Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Craig4]

To Robert S. Mueller III

George W. Bush is now gone , where are all the security camera recordings?

Your time is up Mr. Mueller, which side are you on?

I don't think he's a member here.

 

[Sabretooth]

Witnesses said they saw Molten metal.

“Metal” is not the same as “Steel”.

And it still means nothing. Even if I were to concede to the presence of “molten metal”, it does not prove the existence of thermite or demolition materials.

If you want to see how thermite could have worked..check out Jon Cole's videos. He does a much better job of explaining it then I will.

Yeah….we’ve all seen it. You’re still missing that thing called “evidence” at the WTC site.

Trust me I understand everything I read, and videos I watch.

Again Cole says like I do..could have been used...not that it was...but that it can not be ruled out.

Yes, it can be ruled out…solely for the lack of evidence of its presence. No blinding flashes. No prepped or cut beams. No scorch marks. Etc.

If you want to say planes don't usually fly into building then what about WTC 7. No plane...in essence that was no different then office fires in the past. Yet it some how fell. Don't say it was because of damages from the North tower...you know as well as I do...it was not that damaged, certainly not damaged enough to fall. How could it damage it's core columns.

Learn how to use the forum search function.

Also, for someone who claims to have read “most of the NIST report”, this is a rather curious question.

Again I am not a truther at least not in the way you use that term.

You’re short posting history suggests otherwise.

I thought the original question was asking for a way to connect all the dots. I provided it, what I believe is a plausible logical reason for what happened that day.

The OP didn’t ask for a plausible reason, he asked for evidence. How are you not understanding the difference? Had he wanted a story, all one needs to do is review any one of the hundreds of other threads in the 9/11 subforum.

Did it happen? I can't tell you..I will say it could happen. It explains a lot of things those who support the official theory point out, at the same explains holes in the official story. In my estimation looking at all the evidence I have seen, this is where the preponderance of the evidence lies. That doesn't mean I believe the official story is totally impossible. Another mistake I think is made by certain people...is that people want there to be a conspiracy. I don't think that is true, in fact quite the opposite. Just pretend for one second in your minds that there is a conspiracy. Think about what that means? Think about how scary that is....do you think people want that? I know I don't...I don't anyone else that does either. There may be some that want to feel smart...or think they are in on something I suppose...but those type of people will not put in the type of effort...that many good intentioned people have.

If there were evidence of a conspiracy, I’d happily tag along with that line of thinking…but we don’t have any. I can’t live in your “what if” world full of nonsense questions, lies, misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the facts. Evidence, physics, reality, and personal experience suggest that the Official Narrative of 9/11 is 99.9% accurate. That’s good enough for me.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Ok in the essence to save typing...I won't answer what I have answered previously about this theory. Who did it? Most likely a criminal cabal in our country as well as Israel, would my lead suspects. Please keep in mind in no way am I saying Jews, there were those involved who were certainly not Jewish. As I said the upper echelons of the Bush admin planned an operation Northwoods type operation at the pentagon. Others had something more sinister in mind. Taking advantage of war game scenarios, needed to make sure the operation at the pentagon was a success. The number of people involved would be a lot the pentagon...but a few for the more sinister plot. You could get a lot of people to sign up to help fake the taking of lives, but to actually take lives is another story. How the pentagon was done...I can't be 100% sure, there are many theories. Some have suggested a flyover, but I can't be sure. There is also Lloyde England's admission that "it was planned" What it all means I can't be sure. It would seem whatever hit the pentagon was not piloted by human to keep a plane off the ground at the same time low enough that it would not impact the roof (remember the roof collapsed later after impact) is possible...but would be very difficult even for experienced pilots. As far as the WTC is concerned...I've stated that CD is not necessary for alternative theories to be correct. I think it's most probable but not necessary. As I said pin point accuracy of where the planes would hit...charges placed where they would not be affected by impact, is one scenario that could have happened. Most likely the planes were remote controlled. How this happened again I can't be sure. The hijackers/hijackings could have been real, and then remote control took over by software put in the A/C. As far as who planted explosives in the WTC...if there were...it would most likely be Mossad agents. Again please don't mis-understand me...if they did plant explosives in the buildings, they did it because they were brain-washed into thinking something like this needed to happen for the survival of Israel...that Israel was at risk of losing their biggest and to some extent their only ally. Remote control detonation would be the most likely, the charges being placed in elevator shafts. How long did it take, whatever happened that day..was planned for years. Obviously I would suggest that security at the WTC and the Airports used...would have to be involved in some way. As to WTC 7 I already gave a suggestion as to the reason that would be given why flight 93 would have flown into it. WTC 7 could have been the command center for the whole operation...and needed to come down, along with other reasons.

2006 called, they want their lame factoids back.

 

[dafydd]

I don't think he's a member here.

That wouldn't occur to a truther.

 

[tmd2_1]

Really no flashes? Right from the NIST report.
NIST NCSTAR 1-5a
"An unusual flame is visisble within this fire. In the upper photograph a very bright white flame stands out."

But I'm sure I am taking it out of context, or somehow just mis-understanding what they wrote...or what you wrote. I gave evidence for why I thought 93 was shot down..scattered debris...rolling debris is almost impossible due to the vertical descent as evidence the size of the impact crater. I can't give proof for everything...as I said it depends on what one will accept as proof. There is evidence...for everything I said. It doesn't lack logic. Thermite can not be ruled out, again I will refer you to Cole.

 

[Disbelief]

This challenge is nonsense. For several reasons.

First, you use the word "PROVE" (in caps, no less). How could anyone "prove" such a claim? Please provide a process that you would accept as providing proof.

Second, what "explosives" are to be used in the proof? Why?

Third, what "impact" should be used to examine survivability? Direct impact? Two floors down? Ten floors down?

Fourth, what "fire" constitutes the basis for the proof? How hot? How long? What is the basis for your answers?

----------------------

In short, the OP provides a challenge that, in any other area, would be immediately rejected by JREF skeptics as meaningless. Why is this thread different?

Agreed. This is no different than the challenge cmatrix set forth. While I understand teh sentiment, the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[NoahFence]

Really no flashes?

very bright white flame

it's like you people don't even try anymore.

 

[tmd2_1]

I'm sure that white flame wasn't a flash you're right. Here try this

NIST NCSTAR 1-5
Almost immediately a bright spot appeared at the top of the Window on the 80th floor.
That bright spot wouldn't be a flash...has to be something else.

 

[000063]

This challenge is nonsense. For several reasons.

First, you use the word "PROVE" (in caps, no less). How could anyone "prove" such a claim? Please provide a process that you would accept as providing proof.

I'd say explosives with known properties consistent with those conspiracy theorists allege were used in 9/11. I'd probably have admitted thermite and derivatives thereof as well, just 'cause I think it'd be a hoot.

Second, what "explosives" are to be used in the proof? Why?

Any explosives you like.

Third, what "impact" should be used to examine survivability? Direct impact? Two floors down? Ten floors down?

Direct impact. The explosives on the floors the planes hit, where the collapse started. At the very least, there have to be explosives there.

Fourth, what "fire" constitutes the basis for the proof? How hot? How long? What is the basis for your answers?

Reaching the observed temperature of the fires on the impact floors of the WTC 1 & 2.

In short, the OP provides a challenge that, in any other area, would be immediately rejected by JREF skeptics as meaningless. Why is this thread different?

I like how he gives you the broadest possible latitude to prove your claims, and all you do is whine about how broad his latitude is.

 

[000063]

Then I'll have to be convinced they could survive the aircraft impact.

You forgot "how the bad guys know none of the beams thrown clear out the building by the impact would be the ones with explosives/incendiaries on them".

And secondly, of course, there's the probblem of recursion. Where was the destruction of WTC7 controlled from, and why couldn't the rest of the operation have been controlled from there too?

It's destroyed bases all the way down.

 

[Sunstealer]

Witnesses said they saw Molten metal. If you want to see how thermite could have worked..check out Jon Cole's videos. He does a much better job of explaining it then I will. Trust me I understand everything I read, and videos I watch. Again Cole says like I do..could have been used...not that it was...but that it can not be ruled out. If you want to say planes don't usually fly into building then what about WTC 7. No plane...in essence that was no different then office fires in the past. Yet it some how fell. Don't say it was because of damages from the North tower...you know as well as I do...it was not that damaged, certainly not damaged enough to fall. How could it damage it's core columns. Again I am not a truther at least not in the way you use that term. Maybe a questioner is what I would call myself. I thought the original question was asking for a way to connect all the dots. I provided it, what I believe is a plausible logical reason for what happened that day. Did it happen? I can't tell you..I will say it could happen. It explains a lot of things those who support the official theory point out, at the same explains holes in the official story. In my estimation looking at all the evidence I have seen, this is where the preponderance of the evidence lies. That doesn't mean I believe the official story is totally impossible. Another mistake I think is made by certain people...is that people want there to be a conspiracy. I don't think that is true, in fact quite the opposite. Just pretend for one second in your minds that there is a conspiracy. Think about what that means? Think about how scary that is....do you think people want that? I know I don't...I don't anyone else that does either. There may be some that want to feel smart...or think they are in on something I suppose...but those type of people will not put in the type of effort...that many good intentioned people have.

Do you know what a wall of text is? If you want people to read your drivel at least break it up into paragraphs.

Your formatting simply makes you look like a ranting nutter.

 

[Sabretooth]

I'm sure that white flame wasn't a flash you're right. Here try this

NIST NCSTAR 1-5
Almost immediately a bright spot appeared at the top of the Window on the 80th floor.
That bright spot wouldn't be a flash...has to be something else.

Try reading the whole excerpt:

Almost immediately a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor four windows removed from the east edge, and a glowing liquid began to pour from this location. This flow lasted approximately 4s before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location prior to the collapse of the tower. Several were accompanied be puffs of dust and smoke that were now occurring frequently. The composition of the flowing material can only be hypothesized, but it is considered likely that it was molten aluminum that came from aircraft debris located immediately about on the 81st floor and had been heated by the fire burning on that floor.

So, now, based on the entire description, what's more likely?:

1. A bright spot formed as melted aluminum pooled into the corner of the floor.

-or-

2. Thermite.

 

[dafydd]

Do you know what a wall of text is? If you want people to read your drivel at least break it up into paragraphs.

Your formatting simply makes you look like a ranting nutter.

I tried to put it more politely earlier on but it does make him look like a crank with a minimal education.

 

[DeathDart]

I don't think he's a member here.

Depends on whether or not my surveillance sends in their reports daily.

 

[seewithyourowneyes]

All 3 building were blown up!

WTC 1&2 ALONG WITH WTC 7 WERE ALL DESTROYED ACCORDING TO A MASTER PLAN....OPERATION NORTHWOODS WOULD HAVE BEEN PULLED OFF TOO IF IT WEREN'T FOR JFK....GOOGLE IT! For those of you who don't have a clue as to how the buildings were constructed.....both wtc 1&2 had massive central core's...(which Andrew Farmer states were) made up of stairwells and elevators) correct...but he failed to mention the 47 massive central columns in each building....how did the simply fall down.....????how did all the concrete turn to dust...how does human bone turn to dust? how about the massive Pyroclastic clouds......what's sad is there are so many of you who lie......to distort the truth that so many of us see with our own eyes....

 

[SezMe]

You and any other truther can do so as well.

Recalibrate yourself. I'm not a truther. I'll give JREF $1000 if you can find any post from me in which I question the standard explanation.

My response to your OP actually had little to do with 911. It was the ill-defined nature of your challenge that I ... challenged. As Oystein and others have noted, it is insufficiently posed to actually serve as a test. If someone did meet the challenge, you could reject it by stating it didn't meet your conditions because those conditions are not clear and specific. You would always have wriggle room.

THAT is the problem, not the truther aspect.

 

[DGM]

WTC 1&2 ALONG WITH WTC 7 WERE ALL DESTROYED ACCORDING TO A MASTER PLAN....OPERATION NORTHWOODS WOULD HAVE BEEN PULLED OFF TOO IF IT WEREN'T FOR JFK....GOOGLE IT! For those of you who don't have a clue as to how the buildings were constructed.....both wtc 1&2 had massive central core's...(which Andrew Farmer states were) made up of stairwells and elevators) correct...but he failed to mention the 47 massive central columns in each building....how did the simply fall down.....????how did all the concrete turn to dust...how does human bone turn to dust? how about the massive Pyroclastic clouds......what's sad is there are so many of you who lie......to distort the truth that so many of us see with our own eyes....

Nice rant.

"Pyroclastic clouds"? Did you see a volcano?

 

[DeathDart]

Nice rant.

"Pyroclastic clouds"? Did you see a volcano?

I did see Pompeii and Vesuvius, I think I would have remembered about any volcanoes in New York City. Are their any hot springs in that part of the country?

I can make you a volcano, but I need a shallow (<7miles) magma pocket.

Is it Ok, if the lava is a bit radioactive?

While not actually reaching the temperature of a volcanic pyroclastic flow, the dust could have been quite hot from frictional forces.

 

[Bell]

While not actually reaching the temperature of a volcanic pyroclastic flow, the dust could have been quite hot from frictional forces.

Hundreds if not thousands of people were caught in the dust clouds. Did any of them suffer burns?

 

[NoahFence]

So it's a trust issue?

If someone were to actually go ahead and prove this, it would be as obvious as the nose on your face. There is no wiggle room. Proof is proof.