Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttals on YouTube by Chris Mohr

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What time was airspace in New York closed ?

At 9:25, Garvey, in an historic and admirable step, and almost certainly after getting an okay from the White House, initiated a national ground stop, which forbids takeoffs and requires planes in the air to get down as soon as reasonable. The order, which has never been implemented since flying was invented in 1903, applied to virtually every single kind of machine that can takeoff — civilian, military, or law enforcement. - Time (09/14/01)

So, 9:25 AM. Now, who would have been allowed to stay aloft? Oh, right, nobody really. Maybe Air Force One, but that is about it....
 
Uh, does anyone have an opinion on my YouTube Video 18, freefall collapse of Bldg 7? Just curious.
 
Uh, does anyone have an opinion on my YouTube Video 18, freefall collapse of Bldg 7? Just curious.
Top job for the audience you are targeting.

The explanation of over free fall due to leveraging/torquing is heavy going - I could easily stay with it but I am one of those who gave you the concepts. It will remain heavy for those who are not strong in basic physics and possible do not want to believe. They will probably target it for counter-attack.

That said you had to address it and you have done a commendable job in doing so.

Congratulations on the series.

The concluding sum-up is brief and to the point.
 
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Further to the above your handling of the Chandler error would not get across to most of the target audience. The concept of "systems boundaries" is not always understood by those who are reasonably fluent in physics and is probably not comprehended at all by the non-physics types. And you had to soft pedal the fact that Chandler had the system boundary wrongly defined - not easy to say simply without saying "wrong".

Not a big point - you had to touch on the issue and there is no easy way to explain it to those who are not systems thinkers. :rolleyes:
 
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Further to the above your handling of the Chandler error would not get across to most of the target audience. The concept of "systems boundaries" is not always understood by those who are reasonably fluent in physics and is probably not comprehended at all by the non-physics types. And you had to soft pedal the fact that Chandler had the system boundary wrongly defined - not easy to say simply without saying "wrong".

Not a big point - you had to touch on the issue and there is no easy way to explain it to those who are not systems thinkers. :rolleyes:
Hi Ozeco,

Thanks again for helping create the explanation of the freefall collapse of part of Building 7. You're right, there's no simple way to explain it. I'm curious, are there other people like me, not trained in science or physics, who can give feedback on whether my explanation is understandable? Here's the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkbDyAJuirg

This is way more important than the helicopter video "debate," in that it is a new attempt to explain what many in the 9/11 Truth movement call the "silver bullet" proving controlled demolition. Without understanding the physics of this collapse, I too was unconvinced by explanations I had gotten of this phenomenon from others at first. Go back to the old thread "Gage's last debate" and you'll see how long it took me to really understand this, and how stubborn I was about insisting that I be 100% satisfied before accepting any explanation.
 
Hi Ozeco,

Thanks again for helping create the explanation of the freefall collapse of part of Building 7. You're right, there's no simple way to explain it. I'm curious, are there other people like me, not trained in science or physics, who can give feedback on whether my explanation is understandable? Here's the link again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkbDyAJuirg

This is way more important than the helicopter video "debate," in that it is a new attempt to explain what many in the 9/11 Truth movement call the "silver bullet" proving controlled demolition. Without understanding the physics of this collapse, I too was unconvinced by explanations I had gotten of this phenomenon from others at first. Go back to the old thread "Gage's last debate" and you'll see how long it took me to really understand this, and how stubborn I was about insisting that I be 100% satisfied before accepting any explanation.

Faster than free fall?

Double talk galore.

Initiation event is the key to all this. One area of failure.

Columns unevenly weakened? What the hey?

If an internal collapse pulled the penthouse down and out of view how did the shell/perimeter/walls of WTC7 collapse evenly straight down?
 
Initiation event is the key to all this. One area of failure.

Can't be CD with only one area of failure.

If an internal collapse pulled the penthouse down and out of view how did the shell/perimeter/walls of WTC7 collapse evenly straight down?

You're talking about the north side of the building -the south side was for all intents and purposes, gutted. This is what caused the penthouse to collapse.
 
Can't be CD with only one area of failure.



You're talking about the north side of the building -the south side was for all intents and purposes, gutted. This is what caused the penthouse to collapse.

Initiation event was a phrase from the video. That would be the one area of failure.

Quote:
If an internal collapse pulled the penthouse down and out of view how did the shell/perimeter/walls of WTC7 collapse evenly straight down?


I'm talking about seeing the entire frame of the building sink evenly from view.

How could that happen if it had already collapsed internally?

How could the outside of the building catch up?
 
Faster than free fall?

Double talk galore.

Initiation event is the key to all this. One area of failure.

Columns unevenly weakened? What the hey?

If an internal collapse pulled the penthouse down and out of view how did the shell/perimeter/walls of WTC7 collapse evenly straight down?
Clayton,

Either very slightly faster than freefall or freefall... margin of error in measuring makes either possibility. I don't understand how that is doubletalk, that's just the analysis of the collapse speed.

Once a lot of the internal support collapsed, loads were shifted at the speed of sound to the surviving columns, which were the north perimeter wall columns mostly. Then they snapped like sticks one at a time but very quickly as the loads kept shifting from broken columns to standing ones.
 
Chris, watching Part 17, why do you call it a conspiracy theory? What truthers say is a conspiracy theory and what they call the "official story" is a theory about a conspiracy. Thats very different.

Otherwise, good points made made in the video.
 
If an internal collapse pulled the penthouse down and out of view how did the shell/perimeter/walls of WTC7 collapse evenly straight down?

Please explain why buckling is not a valid explanation for the 2.25 seconds of free fall compared with the suggestion that explosives - VAPORISED LIKE STAR TREK - the entire section beneath it - INSTANTLY.
 
Please explain why buckling is not a valid explanation for the 2.25 seconds of free fall compared with the suggestion that explosives - VAPORISED LIKE STAR TREK - the entire section beneath it - INSTANTLY.

Wake up. There was, to hear Mohr explain it, two collapses going on.

The internal collapse that caused the penthouse to disappear and the external collapse where frame/walls that sink evenly from view. How can the two coexist?
 
Wake up. There was, to hear Mohr explain it, two collapses going on.

The internal collapse that caused the penthouse to disappear and the external collapse where frame/walls that sink evenly from view. How can the two coexist?

Argument from incredulity.
 
I'm talking about seeing the entire frame of the building sink evenly from view.


No you're not. You're talking about the entire 'frame' of the NORTH FACE collapsing as one. Which is why I was longing for video of the south side during collapse, to shut you people up. It's pretty easy to visualize for rational, intelligent people. Twoofers? Not so much.
 
To chrismohr,

Thanks for posting your final video, number 18, which looks at the collapse of WTC7. You have asked for opinions about this so I’ll offer my input.
As a former architect myself, I will reveal that I do not believe the NIST NCSTAR 1A report and as much of your work here reflects what they have written this video is subject to the same criticisms which I levy to the NIST report on WTC7, a report which is based on pseudo science and distortions.
To focus more on the latter part of your video first I will start by looking at the symmetry of collapse, something that you do mention but you too distort to favour your own agenda. As is often the case with debunkers like yourself, you try to tie the collapse of the penthouse with any statements about the symmetry of destruction and clearly this is not fair or correct. What the ‘truth’ movement refers to when discussing the symmetry of collapse is the latter stage of the building’s failure when the main bulk of the building falls vertically to the ground. This is a clear and obvious stage and even NIST discusses this as being a distinct phase in the process of destruction referring to it as the ‘global collapse’. Therefore to suggest that the building’s failure was purely asymmetrical is wrong, especially when the evidence shows very clearly that after the fall of the penthouse, the remaining building, and that means most of it, fell straight down into its own footprint; not just the north wall, but at least three walls as seen in the available CBS and NBC videos. You need to be more honest here.
Also, contrary to your own interpretation of NIST’s report, you should make it clear to the viewer that NIST could not account for much of the physics in the latter stage claiming it to be uncertain, random and less precise. In fact they couldn’t even get their own models to fit very well as their simulations clearly show the outer walls starting to deform where as in practice they never did. Also, when describing the slight kink in the building compared with their own models NIST had to state that...., “the simulations do show the formation of the kink, but any subsequent movement of the building is beyond the reliability of the physics in the model”. Hmmm, doesn’t sound convincing to me and maybe not to many others either so why not come clean and mention this?
But what concerns me more is that NIST must have changed the parameters of its own computer simulation in order to get it to fit at all since they make the ridiculous assumption that steel buildings will effortlessly fall apart and return to their individual elements of I-sections and connectors when put under stress by gravity. This is simply not the case and perhaps this is why their own data is kept secret from public view. Buildings, especially steel ones, put up enormous resistance to being broken apart in such conditions because all those elements have been acting as a homogenous unit since construction and therefore never allow complete progressive collapse to occur. This makes your claim that WTC7 followed the ‘classic’ form of progressive destruction a gross distortion since no high-rise steel building has ever fully collapsed due to fire or damage prior to or since 9/11 making such comparison impossible. Again, you make it sound to the watcher that it is a common, everyday sort of event, when it is not.
I would put it to you that a more logical and probable reason for the outer walls remaining vertical and almost fully intact while the building fell is because the inner floors and columns were intact also. I could also draw a diagram like yours and show this and it would have as much validity as your example, in fact more so since it doesn’t rely on the many assumptions you make about buildings falling to pieces from the inside out or the north facade falling faster than free-fall due to a pivoting action! (which couldn’t have happen anyway since the east and west sides were intact too). I would argue that the simple fact the ‘global collapse’ occurred as it did; symmetrically, straight down at free-fall or near free-fall speed and with little or no deformation to the outer walls was because every supporting member of the lower floors had been removed of structural integrity at exactly the same time. Had this not happened, the bulk of the building would have rotated and toppled over or only partially collapsed, something which even NIST acknowledges. Only controlled demolition can cause such structural failure across the entire plan of such a massive building so quickly.
In short, I’m sorry to say that your video is an extremely lame rebuttal of the argument by Richard Gage and certainly does not put an end to the controlled demolition theory. By the way, steel I-sections do not snap like sticks.
 
To chrismohr,

Thanks for posting your final video, number 18, which looks at the collapse of WTC7. You have asked for opinions about this so I’ll offer my input.
As a former architect myself, I will reveal that I do not believe the NIST NCSTAR 1A report and as much of your work here reflects what they have written this video is subject to the same criticisms which I levy to the NIST report on WTC7, a report which is based on pseudo science and distortions.

And they would be?


Why don't we start at the beginning?

Care to start there?
 
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To chrismohr,

Thanks for posting your final video, number 18, which looks at the collapse of WTC7. You have asked for opinions about this so I’ll offer my input.
As a former architect myself, I will reveal that I do not believe the NIST NCSTAR 1A report and as much of your work here reflects what they have written this video is subject to the same criticisms which I levy to the NIST report on WTC7, a report which is based on pseudo science and distortions.
To focus more on the latter part of your video first I will start by looking at the symmetry of collapse, something that you do mention but you too distort to favour your own agenda. As is often the case with debunkers like yourself, you try to tie the collapse of the penthouse with any statements about the symmetry of destruction and clearly this is not fair or correct. What the ‘truth’ movement refers to when discussing the symmetry of collapse is the latter stage of the building’s failure when the main bulk of the building falls vertically to the ground. This is a clear and obvious stage and even NIST discusses this as being a distinct phase in the process of destruction referring to it as the ‘global collapse’. Therefore to suggest that the building’s failure was purely asymmetrical is wrong, especially when the evidence shows very clearly that after the fall of the penthouse, the remaining building, and that means most of it, fell straight down into its own footprint; not just the north wall, but at least three walls as seen in the available CBS and NBC videos. You need to be more honest here.
Also, contrary to your own interpretation of NIST’s report, you should make it clear to the viewer that NIST could not account for much of the physics in the latter stage claiming it to be uncertain, random and less precise. In fact they couldn’t even get their own models to fit very well as their simulations clearly show the outer walls starting to deform where as in practice they never did. Also, when describing the slight kink in the building compared with their own models NIST had to state that...., “the simulations do show the formation of the kink, but any subsequent movement of the building is beyond the reliability of the physics in the model”. Hmmm, doesn’t sound convincing to me and maybe not to many others either so why not come clean and mention this?
But what concerns me more is that NIST must have changed the parameters of its own computer simulation in order to get it to fit at all since they make the ridiculous assumption that steel buildings will effortlessly fall apart and return to their individual elements of I-sections and connectors when put under stress by gravity. This is simply not the case and perhaps this is why their own data is kept secret from public view. Buildings, especially steel ones, put up enormous resistance to being broken apart in such conditions because all those elements have been acting as a homogenous unit since construction and therefore never allow complete progressive collapse to occur. This makes your claim that WTC7 followed the ‘classic’ form of progressive destruction a gross distortion since no high-rise steel building has ever fully collapsed due to fire or damage prior to or since 9/11 making such comparison impossible. Again, you make it sound to the watcher that it is a common, everyday sort of event, when it is not.
I would put it to you that a more logical and probable reason for the outer walls remaining vertical and almost fully intact while the building fell is because the inner floors and columns were intact also. I could also draw a diagram like yours and show this and it would have as much validity as your example, in fact more so since it doesn’t rely on the many assumptions you make about buildings falling to pieces from the inside out or the north facade falling faster than free-fall due to a pivoting action! (which couldn’t have happen anyway since the east and west sides were intact too). I would argue that the simple fact the ‘global collapse’ occurred as it did; symmetrically, straight down at free-fall or near free-fall speed and with little or no deformation to the outer walls was because every supporting member of the lower floors had been removed of structural integrity at exactly the same time. Had this not happened, the bulk of the building would have rotated and toppled over or only partially collapsed, something which even NIST acknowledges. Only controlled demolition can cause such structural failure across the entire plan of such a massive building so quickly.
In short, I’m sorry to say that your video is an extremely lame rebuttal of the argument by Richard Gage and certainly does not put an end to the controlled demolition theory. By the way, steel I-sections do not snap like sticks.

And your full theory is?
 
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