A Skeptic Freemason - wtf?

[Aikenhead]

I hope that no one minds that I've revived this thread after 2 months, but I've been away from the forum for a while and just saw it. I'm very interested in the connections between skepticism and Freemasonry, both positive and negative, mainly because our current inspirational leaders in the field of skepticism, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and Michael Shermer - even Randi himself seem reluctant to mention Masonry outright.
Why...worried about getting beaten up if they reveal too much?

No Mason gets "beaten up" for revealing Masonic secrets. You get expelled, and no good Mason will associate with you anymore. That's all.

Personally I don't see how a skeptic or scientist can, in good conscience, belong to any organization which puts so much emphasis on secrecy. If the root of science and skepticism are evidence and objectivity, how can they be compatible with secrecy?

The secrecy in Masonry has nothing to do with anything outside of Masonry, and is in no way incompatible with "evidence and objectivity".

What about homosexuality. Are gays admitted (and lesbians to co-masonry?) - I've heard that there are separate gay lodges, or is there a "don't ask, don't tell" rule?

There are no "separate gay lodges". Gays and lesbians are welcome in all branches of Masonry. There is probably the same percentage of gay men in Masonry as there are gay men in every other large group, and there are gay men in the lodges I belong to that are openly so.

 

[Aikenhead]

I am both a skeptic (avid, attend a group etc) and a long time Mason (Past Master).

Me too.

The organization is rife with mysticism and pseudo-history. Sometimes the pseudo-history is raised to a meta level. For instance, they take historical accounts from the Bible and change them to fit the Masonic outlook. But, ultimately when confronting a long standing Mason about the discrepancies, they tend to reply something to the effect that "it's all ********, all of it".

After a while, it's just a bunch of guys drinking and doing their best to keep a live a tradition for it's own sake - almost indistinguishable from any family tradition. The secret work, available on any of a hundred websites, gets handed down, word for word, from memory, from adept to novice. I suppose this is what creates and strengthens the bonds - fraternity, fealty and charity.

Well, I have to disagree with you there. Certainly, there's a lot of "mysticism and pseudo-history" in Masonry, but if you haven't found anything beyond that, it's not due to its absence. There's a great deal of content that simply isn't made available to Masons who don't have the inclination or interest to look for it. One of the best ways to begin one's search for it it is through Traditional Observance lodges, or research lodges.

There are also countless "invitational societies" that tap Masons for membership that you'll never hear about unless they tap you. Many of these focus on esoteric aspects of Masonry and related disciplines (sometimes very distantly related).

In short: the "bunch of guys drinking and doing their best to keep alive a tradition for its own sake" is just the lowest, largest and most visible group. The good stuff simply isn't for public consumption.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Welcome to the forum, Aikenhead! Interesting and informative posts!

 

[Aikenhead]

Welcome to the forum, Aikenhead! Interesting and informative posts!

Thanks for the welcome!

Happy to add to the discourse, even if it's one year after the fact.

 

[LightinDarkness]

In short: the "bunch of guys drinking and doing their best to keep alive a tradition for its own sake" is just the lowest, largest and most visible group. The good stuff simply isn't for public consumption.

I question anyone who makes these sort of statements unless its highly qualified. Its true that most of the interest esoteric and philosophic aspects of freemasonry aren't for "public consumption," but only because people aren't looking for it. Its not hidden or kept secret from the membership (or the public at large, really).

Most masons simply don't care to go deeper - but there arent huge numbers of "invitation only" branches keeping the "good stuff" from you.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Obviously, there is no good stuff.

Can LinD describe one Freemason meme that is anything other than a motherhood statement?

I presume the only attraction is the belief that it will help boost careers, but I don't want to discount the possibility that it used to provide an outlet for men in a time when wearing an apron was socially disapproved of.

 

[Aikenhead]

I question anyone who makes these sort of statements unless its highly qualified. Its true that most of the interest esoteric and philosophic aspects of freemasonry aren't for "public consumption," but only because people aren't looking for it. Its not hidden or kept secret from the membership (or the public at large, really).

Most masons simply don't care to go deeper - but there arent huge numbers of "invitation only" branches keeping the "good stuff" from you.

What percentage of Republicans had even heard of the PNAC during its 8 years of publishing papers? Very few noticed it. What percentage of the 3 million US servicemen and women in the armed forces today know about Continuity of Operations Contingency Site D? A minuscule number, and entirely on a need-to-know basis. What percentage of Catholics had heard of Opus Dei before that Dan Brown book? -.001%? And that's an organization with 90,000 members around the world who make no attempt at secrecy!

For that matter, how many of the 2 million Masons in the US today know about Amaranth, Quetzalcoatl, MOVPER, the Corks, the Tall Cedars, Allied Masonic Degrees, Societas Rosicruciana and the Order of St. Thomas of Acon? Not one in a hundred, I'd guess, and these are all "official" Masonic bodies with a public presence. How many Masons have even heard of Traditional Observance Lodges, even though there are almost 30 of them in the US today?

Sorry, but just because you don't know about invitational Masonic orders doesn't somehow demonstrate that they don't exist. And it's not like I'm going to list them here (not that their names would mean anything to you anyway). And many such invitational orders are specific to one area, so if your lodge is outside of that area, you'd never be noticed to be tapped for membership. Others limit themselves by other parameters which might again preclude your being tapped.

As Dr. Sagan was fond of saying: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

 

[fitzgibbon]

Sorry, but just because you don't know about invitational Masonic orders doesn't somehow demonstrate that they don't exist. And it's not like I'm going to list them here (not that their names would mean anything to you anyway). And many such invitational orders are specific to one area, so if your lodge is outside of that area, you'd never be noticed to be tapped for membership. Others limit themselves by other parameters which might again preclude your being tapped.

As Dr. Sagan was fond of saying: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

And your point is? We can argue this as if the rabbit hole is actually reality and that darkness conceals the enormity of that which LiD is overlooking. However, it falls to you to delineate that which you claim exists. Quite honestly, your posturing seems to have more in common with anti-Masonic views than those of avowed Masons.

While the "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[Aikenhead]

And your point is?

I should've thought that my point was obvious.

Person A claimed that nothing existed beyond the superficial, within a society with millions of members. That is an argument from ignorance and an appeal to authority. After all, what member of any "society with secrets" could possibly know that there did not exist anything beyond their experience or knowledge?

Person B responded that in fact more did exist, beneath the surface. An assertion from experience carries more weight than an assertion from ignorance. Does that require "extraordinary evidence"? Only if person B cares to try to persuade others. He doesn't. He was informing, not proselytizing.

We can argue this as if the rabbit hole is actually reality and that darkness conceals the enormity of that which LiD is overlooking. However, it falls to you to delineate that which you claim exists.

Hardly. First, no one claimed an "enormity"; I said that there were "countless 'invitational societies'". In that, I am correct. Second, it's rather silly to demand that a member of a "society with secrets", who asserts the existence of related societies that operate in the background by intent, must prove their existence to the satisfaction of one and all. Now, what would you say that the odds are that I'm going to betray those organizations in order to satisfy the curiosity of outsiders?

Quite honestly, your posturing seems to have more in common with anti-Masonic views than those of avowed Masons.

I don't see how. You seem to be suggesting that these "invitational societies" within Freemasonry are somehow nefarious. That has not been my experience. Of course, I can't claim to know the purpose or methods of every such group, so I can't speak authoritatively on the subject.

While the "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Perhaps, but I think it's wiser to leave the determination about what is or isn't a cigar to tobacconists and cigar aficionados, than to those who have never seen the object in question.

 

[LightinDarkness]

What percentage of Republicans had even heard of the PNAC during its 8 years of publishing papers? Very few noticed it. What percentage of the 3 million US servicemen and women in the armed forces today know about Continuity of Operations Contingency Site D? A minuscule number, and entirely on a need-to-know basis. What percentage of Catholics had heard of Opus Dei before that Dan Brown book? -.001%? And that's an organization with 90,000 members around the world who make no attempt at secrecy!

For that matter, how many of the 2 million Masons in the US today know about Amaranth, Quetzalcoatl, MOVPER, the Corks, the Tall Cedars, Allied Masonic Degrees, Societas Rosicruciana and the Order of St. Thomas of Acon? Not one in a hundred, I'd guess, and these are all "official" Masonic bodies with a public presence. How many Masons have even heard of Traditional Observance Lodges, even though there are almost 30 of them in the US today?

Sorry, but just because you don't know about invitational Masonic orders doesn't somehow demonstrate that they don't exist. And it's not like I'm going to list them here (not that their names would mean anything to you anyway). Most of them never meet beyond once a year or once every two years since they are SIDE ORDERS with busy members who are all active in their "drinking club" as you call it blue lodges and the major side orders. And many such invitational orders are specific to one area, so if your lodge is outside of that area, you'd never be noticed to be tapped for membership. Others limit themselves by other parameters which might again preclude your being tapped.

As Dr. Sagan was fond of saying: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

Yeah Fitz, this makes me think this guy is CTer, fakemason, or in a "mail order" fraternity that he joined in order to feel special. I've never seen such a caustic response from a real mason, and I know plenty of real masons in the US who are in far more "prestigious" invitational orders than he could ever dream of. Men like Dr. S. Brent Morris, who also has achieved the Scottish Rites highest invitational only honor (separate from the 33rd degree), who the picture of humility and grace. And what do you know...he spends nearly all of his time conversing with those "drinking club" level masons.

Indeed the entire concept promoted by Aikenhead here is something we see expressed by conspiracy fruitcakes all the time - the whole "high level" mason thing. It looks like either Aikenhead isnt a mason or hes getting off on thinking hes special - in either case conduct unbecoming a real mason.

Of the 2 million North American masons I'd say much of them have heard of some of those organizations - they aren't seem as some sort of "secret keepers" of knowledge by anyone except you it seems. The TO movement is also well known, and people like you do a good job at presenting why its opposed where it is.

Sorry, but you've failed. Try again. I love the assumption that I couldn't possibly be in any invitation orders by the way, when I am in at least 4 where membership is extended by invite only and in 2 where membership numbers are limited by the charter - but then again that just proves that I know what I am talking about and you are clueless. There is nothing in them that is hidden from the general membership, and its not hard to get an invite either, even in the "membership is limited" bodies (membership limits can be raised...).

 

[LightinDarkness]

I should've thought that my point was obvious.

Person A claimed that nothing existed beyond the superficial, within a society with millions of members. That is an argument from ignorance and an appeal to authority. After all, what member of any "society with secrets" could possibly know that there did not exist anything beyond their experience or knowledge?

Person B responded that in fact more did exist, beneath the surface. An assertion from experience carries more weight than an assertion from ignorance. Does that require "extraordinary evidence"? Only if person B cares to try to persuade others. He doesn't. He was informing, not proselytizing.

Unfortunately this argument only took place in some fantasy realm where no one but you was present. Back away from the delusions and back into the reality:

I argued that while there was certainly more to learn than just the general blue lodge, that none of it was actively barred from people who wanted to look for it.

You argued that there was within freemasonry numerous mystical invitational orders where the "real" stuff was, and that general freemasonry was for the stupid guys.

Hardly. First, no one claimed an "enormity"; I said that there were "countless 'invitational societies'". In that, I am correct. Second, it's rather silly to demand that a member of a "society with secrets", who asserts the existence of related societies that operate in the background by intent, must prove their existence to the satisfaction of one and all. Now, what would you say that the odds are that I'm going to betray those organizations in order to satisfy the curiosity of outsiders?

Then you really know 0 about actual freemasonry since its not a "society with secrets" and hasn't been since about the time you could buy the ritual in Barnes & Noble. There aren't countless invitation societies - real Grand Lodges have limits on how many masonic orders they allow to be regular as to not stretch people too thin. Also, no REAL masonic invitational body keeps its existence secret from the general membership, as it would have to be approved by the Grand Lodge (those good old pleb masons again!).

By the way, what Grand Lodge are you under again? Please answer that question in your next vulgar expulsion of non-sense about freemasonry.

 

[Aikenhead]

Yeah Fitz, this makes me think this guy is CTer, fakemason, or in a "mail order" fraternity that he joined in order to feel special. I've never seen such a caustic response from a real mason...

...which you then responded to with an entirely caustic reply. Way to keep the high moral ground.

...I know plenty of real masons in the US who are in far more "prestigious" invitational orders than he could ever dream of...I love the assumption that I couldn't possibly be in any invitation orders by the way, when I am in at least 4 where members can join by invite only and in 2 where membership is limited by the charter - but then again that just proves that I know what I am talking about and you are clueless. There is nothing in them that is hidden from the general membership, and its not hard to get an invite either, even in the "membership is limited" bodies (membership limits can be raised...)

Congratulations for proving my point for me.

...the whole "high level" mason thing.

Except that I never even suggested "higher levels" in Masonry. Was that a reading comprehension failure or a strawman? No one in Masonry is "higher" than a Master Mason.

It looks like either Aikenhead isnt a mason

That's easily proved. Shall I scan my dues cards (name redacted) and post them here? Will you do the same?

...or hes getting off on thinking hes special - in either case conduct unbecoming a real mason.

I made no claims of "specialness"; I merely said that there was far more to Masonry than "a social club" -- a claim that you yourself to umbrage to a few posts ago. And you should be aware that my words here hardly constitute "conduct".

 

[LightinDarkness]

...which you then responded to with an entirely caustic reply. Way to keep the high moral ground.



Congratulations for proving my point for me.



Except that I never even suggested "higher levels" in Masonry. Was that a reading comprehension failure or a strawman? No one in Masonry is "higher" than a Master Mason.



That's easily proved. Shall I scan my dues cards (name redacted) and post them here? Will you do the same?



I made no claims of "specialness"; I merely said that there was far more to Masonry than "a social club" -- a claim that you yourself to umbrage to a few posts ago. And you should be aware that my words here hardly constitute "conduct".

You've come full circle on your stupidity now to this, which if that had been your original point we could have agreed upon. If you are really a mason - which I doubt - I am ashamed of the fraternity. We failed on letting someone with such arrogance in. You won't even respond by telling me your Grand Lodge, saying you'll scan a dues card is hysterical since if you were a real mason you'd know that you could make one up in photoshop. Giving a Grand Lodge name wouldn't establish your a mason either, of course, but it would be a start as I could cross check how many of the organizations you listed are active in that jurisdiction.

Anyways, enjoy the ignore list. There really isn't anything left to respond to. I debunk you and you respond "thanks for proving my point" as if thats going to erase the fact that your quoting something which shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Fitz, if he mentions a Grand Lodge PM me with it since I wont see it as hes on ignore. By the way, Fitz, this one sounds like an ATS troll if I am remembering correctly..you getting the same vibe as me? Remember the ATS troll we had that claimed to be a mason and made up a whole huge story around it? Wonder if this is reincarnation V2.0?

 

[Aikenhead]

You won't even respond by telling me your Grand Lodge, saying you'll scan a dues card is hysterical since if you were a real mason you'd know that you could make one up in photoshop. Giving a Grand Lodge name wouldn't establish your a mason either, of course, but it would be a start as I could cross check how many of the organizations you listed are active in that jurisdiction.

I'm inclined to believe that it is your reading comprehension that's at fault, especially if you think that you "could cross check how many of the organizations you listed are active in that jurisdiction". First, I never said that I was active in any of those groups (although I might be); I simply asked what percentage of Masons know of their existence. Second, you would have to be a Mason within my state to have access to its GL records. Third, you would only be able to see what organizations I was a member of that aren't the sort I was discussing, e.g., the major ones like Scottish Rite. Fail, fail and more fail.

As for the "you could just make it up in Photoshop" dodge -- well, first one would have to know what those documents look like. It's extremely unlikely that a non-Mason would have access to say, a dues card for a blue lodge, much less a 32nd Degree or KCCH certificate. And then, for example, you'd have to have some way to reproduce the embossed gold foil seal on my 32nd Degree certificate, or the blindstamp on my dues card. I could easily photograph these at an angle, which would make the possibility of faking them near zero. But of course you won't ask for me to do this, nor will you offer your own, since that would too easily disprove your claim that I'm not a real Mason.

There really isn't anything left to respond to. I debunk you...

Except, of course, that you did nothing of the sort. I asserted that there were "secret" (if that's an easier term for you to grasp) invitational organizations for Masons. And your "debunking" of that assertion? That you "know plenty of real masons in the US who are in far more 'prestigious' invitational orders than he could ever dream of." So you explicitly state that there are indeed such organizations, but they're "secret" and I don't know about them. Sound familiar? You may be blind to both your self-contradiction and the irony of your "debunking", but I'm not.

Then you really know 0 about actual freemasonry since its not a "society with secrets" and hasn't been since about the time you could buy the ritual in Barnes & Noble.

Perhaps you haven't been a Mason for very long, but Masonic "tell-alls" have been around since the 18th century. However, seeing line drawings of body positions or hand positions hardly conveys "secrets", especially since the details vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and an impostor, parroting whatever they might've seen in a book from Barnes & Noble would quickly be exposed as such.

The TO movement is also well known, and people like you do a good job at presenting why its opposed where it is.

Some people oppose TO? Amazing. I just hope that doesn't jeopardize my invitation to my non-TO lodge's annual beer & pizza feed.

There aren't countless invitation societies - real Grand Lodges have limits on how many masonic orders they allow to be regular as to not stretch people too thin. Also, no REAL masonic invitational body keeps its existence secret from the general membership, as it would have to be approved by the Grand Lodge

So you actually believe that every invitational society requires approval or charters from GLs?! What GL charters or approves say, the Philalethes Society? -or the Masonic Renewal Foundation? (Not that either of these are the sort of invitational societies that I've been referring to, since they're open to all Masons.) It may be news to you, but many Masonic groups that operate without a charter or approval from any GL.

You argued...that general freemasonry was for the stupid guys.

Nope. What I wrote was "the 'bunch of guys drinking and doing their best to keep alive a tradition for its own sake' is just the lowest (as in position), largest and most visible group." Nowhere did I suggest "stupidity". That's been your tack.

I love the assumption that I couldn't possibly be in any invitation orders...

Ah. Now I get it: this is about your ego. Got it.

If you are really a mason - which I doubt - I am ashamed of the fraternity.

What you ought to be ashamed of is your knee-jerk ad hominem reaction to what was, on my side, an innocuous assertion. You immediately accused me of the following:
being "CTer" (I presume that's accusing me of being an alt)
a "fakemason"
"in a 'mail order' fraternity that (I) joined in order to feel special"
"(not) a mason or...getting off on thinking (I'm) special"
"clueless"
that I "know 0 about actual freemasonry"
"stupid"
"arrogant"
and "a troll".

You're quite a credit to the Fraternity. With brothers like you, who needs anti-Masonry agitators?

Anyways, enjoy the ignore list.

If being ignored by you means that I'll miss your spleen-venting, then I'm sure I shall. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[LightinDarkness]

OK, we can close the book on this one. After talking with Fitzgibbon, we can definitely say that you have no idea what you are talking about, nor are you a freemason. For future trolling attempts, what gave you away was your statement that Grand Lodges don't have to approve of any self-proclaimed "masonic order" operating within their jurisdiction.

1. As real mason knows, the Grand Lodge sets the standard for recognition of masonic bodies - they can and in fact do from time to time issue BINDING proclamations barring their membership from taking part in self-proclaimed side masonic orders. Without the Grand Lodge's approval, these bodies are irregular freemasonry - and if Grand Lodge members leave to join these bodies, they are no longer masons because they have left their blue lodge.

Lets take a look at a recent example where the lowly Grand Lodges disapproved of a invitation only side order:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-D_9dexJ5S...A/zWAf0nlx2ZY/s1600/Edict_11_04_25_Page_2.jpg

Why look, as recently as March 2011 a lowly Grand Lodge was issuing an order barring its members from joining a invitation only side order. But obviously thats just a big joke, I mean its not like these side orders need Grand Lodge approval to get members..er...oh, wait.

2. You continue to fail to provide any information you are really a mason. Welcome to Google. http://home.comcast.net/~mark_krubsack/K6MAK/photos/view_15.html. Now, you could provide some real information to verify, but you won't do that because you don't know how to. Because you are not a mason.

Dismissed aikenhead. Thanks for playing!

 

[A Laughing Baby]

I'm getting my third put on me at the end of this summer, so I guess I'll get to join the Skeptic Mason Crew.

 

[Aikenhead]

OK, we can close the book on this one. After talking with Fitzgibbon, we can definitely say that you have no idea what you are talking about, nor are you a freemason. For future trolling attempts, what gave you away was your statement that Grand Lodges don't have to approve of any self-proclaimed "masonic order" operating within their jurisdiction.

1. As real mason knows, the Grand Lodge sets the standard for recognition of masonic bodies - they can and in fact do from time to time issue BINDING proclamations barring their membership from taking part in self-proclaimed side masonic orders. Without the Grand Lodge's approval, these bodies are irregular freemasonry - and if Grand Lodge members leave to join these bodies, they are no longer masons because they have left their blue lodge.

Lets take a look at a recent example where the lowly Grand Lodges disapproved of a invitation only side order:

Why look, as recently as March 2011 a lowly Grand Lodge was issuing an order barring its members from joining a invitation only side order. But obviously thats just a big joke, I mean its not like these side orders need Grand Lodge approval to get members..er...oh, wait.

Yep, it's "reading comprehension", and you seem to struggle with it often. Did you even read that page before you quoted it?! Here's what the salient bit says:

"the Commission...reported on a situation whereby members of Grand Lodges became affiliated with an organization whose charter originated from an irregular source".

What organization? "The Reformed and Rectified Rite of the USA". Chartered by whom? "The Grand Priory of Occitania" (the latter is an irregular French body). Of course a GL can take action when talking about irregular or clandestine lodges and GLs! But that's not what we've been talking about here. Read it again: "invitational groups".

Oh, and BTW: Bro. Chris Hodapp (PM, 33*) is on record as actually opposing the Commission's decision. Perhaps you don't think he's a "real Mason" either.

Next, nowhere did I say "side orders", as you have claimed. Again, do you even know the difference between the "invitational groups" I've been talking about and "side orders" (or "appendant bodies") like Shrine? No GL has any jurisdiction over groups like the Philalethes Society or the Masonic Renewal Foundation. Any such group can limit its membership to Masons in good standing. The ONLY thing that would bring them or their members into conflict with a GL is if they overstep their bounds (i.e., conduct themselves as a lodge). Again: what GL charters the Philalethes? NO GL. What GL could shut them down for doing what they do? NO GL. What GL could expel a brother for membership in them? NO GL. Quantum fail.

2. You continue to fail to provide any information you are really a mason.

Amazing that you haven't said what information you would accept that would prove it. What were you expecting? -a notarized letter from the Master of my Lodge? (Of course, that could be faked with Photoshop, natch.) Me to appear in front of you with my driver's license and my GL number, to check it with? (Of course, licenses can be faked.) I suggested the most obvious, difficult to fake proof, and you (not surprisingly) didn't like it.

Welcome to Google... Now, you could provide some real information to verify, but you won't do that because you don't know how to. Because you are not a mason.

You can claim that until the cows come home but it doesn't make it true. Well, I can say the same: you aren't really a Mason. Wasn't that easy? Now try to prove me wrong.

I can easily prove that I am by photographing one of my dues cards and my 32nd certificate -- from an angle, showing the embossed gold foil seal and the blindstamp. Please explain how one could possibly fake the complex reflections off of an embossed gold foil seal and the 3-D of a blindstamp. You can't.

I'll post mine this afternoon. I'll be waiting for you to do the same.

Dismissed aikenhead. Thanks for playing!

And thanks for putting me on "ignore". With ignoring like this, who needs attention? No, the only thing you managed to ignore was my point about how un-Masonic it was for you to immediately go ad hominem on me.

 

[fitzgibbon]

I'm getting my third put on me at the end of this summer, so I guess I'll get to join the Skeptic Mason Crew.

Congratulations! You're in for quite the ride.

 

[LightinDarkness]

I'm getting my third put on me at the end of this summer, so I guess I'll get to join the Skeptic Mason Crew.

I remember you talking about being interested in masonry a long time ago..PM me with how things have been going if you get a chance. As Fitz says, your in for quite a fun (but meaningful) ride.

And then you get to join the super secret elite side orders, according to the fakemason in this thread

 

[Aikenhead]

And then you get to join the super secret elite side orders, according to the fakemason in this thread

Except, of course, that I never said "side orders". I dare you to go back and find even one instance of me saying "side order" or "side degree". You know you can't. Reading comprehension? -or a lie? From a Mason? I'd hope not.

And as for "fakemason" -- here you go: photos from many angles of my 32nd Degree certificate, and my dues card from one of the lodges I belong to. (I've redacted names and places.) Since the forum only allows the posting of URLs after 15 posts, you'll have to add the usual h t t p : / / w w w . before each URL below, but hopefully that's not beyond your grasp.

Note that they're sitting on top of today's edition of the Times, which means that the photos could only have been taken today. Note the obvious three-dimensionality of the embossed foil seal and of the blindstamp. Note the differing reflections on the gold foil, from different angles. Go right ahead and try to explain how anyone could've faked these, Mr. Photoshop. Or why they'd bother to try.

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2613/2959940311361292201311750011lmNqMCUHbgVC8YknFIp8.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/1516/10602895048899365331311750028vRHJv04hNderjV4UE8Xk.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2111/608954562135855427313117500387sDGtbM0RxowarJIuw3O.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2477/99839022112433464061311750045RPqaO0vBxwASQoFMLJE8.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2132/7856110416330049791311750064X16jkIM6kR7YmMBv60Dq.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2113/42457485510588082101311750079ErTZLb5MLmZWSfmugCcD.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2026/1815929902381328322131175008734TvG4eO1R5NoNijtClH.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/2970/252760371988849361311750161vZReSkgLsKpS1sxm8Hus.JPG

picvalley.net/v.php?p=u/1815/80311104010730555541311750166kV6noTiVJP8q4DCXHR3k.JPG


I'll be waiting to see your bona fides now, and I'm ready to accept an apology from you for your libeling a fellow Mason.