until the end and then it'll be glossed over. They'll talk about living off an asset - what asset? There is absolutely no capital whatsoever. They tell you that you can retire but if you don't participate your membership terminates. Sorry, I'd rather buy houses.

Source: http://www.amquix.info/feedback/feedback_jul07.html

My wife and I were in Network 21 (founded by Jim & Nancy Dornan) a few years back, and we too were duped by the cheap glamour and promise of a better life. We were in for about 3 years, and on all the required education materials from the get-go -- tapes, books, meetings, as per usual -- to the tune of $3,500 per year. But in all that time we signed up, count them, 2 people. "2 people?! That pathetic!" And yes it is... but my problem was from day-1 was this nagging little voice
in my head -- the one telling me I can't commit to lying to my friends and perfect strangers:

"It's not Amway"
"10-15 hours per week tops"
"$200 is all it'll ever cost"
"A sure-fire vehicle to financial security & freedom"

Edited by Locknar: 

<SNIP>, breach of rule 4.

Anyway enough about me... Scott after reading the feedback I noticed a common phrase used by every Amquix pollyanna who makes a comment on
this website:

http://www.amquix.info/amway_n21_southafrica.html

Edited by Locknar: 

<SNIP>Breach of rule 4 removed; additionally, please ensure you properly cite/reference material quoted from other sites.

Source: http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/nework21.htm
Network 21 is one of the "motivational organisations" for Amway. My experience with their distributors is that they turn up for the plan showing with a professional salesman from Network 21 who runs the presentation. Any questions about Amway are answered with lies. I was told several times in the last session I endured that they had a casual relationship with Amway (the words used were "Amway is one of our suppliers") but the real link was continually denied. This is symmetrical with the way that Amway employees lie about their knowledge of the motivational organisations like Network 21 and International Dreambuilders.

 

[NewtonTrino]

BTW I regularly drink red bull, rockstar and other energy drinks. I think XS is super gross.

 

[Mycroft]

I cited his credentials because you claimed he was only making money because he learned how to promote "self help" materials. Clearly that's not the case.

Not quite what I claimed. I said he learned self-promotion from Amway, that he saw the money went to the person selling the materials. I'm sure he still would have made a living if he hadn't learned that.

Please provide some evidence he is unqualified for his position with CBS.

The qualifications for being a talking head are that you look reasonably good on camera and are fairly articulate. I have never expressed any doubt that he holds these qualifications.

Re the masters in psych, behavioural economics is a huge and growing field. There's even a Journal of Economic Psychology. I frankly am quite surprised that you think psychology and economics/finance is a weird combination.

So is this guy involved in behavioral economics or economic psychology? Are these disciplines useful in managing other people's money? Or are they primarily involved in marketing?

 

[Mycroft]

Something I found at one of Icerat’s websites. A description of life at Amway:


”On the last day of the month, the organization would have a "push order" to get someone upline over the top. Buy a water treatment system, buy pots/pans, etc. Put a 25 percent bonus on a big ticket item. Start at the bottom. Once you get that order, you call the next one up. "You are only 100 PV from the next bonus bracket" .... there's another $200 order. Then the next person upline "You should buy those pots and pans. They will make you a new 1500 PVer" “

So in normal life I buy a water treatment system when I decide I need one, which so far means I have a brita filter I run tap water through. I buy pots and pans when I decide I need new ones, which last time I did that was sometime before I got married so sometime between 10 and 15 years ago and they’re still fine. But if I join Amway and work hard at the system, I can get high-pressure phone calls from my upline telling me to buy stuff now so I can make some arbitrary goal in “building my business”.

Keep in mind the context of this quote isn’t even being critical of Amway. It’s just describing how it goes.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Basically build a big pyramid and stuff whatever product you can down it using whatever works the best. Of course the "tools" are more profitable than regularly products and they are self-reinforcing (e.g. all the tools do is try to get you to buy more tools).

 

[icerat]

So the problem with that group is that it was overly materialistic?

No, it's just one of several issues.

Can you elaborate on how that distinguishes it from other groups?

Well for a start a lot of people (myself included) find that approach incredibly crass and vulgar. It has the additional problem of promoting an "all or nothing" type of view, as if making a few extra hundred bucks a month for a kid's piano lessons by holding make-up parties isn't a worthy goal. This then inevitable leads to all sorts of other problems. For example most of the 3rd party "tools" are not relevant to someone with that goal. So first you're alienating folk like me. Then you're pressuring people to buy stuff they don't need in order to try and motivate them to work towards a goal they don't want - which is a pretty predictable recipe for ending up with a bunch of people who've spent a lot of money and are understandably p***ed off.

The ethics and morality of it aside, it's a pretty dumb way to create a long term successful business, too.

Do you really think the important issue here is where the tapes and books came from? It seems to be the salient issue here is the guy was pitched on a business opportunity, and instead was bled dry on the inspirational materials. Who actually produced the materials seems irrelevant, they were still sold to him by his upline.

Sorry but you seem to be contradicting yourself here. You're saying that where the tapes and books came from isn't important, the important bit is where they came from?

Yes, I do think it is important to understand that both the products his uncle was spending money on were (a) not promoted by Amway and (b) not purchased from Amway. Particularly when we're trying to assess Amway as a whole, rather than how individual groups within Amway may operate.

 

[icerat]

Something I found at one of Icerat’s websites. A description of life at Amway:

So this is "life a Amway", when in that same thread various IBOs are decrying that practice. Nobody there supported it.

So why would you use it as an example of how Amway works, when all these people working with Amway say it's dumb?

So in normal life I buy a water treatment system when I decide I need one, which so far means I have a brita filter I run tap water through. I buy pots and pans when I decide I need new ones, which last time I did that was sometime before I got married so sometime between 10 and 15 years ago and they’re still fine. But if I join Amway and work hard at the system, I can get high-pressure phone calls from my upline telling me to buy stuff now so I can make some arbitrary goal in “building my business”.

Only if you've (a) got an idiot for an upline and (b) are stupid enough to listen to them

Keep in mind the context of this quote isn’t even being critical of Amway. It’s just describing how it goes.

Keep in mind that you either misread or are being deliberately misleading. You're right that it's not being critical of Amway per se - but the "context" is highly critical of that practice.

 

[icerat]

Not quite what I claimed. I said he learned self-promotion from Amway, that he saw the money went to the person selling the materials. I'm sure he still would have made a living if he hadn't learned that.

Right. So he made money without selling materials. Some decades after leaving Amway he wrote a book and made money from that. He also wrote a column explaining what he learned out of Amway (which wasn't to write books)

You dismiss all of this and just go with your little worldview.

So is this guy involved in behavioral economics or economic psychology? Are these disciplines useful in managing other people's money? Or are they primarily involved in marketing?

all of the above, plus of course giving advice isn't just about managing other people's money.

 

[Mycroft]

So this is "life a Amway", when in that same thread various IBOs are decrying that practice. Nobody there supported it.

So why would you use it as an example of how Amway works, when all these people working with Amway say it's dumb?

For starters, "all these people" seem to be one person, you. "IBOfightback" is one of your handles, isn't it? Others seem to affirm the practice.

It is easier coming from a third party, escpecially if you get a call from the upline. This would sound lots better and generate a lot more PV:

Linda Harteis: "We are so excited about what is happening down in your group." (Wife is waving arms motioning to her husband... "OMG!! Linda Harteis is on the phone!")

Linda continues: "Tonight is very special. We are going to break some new pins tonight, and we want you to be one of them. Let's see where you are on the bonus schedule. You are only a few hundred PV away from 1500. Let's see what we can do to get you to the next bonus level."

Low level ibo reaches for the credit card.

Keep in mind that you either misread or are being deliberately misleading. You're right that it's not being critical of Amway per se - but the "context" is highly critical of that practice.

No, it's just describing how someone may have reached a pin level quickly.

 

[Mycroft]

Right. So he made money without selling materials. Some decades after leaving Amway he wrote a book and made money from that. He also wrote a column explaining what he learned out of Amway (which wasn't to write books)

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Certainly he's made money in his career, and he's sold books. I fail to see which assertions of mine you are refuting here.

all of the above, plus of course giving advice isn't just about managing other people's money.

Given that he seems to be busy promoting his books, working as a columnist and talking head, running a business and continuing his education in psychology, I find the assertion that he's also doing work in the fields of behavioral economics and economic psychology a dubious claim that requires evidence.

 

[Mycroft]

No, it's just one of several issues.



Well for a start a lot of people (myself included) find that approach incredibly crass and vulgar. It has the additional problem of promoting an "all or nothing" type of view, as if making a few extra hundred bucks a month for a kid's piano lessons by holding make-up parties isn't a worthy goal...

Stop.

Realistically, if that's all someone wants then a part time job even at low wage gets you there. Minimum wage just one day a week comes to about $250 a month. That's with nothing to buy, no meetings to attend, no points system to track, and no necessity of annoying your friends and family selling vitamins and soaps.

This then inevitable leads to all sorts of other problems. For example most of the 3rd party "tools" are not relevant to someone with that goal. So first you're alienating folk like me. Then you're pressuring people to buy stuff they don't need in order to try and motivate them to work towards a goal they don't want - which is a pretty predictable recipe for ending up with a bunch of people who've spent a lot of money and are understandably p***ed off.

The ethics and morality of it aside, it's a pretty dumb way to create a long term successful business, too.

I would agree, which is why Amway is not a good business model.

Sorry but you seem to be contradicting yourself here. You're saying that where the tapes and books came from isn't important, the important bit is where they came from?

I don't see a significant difference between the tapes, books and other materials being produced by Amway directly or being produced by a private company started by the Diamond pin. My understanding is that they are typically produced and sold by the Diamond, correct?

 

[icerat]

For starters, "all these people" seem to be one person, you. "IBOfightback" is one of your handles, isn't it? Others seem to affirm the practice.

Quoting a made up conversation (he even describes it as a "guess") involving people kicked out of Amway given as an example of how an experience from more than two decades ago could have happened is someoby "affirming the practice"?

Good grief.

Or are you just saying it's confirmation it can or did occur?

Was that ever in dispute?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Certainly he's made money in his career, and he's sold books. I fail to see which assertions of mine you are refuting here.

That he ended up as a financial advisor, author, and CBS columnist and talking head because -

The lessons he took away are the lessons that make his career today; how to be wealth guru. He purchased the tools, went to the meetings, and quickly understood that the people making the money were the ones selling the tools and holding the meetings. So he left Amway, and is now the author of several self-help books and is able to market himself very well.

Given that he seems to be busy promoting his books, working as a columnist and talking head, running a business and continuing his education in psychology, I find the assertion that he's also doing work in the fields of behavioral economics and economic psychology a dubious claim that requires evidence.

I read that as a tautology - "Given he's working in behavioural economics, I find the assertion he's working in behavioural economics a dubious claim".

Anyway, it's a silly discussion.

Stop.

Realistically, if that's all someone wants then a part time job even at low wage gets you there. Minimum wage just one day a week comes to about $250 a month. That's with nothing to buy, no meetings to attend, no points system to track, and no necessity of annoying your friends and family selling vitamins and soaps.

So what's your point? You can make that money with "nothing to buy, no meetings to attend, no points system to track, no necessity of annoying your friends and family selling vitamins and soaps." in Amway too.

If you want to argue straw men, argue them with yourself and save your time typing and my time reading.

I would agree, which is why Amway is not a good business model.

non sequitur, indeed so much so it should be in capital letters.

I don't see a significant difference between the tapes, books and other materials being produced by Amway directly or being produced by a private company started by the Diamond pin. My understanding is that they are typically produced and sold by the Diamond, correct?

Depends what you're material talking about and in which country.

In any case yet another non sequitur.

Amway Wiki currently lists some 65 of these types of companies, and there's undoubtedly many more. Taking material from one of them and claiming it applies to all of them, and not only all the people who utilise those companies, but the many who do not, is irrational.