A Skeptic Freemason - wtf?

*sigh*

For some reason, my posting these automatically adds a space near the end of each URL. I presume that this is related to the fact that I don't have the requisite 15 posts under my belt to be allowed to post links. Just remove any spaces you see, add the h t t p : / / w w w . at the beginning (if necessary) and take a look.
 
Thanks for the Great Work, Gentlemen. This thread is quite amusing.

Heh. I have to say that it's a little surreal, having to prove that I actually am a Freemason. And a little surprising to encounter so much bile from another Mason, but there it is.

I guess what's not surprising is the deafening silence from "Mr. You're Not Really A Mason", now that he's figured out that I actually am, and has tiptoed off in embarrassment.

Masons aren't usually like this, you know. When we're not running the world, hiding the extraterrestrials in Area 51, keeping the metric system down and so forth:rolleyes:, we're generally pretty good-natured.

Thanks for helping out with the picture hosting, BTW.
 
So where is LinD?

I seem to recall that the Lodge of freemasons he claimed to belong to was an Internet Lodge.

Maybe he is a member of the ancient and accepted order of Trollmasons?
 
So where is LinD?

I seem to recall that the Lodge of freemasons he claimed to belong to was an Internet Lodge.

Seriously?! :rolleyes:

Nice to know that I wasted all of those posts trying to prove my bona fides to some iMason.

Internet Lodges make about as much sense as text orgies.
 
Joker.

Seriously, though. That was funny, but are there such things as internet Masonic Lodges? How are they viewed by non-internet Masons? I Googled it and found a few, but they still seemed like they had brick-and-mortar meeting places.

This is interesting to me. My roommate in college was a Mason, and to me it seemed like it was just something he was doing because his father and grandfather did it. I have no opinion one way or the other about Masons, but it is an interesting subject.
 
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I used to really enjoy Freemasonry, and I still do for that matter.
I've never been a Mason, but the ritual, philosphy, and members really helped encourage me to pursue it.
Thing is, though, I am an atheist. My part of the country is fairly... conservative.
Still mostly all right guys but want God in there somewhere.

Most of the reason I got into it was the conspiracy forums I was a member of.
The Freemasons on the site were generally fair and sceptical, while the others in that subsection mostly..... were not.
 
I am from a conservative part of the country and I had a couple questions.

I have an Uncle that was a Mason for 50yrs (he is dying now) but he never wanted to talk about it. Why?

A guy I used to work with whose dad was a freemason in one of the major cities in our state and told me some things.

Women could not join his lodge.
People of color (Arabs and Africans) could not join.

Why?

Also he stated that African Americans have something similar but it is not technically free masonry.

Is all that true and could you explain?

My grandfather was a freemason and there is literally a lodge right down my street and I was seriously thinking about joining but there are some issues with the lodge by my house.

1. I or anyone else have never ever see anyone there. Not even cars.

2. There is no website for it on the net.

3. I live in a very small town.

4. I don't even know who is in it. I live in a small town and practically know everyone and no one even acknowledges that the very inconspicuos brown tin barn looking building with no windows is even there. When I have told ppl in the past about it they tell me later OMG you're right they have the sign above it with blue background with yellow compass and square and everything. These are people who (including me) have lived in this town their whole life who never even knew it was there.

5.Also it is directly behind the town library (which is kinda funny)

Hope you can help me with my questions, thanks.
 
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Seriously, though. That was funny, but are there such things as internet Masonic Lodges? How are they viewed by non-internet Masons? I Googled it and found a few, but they still seemed like they had brick-and-mortar meeting places.

The only "internet lodge" I know of is in Britain, and it also meets in person at least 3 times every year. Frankly, I think the whole thing is a gimmick to try to appeal to "those kids and their interwebs". There are two main things that Masons do in Lodge (a Masonic "Lodge" is a group of Masons, not a place): ritual work (which would be impossible to do on-line) and "stated meetings", which are for the transaction of Lodge business. The latter *could* be done on-line, but why? Most stated meetings take place once a month and last maybe an hour; not exactly causing great hardship.

This is interesting to me. My roommate in college was a Mason, and to me it seemed like it was just something he was doing because his father and grandfather did it. I have no opinion one way or the other about Masons, but it is an interesting subject.

There are many different reasons why men (and women, if we're going to include co-masonry) become Masons. In the 18th century, one of the main reasons was because the Enlightenment was the greatest thing going, and Freemasonry was a hotbed of Enlightenment philosophy and philosophes. In the 19th century, a big attraction was networking for politicians, tycoons (and aspiring tycoons), etc. In the mid-20th century, it appealed to millions of returning GIs who missed the camaraderie they enjoyed during the War.

But now, one of the biggest draws to Masonry is a hunger for the intellectual, philosophical and esoteric substance that society lacks. One of Masonry's great strengths is that it has borrowed liberally from just about every mystery school and inner tradition in history, so you'll find (among other things) elements of Egyptian mythology, Paganism (in the original sense of the word), Zoroastrianism, Arthurian myths, Kabbalah, Rosicrucianism and Alchemy, and a large dose of Deism.

And these bits aren't just picked at random, but harmonized into something that "works" across all cultural lines. That's why Masons refer to whatever "supreme being" they prefer to ascribe divinity to as "the Great Architect of the Universe" -- a term that can be as personal as say, Yahweh, or as impersonal and ineffable as Spinoza's "god" (scientific pantheism). The "sacred volume" that rests on the altar of every Lodge room can be whatever such book a particular Lodge prefers; Christian Bible, Torah, Bhagavad-Gita, etc.

Masons aren't permitted to discuss religion (or politics) within Lodge, and this has been one of Freemasonry's greatest strengths; that it can transcend divisive tribalism. On the other hand, this has also provided fuel to both conspiracy theorists ("theorists" is really too kind a term) and to churches who choose to characterize this refusal to subscribe to *their* particular god as proof of apostasy, or worse. Usually worse.
 
I am from a conservative part of the country and I had a couple questions.

I have an Uncle that was a Mason for 50yrs (he is dying now) but he never wanted to talk about it. Why?

I'm sorry to hear about your uncle. Many older Masons don't talk much about Freemasonry, and there are many different reasons why. Some are confused about what part of it is OK to talk about to non-Masons. Some are worried about the stigma of belonging to a group that has been characterized in countless negative ways. Some think that the subject must be boring to others. Perhaps some think it's more special if they keep it secret. No doubt there are other reasons, and I have no idea what his might be, but you shouldn't feel like it's a taboo subject.

A guy I used to work with whose dad was a freemason in one of the major cities in our state and told me some things.

Women could not join his lodge.
People of color (Arabs and Africans) could not join.

Why?

Also he stated that African Americans have something similar but it is not technically free masonry.

Is all that true and could you explain?

It is true that women can't join any Masonic Lodge that operates in accord with the "mother Lodge" (the first Grand Lodge in the world) -- the United Grand Lodge of England, or "U.G.L.E." There's a fairly sensible reason for this. Imagine if men and women were meeting behind closed doors, doing god-knows-what, and all of them sworn to secrecy? Could many husbands or wives absolutely trust that their spouses would not be getting into mischief? It would potentially be a serious problem for all concerned. it would also totally change the dynamic of the Lodge, since men and women behave differently in co-ed environments than they do in single-sex ones.

Having said that, there are other Masonic groups that accept both men and women, or are just for women. The only downside is that a Mason (either man or woman) who belongs to such a Lodge cannot sit in Lodge with any Mason whose own Lodge is in accord with the UGLE, so that rules out most Lodges in the US and Britain (and many other countries). If, for example, when I'm in France, I were to go sit in a co-ed Lodge meeting, I could be kicked out of Freemasonry in the US. It's a bit harsh, and it may be changing soon, but that's the rule for now. France in particular has lots of Lodges for women.

Men of all ethnicities can join Lodges. One lodge I belong to is about 50% European-American, with the rest made up of Asian-, Hispanic- and African-Americans. There are indeed Lodges that are predominantly black, called "Prince Hall Masonry", after its founder. This came about before slavery was abolished, while the nation was heavily racially-polarized. Prince Hall Lodges do allow non-black members, but they seem to be where many black Masons feel more comfortable. And their Lodges are recognized as legitimate Freemasonry by every Lodge in accord with the UGLE, so a Prince Hall Mason is just as much of a Mason as I am, and I'm so white, I glow in the dark.

My grandfather was a freemason and there is literally a lodge right down my street and I was seriously thinking about joining but there are some issues with the lodge by my house.

1. I or anyone else have never ever see anyone there. Not even cars.

2. There is no website for it on the net.

3. I live in a very small town.

4. I don't even know who is in it. I live in a small town and practically know everyone and no one even acknowledges that the very inconspicuos brown tin barn looking building with no windows is even there. When I have told ppl in the past about it they tell me later OMG you're right they have the sign above it with blue background with yellow compass and square and everything. These are people who (including me) have lived in this town their whole life who never even knew it was there.

5.Also it is directly behind the town library (which is kinda funny)

Hope you can help me with my questions, thanks.

Many Lodges are dwindling or even "going to sleep" (too few members to continue), especially in small towns. Also, most Lodges meet at night, and just once or twice a month, so you might not see them when they're coming or going. Likewise, many smaller Lodges don't have websites, and even some larger ones are slow to have a web presence, since many of their members are older and barely computer-literate.

There's another aspect of Freemasonry that you should know, and it's one that blows away most conspiracy theories about Freemasonry being part of some global domination plan: Lodges are forbidden from recruiting new members. A prospective member has to ask to join, and technically, he has to ask three different times, to prove his interest. He has to get to know at least 3 members in the lodge, who have to sign his petition for membership (they're putting their credibility on the line by doing so).

Prospective members mustn't have a bad reputation in the community. Criminal records generally disqualify a candidate, unless there's a credible backstory. So does being physically disabled at time of joining. He has to be able to support himself and his family. (These last two reasons are because Lodges have an obligation to help Brother Masons in times of need, and they don't want to get a member who will immediately need charity, hospitalization, etc.)

He must have some sort of belief in some "supreme being" (take your pick), and a belief in some sort of a hereafter. Having said that, most American Masons will be Christian (or Jewish), so it's important to respect the beliefs of others and not be offended if they use a Bible as their Sacred Volume of Law, while you want them to use your copy of the Necronomicon or whatever.

It helps if a candidate is interested in serving the community in some way (donating to charities, fixing food for soup kitchens, whatever), and being friendly, having good manners and not looking like Marilyn Manson, are all important attributes. So is enthusiasm and a willingness to help out and to learn. It's definitely not a good tack to begin a conversation with a Mason with "I hear you guys worship Baphomet and sacrifice babies! Kewl!" And one doesn't have to join the closest Lodge; it's more important to find one that's a good fit.

I hope this answers your questions. Feel free to ask any others.
 
I'm sorry to hear about your uncle. Many older Masons don't talk much about Freemasonry, and there are many different reasons why. Some are confused about what part of it is OK to talk about to non-Masons. Some are worried about the stigma of belonging to a group that has been characterized in countless negative ways. Some think that the subject must be boring to others. Perhaps some think it's more special if they keep it secret. No doubt there are other reasons, and I have no idea what his might be, but you shouldn't feel like it's a taboo subject.



It is true that women can't join any Masonic Lodge that operates in accord with the "mother Lodge" (the first Grand Lodge in the world) -- the United Grand Lodge of England, or "U.G.L.E." There's a fairly sensible reason for this. Imagine if men and women were meeting behind closed doors, doing god-knows-what, and all of them sworn to secrecy? Could many husbands or wives absolutely trust that their spouses would not be getting into mischief? It would potentially be a serious problem for all concerned. it would also totally change the dynamic of the Lodge, since men and women behave differently in co-ed environments than they do in single-sex ones.

Having said that, there are other Masonic groups that accept both men and women, or are just for women. The only downside is that a Mason (either man or woman) who belongs to such a Lodge cannot sit in Lodge with any Mason whose own Lodge is in accord with the UGLE, so that rules out most Lodges in the US and Britain (and many other countries). If, for example, when I'm in France, I were to go sit in a co-ed Lodge meeting, I could be kicked out of Freemasonry in the US. It's a bit harsh, and it may be changing soon, but that's the rule for now. France in particular has lots of Lodges for women.

Men of all ethnicities can join Lodges. One lodge I belong to is about 50% European-American, with the rest made up of Asian-, Hispanic- and African-Americans. There are indeed Lodges that are predominantly black, called "Prince Hall Masonry", after its founder. This came about before slavery was abolished, while the nation was heavily racially-polarized. Prince Hall Lodges do allow non-black members, but they seem to be where many black Masons feel more comfortable. And their Lodges are recognized as legitimate Freemasonry by every Lodge in accord with the UGLE, so a Prince Hall Mason is just as much of a Mason as I am, and I'm so white, I glow in the dark.



Many Lodges are dwindling or even "going to sleep" (too few members to continue), especially in small towns. Also, most Lodges meet at night, and just once or twice a month, so you might not see them when they're coming or going. Likewise, many smaller Lodges don't have websites, and even some larger ones are slow to have a web presence, since many of their members are older and barely computer-literate.

There's another aspect of Freemasonry that you should know, and it's one that blows away most conspiracy theories about Freemasonry being part of some global domination plan: Lodges are forbidden from recruiting new members. A prospective member has to ask to join, and technically, he has to ask three different times, to prove his interest. He has to get to know at least 3 members in the lodge, who have to sign his petition for membership (they're putting their credibility on the line by doing so).

Prospective members mustn't have a bad reputation in the community. Criminal records generally disqualify a candidate, unless there's a credible backstory. So does being physically disabled at time of joining. He has to be able to support himself and his family. (These last two reasons are because Lodges have an obligation to help Brother Masons in times of need, and they don't want to get a member who will immediately need charity, hospitalization, etc.)

He must have some sort of belief in some "supreme being" (take your pick), and a belief in some sort of a hereafter. Having said that, most American Masons will be Christian (or Jewish), so it's important to respect the beliefs of others and not be offended if they use a Bible as their Sacred Volume of Law, while you want them to use your copy of the Necronomicon or whatever.

It helps if a candidate is interested in serving the community in some way (donating to charities, fixing food for soup kitchens, whatever), and being friendly, having good manners and not looking like Marilyn Manson, are all important attributes. So is enthusiasm and a willingness to help out and to learn. It's definitely not a good tack to begin a conversation with a Mason with "I hear you guys worship Baphomet and sacrifice babies! Kewl!" And one doesn't have to join the closest Lodge; it's more important to find one that's a good fit.

I hope this answers your questions. Feel free to ask any others.

You did a really great job at answering all of my questions and have been very informative. I really appreciate your help in explaining in detail the answers to the questions I asked you. You're fellow Mason's would be proud.

Thanks for clearing that up about my uncle. I really appreciate it sir.
 
But now, one of the biggest draws to Masonry is a hunger for the intellectual, philosophical and esoteric substance that society lacks. One of Masonry's great strengths is that it has borrowed liberally from just about every mystery school and inner tradition in history, so you'll find (among other things) elements of Egyptian mythology, Paganism (in the original sense of the word), Zoroastrianism, Arthurian myths, Kabbalah, Rosicrucianism and Alchemy, and a large dose of Deism.

Follow up question.

I attended some events with my old roommate. Mostly open house type things at his Lodge; one dinner, one slideshow from a guy who had visited Isreal, stuff like that. The people I met at these events were very friendly and the atmosphere was one of brotherhood and fellowship. But these people were mostly farmers or local businessmen. I didn't really see them getting into intellectual or philosophical discussions much beyond grain prices or tractor repair.

Now, this is not an insult to Masonry; these are good people who do good things. Around here, it seems like Masonic lodges are more of a social club/charity organization than anything else. Does the intellectual and philosophical stuff just happen behind closed doors, or what?
 
Follow up question.

I attended some events with my old roommate. Mostly open house type things at his Lodge; one dinner, one slideshow from a guy who had visited Isreal, stuff like that. The people I met at these events were very friendly and the atmosphere was one of brotherhood and fellowship. But these people were mostly farmers or local businessmen. I didn't really see them getting into intellectual or philosophical discussions much beyond grain prices or tractor repair.

You'd go wrong presuming anything in advance of speaking with a particular Mason. Which is not to say that all are deep into esoterica but you might be surprised at who is.

Books and covers and all that

Now, this is not an insult to Masonry; these are good people who do good things. Around here, it seems like Masonic lodges are more of a social club/charity organization than anything else. Does the intellectual and philosophical stuff just happen behind closed doors, or what?

The intellectual and philosophical happen within to the extent that they're entertained
 
Follow up question.

I attended some events with my old roommate...I didn't really see them getting into intellectual or philosophical discussions much beyond grain prices or tractor repair.

Now, this is not an insult to Masonry; these are good people who do good things. Around here, it seems like Masonic lodges are more of a social club/charity organization than anything else. Does the intellectual and philosophical stuff just happen behind closed doors, or what?

No, you're absolutely right in your impressions. It's important to bear in mind three things, though.

First, you're right in thinking that "the intellectual and philosophical stuff happens behind closed doors".

Second, Freemasonry is extremely generational. As I mentioned, the main reasons for men becoming Freemasons in the US have changed drastically and often over the past 270 years of it being practiced here. Of the 2 million or so Masons in the US today, most are over 60 years old. Most of them got into it because of the desire for the social interaction they knew in WWII or Korea, or because they thought it would advance their career or community standing. Very few joined for the intellectual or philosophical reasons I mentioned, because very few knew it even offered such things. So, the vast majority of Masons alive today know or care very little (if at all) about those things. However, of those who are under say, 50 years old, many are indeed interested in those things; it may be what brought them to it in the first place. In general, the younger a Mason is today and the more recently he's gotten into it, the more likely he is to have joined for those reasons.

And third, Freemasonry is like a pyramid. The vast majority of what most people see as "Freemasonry" is really "Blue Lodge" Freemasonry. That's the first three degrees -- Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master. However, Freemasonry extends far beyond that. The two main "appendant bodies" are the Scottish Rite (which, confusingly, is actually more French than Scottish in background), and the York Rite (which the British call the "American Rite"!) These are systems of teaching more esoteric aspects of Freemasonry. Any Master Mason can choose to go into either or both system and spend the rest of their lives learning far more than will be taught in Blue Lodges.

And that's nowhere near the end of it. The Scottish Rite, for example, has degrees from 4th through 32nd that can be learned and earned. Each degree uses a different historic myth -- usually acted out by actors and then studied, memorized, discussed, etc. -- to teach an important moral truth. In the past, and still in some countries, it can take anywhere from a few weeks to a year to progress from one degree to the next. In some jurisdictions today, it can be done in a weekend. For those people, there are also active study groups that one can join and discuss each degree at length (usually once a month), so one is able to get more out of it.

After getting to the 32nd Degree, one can choose to go into Shrine or any one of a number of other Side Orders and affiliated bodies (there are dozens of them). If one has gone through the York Rite system, one can become a Knight Templar (although that group has explicitly Christian symbology that may not be for everyone), or other groups as well. Only maybe 5% of Masons will go through either system.

After a member has held the 32nd Degree for at least 4 years, the particular Scottish Rite body to which one belongs can choose to honor one by making one a "Knight Commander of the Court of Honor". After at least another 4 years of being an active participant, they can choose to award the 33rd Degree. (These last two are totally honorary and cannot be "earned".) And even then, there are levels and honors that one can be given, such as the Grand Cross of the Court of Honor, a very rare honor. Looked at as a pyramid with Blue Lodges on the bottom, for every maybe 20 Master Masons, there might be 1 who goes into the Scottish or York Rite. For maybe every 10 of them, there might be 1 who is given the KCCH. For every 10 KCCH, there might be 1 who is given the 33rd Degree. For perhaps every 50 33rd Degree Masons, there might be 1 who is given the GCCH (these are rough estimates, off the top of my head).

There are also "Research Lodges", many of which are very active and publish both original research being done by their members, and re-publish important (and often obscure) older research.

Furthermore, there is a small (but rapidly growing) group of "Blue Lodges" that are called "Traditional Observance" (or "TO") Lodges which have sprung up in the last decade. These place a strong emphasis on formality and very well-done ritual work, and most require each Mason to do original research and present their papers in front of the Lodge. TO lodges are intensely intellectual, philosophical and esoteric, and their members tend to be under 40.

And that brings me to the statement that I made which precipitated the pissing match with "LightInDarkness" -- the existence of invitational groups that are only open to Masons, and are not openly known about. There are indeed such groups, but they keep their existence dark. If they think that a Mason might be a good member, they'll tap them, but otherwise, a Mason will never hear of their existence. Most of these groups seem to be centered around a specific theme or field of interest. This is where the most in-depth philosophical, intellectual and esoteric stuff goes on. LiD didn't like the sound of that, for whatever reason (elitist? spooky? jealous?) and insisted I must be wrong. Well, I speak from personal experience. I'm not wrong.

Anyway, that's where the intellectual and philosophical stuff goes on. Not much of it in Blue Lodges (other than TO Lodges), but lots of it in the higher degrees, Research Lodges, reading groups, invitational groups and so forth.
 
Interesting, Aikenhead.

btw, in the aftermath of the horrible events in Norway I learned about the Swedish RiteWP, which is worked in Scandinavia and by parts of german freemasons, exclusively Christian and has eleven degrees.

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Furthermore, there is a small (but rapidly growing) group of "Blue Lodges" that are called "Traditional Observance" (or "TO") Lodges which have sprung up in the last decade. These place a strong emphasis on formality and very well-done ritual work, and most require each Mason to do original research and present their papers in front of the Lodge. TO lodges are intensely intellectual, philosophical and esoteric, and their members tend to be under 40.[...] Well, I speak from personal experience.


Could you give us an example of the kind of research you do?
 
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You'd go wrong presuming anything in advance of speaking with a particular Mason. Which is not to say that all are deep into esoterica but you might be surprised at who is.

Books and covers and all that

This was not a slight towards these fellows. I knew a lot of these guys my whole life. The majority of them went to school with my father, and I grew up with their kids. I knew them pretty well. Salt of the earth types, but not really what you'd call "into esoterica". But then again, most of the conversations I had with these guys over the years didn't really veer into esoterica. :) No offense intended.

...snip...
Anyway, that's where the intellectual and philosophical stuff goes on. Not much of it in Blue Lodges (other than TO Lodges), but lots of it in the higher degrees, Research Lodges, reading groups, invitational groups and so forth.


Good stuff. Thanks a bunch.

If I was interested in getting into this, would it behoove me to travel to a larger city (Madison is about fifty miles away and has several lodges, I think) to find a more varied group of lodges to prospect to, or are the opportunities available at any lodge? I know you said "any Master Mason" but would being from a rural lodge hinder my chances compared to being exposed to a larger cross section of the Masonic community?
 
Good stuff, Aikenhead.

I think LiD didn't like the idea that the esoteric stuff is, well, esoteric.

I'm sure if you're a mason and you want to learn about that stuff, you can if you want. It's not hidden, per se, but it's not forced down masons' throats either. Is that correct?
 

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