Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Dogzilla]

So scale isn't relevant? And the fatal flaw is that he uses an animal?
Seems your understanding of both physics and biology are very poor.

Of course scale is relevant. Scale is what makes body disposal at the AR camps well nigh impossible. It's possible to bury seven hundred thousand corpses. It's possible to incinerate seven hundred thousand corpses. It's burying seven hundred thousand corpses and then digging them up, incinerating them and reburying them within roughly twelve acres over a fourteen or fifteen month period without leaving a trace is where you're going to run into difficulties.

The 2001 Mad Cow outbreak proves that it's possible to dispose of huge numbers of bodies through burning. According to that Environmental Impact report referenced earlier, over four million animals were culled for disease-control. Around twenty nine percent of the carcasses from disease control slaughter were disposed of by burning (including in-situ burning, mass pyres and incineration). So roughly 1.16 million carcasses were disposed through one of three burning methods. The burning of carcasses on mass pyres occurred between March and May 2001. That's only one fifth the time that the AR camps were operational.

That's impressive. It makes you wonder that if the British could incinerate that many animal carcasses in only three months that maybe the Germans could incinerate 1.5 million human corpses in fifteen months after all. But then you need to take into account the fact that the Germans were burying all those corpses at first and were only burning them between Feb and Aug/Sept? 1942. So that shortens the time frame significantly. Then you need to consider that the British were using over 950 pyre sites to burn their carcasses. And how many pyre sites did the Germans have going at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka? Three pyre sites? And how big were these pyre sites? According to the real historians who have objectively studied this dark period, these massive pyres were burning within a 200 x 250 meter plot of land alongside the old gas chambers, the new gas chambers, and the prisoner barracks.

Yeah, personal incredulity does make me question some of the details here.

 

[Clayton Moore]

A reasoned and measured response and yet . . . perhaps you haven't done your homework: I sat down and analyzed the content of the curriculum. And it showed, in fact, to your point, that there is nothing remotely approaching "Holocaustmania" in the core of public education in the US. A single class period a year, instructed by a teacher not trained or knowledgeable in the topic. That's it, Clayton. That's the reality behind your drama act.

Sorry. The enormity of Holocaustmania precludes historical reminding.


Google Holocaust. 120 million hits.
Google Judaism. 35 million hits.

What does that mean?

It means that when we see Jewish people we are supposed to see the Holocaust.

 

[little grey rabbit]

No, Dr Neander has spent a great deal of time researching the Holocaust. When confronting the Zisblatt "memoir," he used what he had learned, and his knowledge of sources, to spend additional time and effort deconstructing Mrs Zisblatt's story. Dr Neander has also spent a great deal of time and effort deconstructing the myth of Jewish soap, because he believes that the truth about the Holocaust is harmed when myths about it are supported.

With all respect to Dr Neander, he was not confronted with Zisblatt's memoir, he was confronted with Eric Hunt's debunking of it. That fact that he did a more comprehensive and more nuanced debunking should not obscure the fact he would not have done so had not Mr Hunt so vigorously raised the issue.

While it is true that Dr Neander did more archival research, Mr Hunt also did archival research in the archives available to him. Dr Neander living in Krakow and with good relations with the Auschwitz museum has certain advantages over some one living in Colorado, as from my own experience the Auschwitz museum refuses to allow skeptics to use their archives.

I should also add that I watched Last Days on DVD in 2004 and was immediately struck by the absurdity of Ms Zisblatt's tale about diamonds and gas chambers - however since so many survivors' tales are riven with such implausibilities there seemed to particular point to make an issue of it.

Cosi fan tutte.

 

[Dogzilla]

That would probably be Wierniks account. But those were decomposed bodies. But that methane gas can be produced during the process of decay of corpses is probably also beyond Dogzilla's basic understanding of biology.

I know he's probably reluctant to be educated but still;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

Bloat

The bloat stage provides the first clear visual sign that microbial proliferation is underway. In this stage, anaerobic metabolism takes place, leading to the accumulation of gases, such as hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and methane.

oh and this part is under "Human decomposition" so let there be no mistake that it's about animals, whose physical characteristics can of course in no way be compared to humans.

And everybody with a basic knowledge of chemistry knows that methane burns very slowly. Methane production from decomposition must be one of the reasons rotting corpses burn so easily. It's probably the reason why spontaneous human combustion occurs.

(That's sarcasm in case you missed it)

 

[Dogzilla]

This is Wiernik's famous description:
Did Wierknik describe the cremation differently elsewhere?

That's about as ridiculous as the description I remember.

 

[LemmyCaution]

My claims? How about I use Neander's claims?

My comments on Neander asked if he was going to tour and tell all those children who Zisblatt lied to that she did indeed lie to them.

And I certainly don't think Spielberg and his staff were too stupid to not recognize her book was a bunch of lies. When something is far fetched you don't run to the library to research it, do you? I don't.

Nice touch how the educators don't teach about the phantom gas chambers. We can call that the Winston De Ike skeleton conundrum.

The biggest demonetization of the Germans gets another no call. What a joke.

LOL, you are stuck, Clayton. You made statements and claims and now all you have when asked to support them is what you "don't think"; that's not proof or reasoning, that's just your opinion.

As to your strange "Nice touch" sarcasm concerning educators not teaching about the gas chambers, did you get that impression from this?

Death camps, explained as a way to stop leaving evidence of murder behind, Auschwitz cited, implication that Auschwitz had only killing camp (1 paragraph) . . . students will, in the books I surveyed . . . read three times about Auschwitz--on each occasion in a sentence or two or three; learn that Slavs, Gypsies, and the disabled were among the victims of the Nazis; and read the name Treblinka in passing as a death camp. They will learn that 6 million Jews were murdered by shootings, gassings, starvation, and labor.

You clearly don't know a thing about Dr Neander, his intentions, or his work--and show no signs of wanting to find out. How about you deal with Dr Neander's claims? That's right: tell us where they are wrong and how you know, that is, what documents or other sources demonstrate he is wrong. You clearly haven't done any research on Zisblatt, either, that would qualify you to pass judgment on her or on Dr Neander's expose. Dr Neander has, however, done the research and put it together into a cogent and, I think, persuasive position, and this is all contrary to your claims, including your unsupported opinion that he spent almost no time on his work on this. And finally Dr Neander deemed Mrs Zisblatt's book not believable, inaccurate, fabricated, which you refuse to accept despite repetitious quotes from the book showing that this is his conclusion.

 

[LemmyCaution]

With all respect to Dr Neander, he was not confronted with Zisblatt's memoir, he was confronted with Eric Hunt's debunking of it. That fact that he did a more comprehensive and more nuanced debunking should not obscure the fact he would not have done so had not Mr Hunt so vigorously raised the issue.

This may be true. I don't know. It doesn't change two salient points: 1) Dr Neander did not give Mrs Zisblatt or her defenders a "pass." Which is, after all, the claim we've been discussing. 2) Dr Neander--and you know this very well and your skipping over this point mystifies me--has devoted much of his research on the Holocaust to the soap myth--and to showing that the soap stories were not true. Which makes it not a very big leap for him to tackle other Holocaust myths. You, of course, think Dr Neander stops short in de-mythologizing. Fine, but that's a different argument. This one is about Dr Neander's conclusions regarding Mrs Zisblatt, however he was confronted by her story. Nothing you or your colleague Clayton Moore has opined changes what the focus of Dr Neander's research has been. Your silence on this is you own issue, but readers here, who may not know Dr Neander should be informed that his focus has been to strip away what his research shows him to be myth about the Holocaust. And his Zisblatt expose is an example of this agenda. Eh.

 

[LemmyCaution]

That's about as ridiculous as the description I remember.

Which was not the question. Of course. The request was for someone to produce a description of corpse burning caused "where somebody tosses a match on the carcass . . . and the carcass burst into flames and quickly burned completely to ash." To put the question another way, was your example a strawman, which you made up to make Nazi cremation practices sound ridiculous, or was it taken from somewhere?

 

[Clayton Moore]

(3) The fact that the Nazis also, from time to time, referred to that room as a Vergasungskeller or a Gaskeller. Something having to do with gas was done in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

Quote:
Bloat

The bloat stage provides the first clear visual sign that microbial proliferation is underway. In this stage, anaerobic metabolism takes place, leading to the accumulation of gases, such as hydrogen sulphide, carbon dioxide, and methane.

Maybe someone who has been in a morgue can let us know if there would have been a gas odor in the 40s which would make a leichenkeller a vergasungskeller.

 

[Gene Alley]

Gene, once again, when are you going to get around to posting the list of valid points made by deniers in this thread? When are you going to answer all the questions posed to you? Why did you say you were leaving the thread only to keep posting? Is being dishonest a virtue with deniers?

Here's something that is rather new and interesting.


http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2011/07/mengeles-unknown-writing/#more-1569



Mengele’s unknown writings to be auctioned



What’s most intriguing in this newsreport is the statement that the Auschwitz doctor’s writings include “denial of the conditions at the camps”. What could this mean, exactly?

The very brief excerpts published by Gerald Posner and John Ware in their Mengele biography Mengele: The Complete Story[2] provide us with some clues in this respect.[3] Mengele did not deny that mass death occured at Auschwitz due to epidemics, malnutrition and other “natural causes” (Posner/Ware, p. 73):

“It is natural and understandable that the camps were suffering very bad hunger after all the problems and therefore I saw what was to be expected.”

According to a Munich pharmacist and his wife who met with him soon after the war, Mengele wanted to turn himself in, but was finally persuaded against it. To this couple Mengele declared his innocence (p. 67):

“I don’t have anything to hide. Terrible things happened at Auschwitz, and I did my best to help. One could not do everything. There were terrible disasters there. I could only save so many. I never killed anyone or hurt anyone. I can prove I am innocent of what they could say against me. I am building the facts for my defense. I want to turn myself in and be cleared at a trial.”

If this quote from memory is correct, then it seems unlikely that Mengele was referring to the use of homicidal gas chambers, because the systematic killing of innocent people in chemical slaughterhouses would not be a “disaster”, but pre-meditated mass murder. Epidemic outbreaks, however, could justly be termed “disasters”.

The defense that Mengele was reportedly building may well be included among the papers now to be auctioned off.

Elsewhere (p. 154) Mengele noted that)

“The political lie triumphs and time and history have been warped and bowed.”

This clearly indicates that Mengele believed that victors of WWII had rewritten the history of what transpired during the war in their own favor.

Then there is the title of one of the autobiographical texts, Fiat Lux, “Let there be light”. A suggested by Robert Faurisson, this title clearly implies that Mengele wished to shed light on what had actually transpired at Auschwitz.

If it is true that Mengele’s writings contain “denial of the conditions at the camps” then it seems most likely that “conditions” refer to either claims of gross mistreatment of prisoners in the form of torture, unlawful punishments etc, or to the allegation that Auschwitz functioned as an extermination camp.

One can only hope that the Mengele documents are purchased by an institution that does not place them behind lock and key, but prefer to reveal their contents to the world. After all, we should never underestimate the Holocaust industry’s tendency to shoot itself in the foot.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] “Auschwitz ‘Angel of Death’ Josef Mengele’s Unknown Writings to be Auctioned”,

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...known-writings-to-be-auctioned-124801054.html

[2] Gerald Posner, John Ware, Mengele: The Complete Story, McGraw-Hill, New York 1986.

[3] For more on this biography see my online review at: http://www.codoh.com/review/revmengele.html

Written by Thomas Kues in: Auschwitz,Eye-witnesses,Gas Chambers,Holocaust | Tags: Thomas Kues
Inconvenient History | Revisionist Blog

 

[uke2se]

Here's something that is rather new and interesting.

[snipped Nazi blog]

No, that's not interesting at all. In fact, it is completely irrelevant, both in the grand scheme of things, and regarding the post you quoted.

It is now clear that not even you feel that there are any valid points made by deniers in this thread. If there were, you would have posted them. It is also clear that your attempt to portray yourself as somehow "neutral" has failed. You're as deep in denial as the rest of the deniers here.

Now, you still haven't answered any questions posed to you. Answering those might (and I do say might) salvage a little credibility. Failure to do so leaves you looking as nothing but a troll.

 

[Gene Alley]

No, that's not interesting at all. In fact, it is completely irrelevant, both in the grand scheme of things, and regarding the post you quoted.

It is now clear that not even you feel that there are any valid points made by deniers in this thread. If there were, you would have posted them. It is also clear that your attempt to portray yourself as somehow "neutral" has failed. You're as deep in denial as the rest of the deniers here.

Now, you still haven't answered any questions posed to you. Answering those might (and I do say might) salvage a little credibility. Failure to do so leaves you looking as nothing but a troll.

I have answered all of the questions that have been posed to me that I know the answers to. If I didn't answer it is because I don't know the answer at this time. There is no need to be overly dickish here.

You guys have also failed to answer several of the questions I have posed. Now here's another one that any of you guys can take a whack at. I just found this interesting report regarding Josef Mengele's personal papers. He was a major player at Auchwitz and an eyewitness to many events that took place there.

1)Were you aware of these papers?

2)What's your take on the short article I posted

3)Is this the type of information that "real historians" would find useful?

Personally, I find this information to be quite interesting and can not wait until these documents are forensically inspected. I would also like to know who buys them at the auction.

 

[Clayton Moore]

And finally Dr Neander deemed Mrs Zisblatt's book not believable, inaccurate, fabricated, which you refuse to accept despite repetitious quotes from the book showing that this is his conclusion.

Wow. Golly gee. Thank goodness Neander beat his chest with news of Zisblatt's lies on his blog.

So what. Who's going to know?

The book is still on sale.

This "Amazon review" is an example of how dangerous lies are to the naive.

5.0 out of 5 stars I respected her silence; I now applaud her voice, January 11, 2009
By
sHoagie "shoagie" (New Jersey) - See all my reviews
This review is from: The Fifth Diamond (Paperback)
This book brought tears to my eyes, a terrific ache in my heart, and a strong will to share with others the accounts of Irene's life, and all of the wisdom and lessons she has gained over the past decades.
I grew up knowing Irene - she was my best friend's mother when I was a teenager. I was aware that she had been a Concentration Camp prisoner as a young girl; however I could never have imagined the torture, pain, hunger, dehumanization, dispair, and surprisingly, the strong sense of determination that she lived with daily. This book provided detailed accounts of what she endured before, during and after the Holocaust. I shudder trying to comprehend human beings treating innocent people with such contempt, hate and horror. I applaud Irene (Mama Z as we affectionately called her), for finding the courage, strength, need and resolve to finally be able to share her story with all of us.
The book is written in a very easy and understandable format. While some pages offer extremely disturbing accounts of life in the Concentration Camps, it is a book that MUST be read by school-age children, young adults, adults and Senior Citizens, and then discussed with others.
There is much the world has to gain as a result of reading this book - and I believe that is truly Irene's sole intention for sharing her story. She survived the unthinkable, forged a strong relationship during her imprisonment, escaped her fate with death numerous times, found her inner strength, remained faithful to her family values, found love, raised a beautiful family, and now wants the world to know how this all came to be...what a beautiful(and painful) gift she has shared with all of us!

 

[Gene Alley]

Here is the story regarding the buyer of Mengele's diary in today's Seattle Times. I wonder if the buyer will submit these documents in their entirety for historical review by independent researchers.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2015696575_apusnazijournal.html

Auction house says it sold Josef Mengele journals
A Connecticut auction house says it has sold the journals written by Nazi death camp doctor Josef Mengele. The sale is drawing criticism from a leader of Holocaust survivors who says the business was profiting off the sale of one of the worst mass murderers in history.

By JOHN CHRISTOFFERSEN

Associated Press



NEW HAVEN, Conn. —
A Connecticut auction house says it has sold the journals written by Nazi death camp doctor Josef Mengele. The sale is drawing criticism from a leader of Holocaust survivors who says the business was profiting off the sale of one of the worst mass murderers in history.

Alexander Autographs, of Stamford, sold the journals Thursday for nearly $300,000, said Bill Panagopulos, the company's president. Alexander officials said the Jewish buyer wants to remain anonymous and is building a private collection for a museum.

"I am outraged that Mr. Panagopulos and his outfit have profiteered off a sale of materials by one of history's greatest mass murderers designed to enrich his heirs," said Menachem Rosensaft, vice president of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors and Their Descendants.

Rosensaft thinks the consignor got the journals from Mengele's family. He said the journals should have been given to a historical archive for scholars.

Rosensaft said Mengele "selected" his aunt for the gas chambers in 1944, and many other relatives were killed in the Holocaust. He said his mother, who survived, saw Mengele knock a young woman to the ground, put a boot on her chest and hummed a song while keeping his foot in place until she died.

Rosensaft also criticized the auction house for selling other Nazi items, saying they could be of interest to neo-Nazis

Panagopulos said an American company was the consigner that put the journals up for sale. He said his profit would be $15,000 to $20,000 and that he would make a donation to a war memorial.

"I'm not going to the bank on the sale," he said.

Panagopulos said Rosensaft was the only one he has heard criticism from. He said Mengele's journals have historical value and that many auction houses deal with Nazi-related items and the buyers are reputable.

Mengele was one of the most wanted Nazi war criminals, a doctor who conducted cruel experiments on twins and dwarves at the Auschwitz concentration camp and killed children with lethal injections. He selected prisoners who would be subjected to his experiments and sent others straight to their death in gas chambers.

His horrors earned him the title "Angel of Death."

After the war, Mengele fled Germany under an assumed name and ended up in Argentina, a popular refuge for many senior Nazi officials. After eluding capture for 34 years, Mengele drowned in Brazil in 1979.

The 3,400 pages of journal writings sold Thursday cover 1960 through 1975 when Mengele was hiding in South America. Excerpts from his diaries appeared in 1985 in the weekly German magazine Bunte, which reported Mengele was terrified of being captured and tormented by sleeplessness but remained a Nazi to the end.

In promoting the sale, Alexander said the journals were only sparingly quoted.

"Taken as a whole and carefully read and analyzed, this archive, the vast majority of which has never been published or perhaps even viewed, offers an in-depth view into the cruelest mind of the twentieth century," the auction house wrote.

The journals detail Mengele's escape from Germany through bribery and human smuggling, a stint in jail, his arrival in Argentina penniless and his life in a slum. They also cover his racist views, fascination with anatomy and what he calls the shameful peace of World War I.

The buyer spoke on condition of anonymity, saying he didn't want his private life disrupted. He described himself as the son of a Holocaust survivor who has collected 5,000 original documents related to the Holocaust and plans to open a museum at some point.

"I feel a great obligation this should be shown to the public," the buyer said.

He said in the right hands the documents can be used as a force for good to counter Holocaust deniers and to reject any philosophy that leads to discrimination.

"I don't think it's been intensely scrutinized," the buyer said of Mengele's journals. "It's going to say a lot about his state of mind."

 

[MG1962]

One can only hope that the Mengele documents are purchased by an institution that does not place them behind lock and key, but prefer to reveal their contents to the world. After all, we should never underestimate the Holocaust industry’s tendency to shoot itself in the foot.

I prefer to hear from one of the few people outside of Posner and Ware to read the papers

Bill Panagopulos, president of Alexander Historic Auctions, has a strong opinion on the sale of the archive: “Scholarly institutions or historic collections should obtain these writings not as a ‘remembrance’ of a horrific period of world history, but more as a learning tool for future generations to recognize the psychopathic mentality that incited the Holocaust so that similar genocides are never repeated.”

 

[Gene Alley]

I prefer to hear from one of the few people outside of Posner and Ware to read the papers

Bill Panagopulos, president of Alexander Historic Auctions, has a strong opinion on the sale of the archive: “Scholarly institutions or historic collections should obtain these writings not as a ‘remembrance’ of a horrific period of world history, but more as a learning tool for future generations to recognize the psychopathic mentality that incited the Holocaust so that similar genocides are never repeated.”

I would prefer having the contents of this 3500 page diary made public rather than taking Posner's, Ware's or Panagopulos' synopsis. I would also like to see the earlier writings of Mengele which were written between 1945 and 1960. I wonder where they are and why they haven't been released to the public and made a part of the extensive holocaust record?

 

[Clayton Moore]

I would prefer having the contents of this 3500 page diary made public rather than taking Posner's, Ware's or Panagopulos' synopsis. I would also like to see the earlier writings of Mengele which were written between 1945 and 1960. I wonder where they are and why they haven't been released to the public and made a part of the extensive holocaust record?

Off the record?
The FBI warehouse for important stuff the public can't find out about.

 

[Wroclaw]

Maybe someone who has been in a morgue can let us know if there would have been a gas odor in the 40s which would make a leichenkeller a vergasungskeller.

Coupla problems with your notions here:

(1) Morgues are refrigerated to prevent such decay, which, of course, evokes the question of why there is no record of refrigeration being installed in the Leichenkeller. Beyond that, if they were really storing corpses in that room on a regular basis without refrigeration, they'd have much worse smells to worry about than methane. MUCH worse. If you don't have any idea, then go buy a pork chop and leave it in a warm, humid room for a week or so.

(2) Vergasen means "to gasify," i.e., either to create gas or (hang on) apply gas to something. Gas creation would be a little absurd here, as you not only would be creating an explosion hazard, but also that there's nothing to suggest such a process going on there. Further, while it's certainly a possibility that gas was "applied" to things other than people — after all, we do know that the term vergasen was also applied in fumigation chambers, the levels of HCN on the walls of Krema II are far too low to indicate regular fumigation therein. Nor are there Prussian blue stains, which would very likely have formed if the type of volume of Zyklon-B were used in that room that was typically used for delousing.

Any other bright ideas on what a Vergasungskeller is then?

 

[abaddon]

Wow. Golly gee. Thank goodness Neander beat his chest with news of Zisblatt's lies on his blog.

So you have a problem with honest research, why?

So what. Who's going to know?

So if you can cover up a crime that's ok?

The book is still on sale.

So you want to be able to suppress books why?

This "Amazon review" is an example of how dangerous lies are to the naive.

And you measure naivete how?


Why is it that I suspect no valid answers will be forthcoming?

 

[Ignorantbystander]

Of course scale is relevant. Scale is what makes body disposal at the AR camps well nigh impossible. It's possible to bury seven hundred thousand corpses. It's possible to incinerate seven hundred thousand corpses. It's burying seven hundred thousand corpses and then digging them up, incinerating them and reburying them within roughly twelve acres over a fourteen or fifteen month period without leaving a trace is where you're going to run into difficulties.

So finally we're there... yes it's possible to burn large quantities of corpses on pyres in the way described by survivors. But now you move the goalposts to time, space and traces.

The 2001 Mad Cow outbreak proves that it's possible to dispose of huge numbers of bodies through burning. According to that Environmental Impact report referenced earlier, over four million animals were culled for disease-control. Around twenty nine percent of the carcasses from disease control slaughter were disposed of by burning (including in-situ burning, mass pyres and incineration). So roughly 1.16 million carcasses were disposed through one of three burning methods. The burning of carcasses on mass pyres occurred between March and May 2001. That's only one fifth the time that the AR camps were operational.

That's impressive. It makes you wonder that if the British could incinerate that many animal carcasses in only three months that maybe the Germans could incinerate 1.5 million human corpses in fifteen months after all. But then you need to take into account the fact that the Germans were burying all those corpses at first and were only burning them between Feb and Aug/Sept? 1942. So that shortens the time frame significantly.

Still twice the time of the Mad Cow burnings.

Then you need to consider that the British were using over 950 pyre sites to burn their carcasses. And how many pyre sites did the Germans have going at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka? Three pyre sites? And how big were these pyre sites?

And were these 950 pyre sites used simultaneously? 24/7?

According to the real historians who have objectively studied this dark period, these massive pyres were burning within a 200 x 250 meter plot of land alongside the old gas chambers, the new gas chambers, and the prisoner barracks.

yes, so?

Yeah, personal incredulity does make me question some of the details here.

And you're unwilling or too lazy to find the answers yourself.