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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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And you're okay with that? Of course you are.

You know what? No, I'm not ok with it at all because her fabrication of a story devalues the stories of other people. Her fabrications give fatuous denialist jackwads material to twist around as "evidence" to support a position that's demonstrably retarded , so no, I'm not ok with it and neither is any legitimate historian.
 
Gene, once again, when are you going to get around to posting the list of valid points made by deniers in this thread? When are you going to answer all the questions posed to you? Why did you say you were leaving the thread only to keep posting? Is being dishonest a virtue with deniers?
 
Gene, once again, when are you going to get around to posting the list of valid points made by deniers in this thread? When are you going to answer all the questions posed to you? Why did you say you were leaving the thread only to keep posting? Is being dishonest a virtue with deniers?

1)First of all I never said that I would "post a list of valid points made by deniers on this thread". This was a silly demand made by a gaggle of exterminationist enthusiasts here. I don't take orders from the peanut gallery, sorry. However if you'll peruse my posts you will find several valid points made by revisionists in them that were brought to my attention by some o those who posted here.

2)I will answer any questions I choose when I feel that I have something to add which will clarify my position.

3)I never said that I "was leaving the thread". That is a flat out lie.

4)Is mistating and twisting the facts standard procedure for you?
 
1)First of all I never said that I would "post a list of valid points made by deniers on this thread". This was a silly demand made by a gaggle of exterminationist enthusiasts here. I don't take orders from the peanut gallery, sorry. However if you'll peruse my posts you will find several valid points made by revisionists in them that were brought to my attention by some o those who posted here.

2)I will answer any questions I choose when I feel that I have something to add which will clarify my position.

3)I never said that I "was leaving the thread". That is a flat out lie.

4)Is mistating and twisting the facts standard procedure for you?

Wow, what a cop out.
 
1)First of all I never said that I would "post a list of valid points made by deniers on this thread". This was a silly demand made by a gaggle of exterminationist enthusiasts here.

A "silly demand" that you back up what you're spouting. I'll take this as an admission that no valid points have been made by deniers in this thread.

I don't take orders from the peanut gallery, sorry. However if you'll peruse my posts you will find several valid points made by revisionists in them that were brought to my attention by some o those who posted here.

No, no such valid points exist in your posts.

2)I will answer any questions I choose when I feel that I have something to add which will clarify my position.

Answering the posed questions would clarify your position. That you chose not to can only be taken as an admission that you are unable to answer the questions.

3)I never said that I "was leaving the thread". That is a flat out lie.

My mistake. You simply announced that you would be running from any and all questions posed to you.

4)Is mistating and twisting the facts standard procedure for you?

No. Is lying and running from your lies when you're called on them standard procedure for you?
 
Most "real historians" are those who go along to get along.

Most real historians live to find new discoveries, change the narative, bring a new insight to facts and documents. The ones who go along to get along are those who ignore facts and documents that they don't like and avoid answering challenges to their interpretation...

History, like all true scholarship, evolves with the facts, testimony & documents. The one thing you can say about revisionism (at least holocaust revisionism) is that it doesn't evolve ... its arguments and the "facts" it points to never change. Discredit those facts and a denier will just state it again as if nothing has happened and than, inevitably, claim that they are being honest and faithful to the search for truth.
 
You know what? No, I'm not ok with it at all because her fabrication of a story devalues the stories of other people. Her fabrications give fatuous denialist jackwads material to twist around as "evidence" to support a position that's demonstrably retarded , so no, I'm not ok with it and neither is any legitimate historian.
Which is the point of Dr Neander's concluding remarks. And, ironically, as Dr Neander wrote in a passage which Clayton Moore either does not understand or is intentionally mangling, Mrs Zisblatt's lies also devalue her own story.
 
You know what? No, I'm not ok with it at all because her fabrication of a story devalues the stories of other people. Her fabrications give fatuous denialist jackwads material to twist around as "evidence" to support a position that's demonstrably retarded , so no, I'm not ok with it and neither is any legitimate historian.

The jackwads allow and enable her to reinforce lies with the exact same type of lies. She doesn't tell the truth because the truth would be so benign it would prove the Holocaust Holocalm.
 
Really? That, minus the deliberate murders, the mere fact that millions of Jews were torn up from the roots and that Jewish culture and society in Eastern Europe, which had flourished for a thousand years, was utterly and permanently destroyed? That would be nothing?

Do you not see why people think you hate Jews?
 
All of which relates to the history how? That credulous and well meaning people, who are not as careful and lack the skills of a historian like Dr Neander, err is not exactly news. But that's another topic: the question for you is what does popular promotion of some errors, mixed in with accurate material, have to do with whether not 5.1 million Jews were slaughtered by the Nazis and their allies during WWII? Your point mystifies me. Dr Neander has critiqued the book--and spent a good deal of effort doing so--Spielberg neglected to do so. So what does this mean for the history? What is Dr Neander misrepresenting and why does the gullibility of non-historians raise doubt about the work of historians who sort through this sort of stuff as an occupational hazard?

How naive. Neander probably spent 2 hours reading the "book" and an hour keying into his blog. And Spielberg neglected to do so. I'm sure Spielberg knew exactly what was what and ignored the lies and rolled with them.

The woman told lies because she had no traumatic experiences of her own.

So now the gullibility of non-historians, the school children, means that historians have no responsibility to stop the perpetuation of Holocaust lies.
 
Really? That, minus the deliberate murders, the mere fact that millions of Jews were torn up from the roots and that Jewish culture and society in Eastern Europe, which had flourished for a thousand years, was utterly and permanently destroyed? That would be nothing?

Do you not see why people think you hate Jews?

You certainly twisted that like a half eaten tootsie roll.

There's the Holohoax which is your Holocaust.
There's the Holocaust which my version of the Holocaust

millions of Jews were torn up from the roots and that Jewish culture and society in Eastern Europe, which had flourished for a thousand years, was utterly and permanently destroyed

My Holocaust, in comparison to your genocidal nonsense of the Holohoax, is a Holocalm.

Save the drama for someone who.....
 
You certainly twisted that like a half eaten tootsie roll.

There's the Holohoax which is your Holocaust.
There's the Holocaust which my version of the Holocaust

millions of Jews were torn up from the roots and that Jewish culture and society in Eastern Europe, which had flourished for a thousand years, was utterly and permanently destroyed

My Holocaust, in comparison to your genocidal nonsense of the Holohoax, is a Holocalm.

Save the drama for someone who.....

But your holocaust is based on ignorance and misunderstandings and exists only in your head. In the real world, the holocaust happened as history describes. Details change - that's proper revisionism - but the basic facts remain.

That you cannot accept that it actually happened has no bearing on the real world. The only one suffering from your ignorance is you.
 
Don't make me laugh. Holocaust education (at least here in Europe) is about warning against the dangers of (racial) prejudice. Not about blaming the Germans. I think only the limited prejudiced mind of a racist/holocaust denier interprets the Holocaust as an accusation against the Germans.
I once made notes on the content of what is taught about the Holocaust as part of the standard curriculum in the US. I used them as the basis for a post or PM or something, which I can find. Here’s the gist:

To analyze the content of the curriculum I surveyed a few standard textbooks used in grades six through twelve. This is because textbooks largely make up or support the content of instruction in most school districts. Teachers, of course, stray from curriculum prescription, but, with the increasing role of high stakes assessments and of standards-based instruction in the US, straying from standard curriculum is less and less common. There is an imperfect but close correspondence between the contents of textbooks and what is actually taught in classrooms.
 I looked primarily at content topics and quantity, not at perspective, framing, or other qualitative factors. I did this to estimate average exposure to instruction about the Holocaust.

For this exercise, I assumed that all students take a world history course in middle school and a social studies course each year; in fact, however, geography and state studies are very strong offerings in middle school, to some extent crowding out exposure to the Holocaust; therefore, my method necessarily overestimates student exposure to the Holocaust in the school courses.

A review of a typical grades 6-12 sequence of social studies textbooks shows a total of around 6,700 pages, of which teachers will certainly not cover the full sweep, maybe only two-thirds.

 So assuming 4,500 pages taught, and assuming that every page on the Holocaust is taught, that is, none of the dropped material is on the Holocaust, it is possible to estimate a percentage of social studies instruction devoted to the Holocaust and an absolute time estimate for this instruction as well, assuming instruction and textbook mirror each other.

I counted an average of 20 pages on the Holocaust in the seven book sequence making up grades 6-12—or less than one-half of one percent of the total pages.
This figure is for the Holocaust broadly conceived, that is, under “Holocaust” I counted background on Nazi racial policies leading up to and including the exterminations and including the liberation of the camps and post-war trials.

Most of the books surveyed formally define Holocaust as the mass murder of Jews by the National Socialists, but they confuse the issue by implying that other crimes—Kristallnacht; Nuremberg Laws; murder of gays, Gypsies, the disabled, and Slavs—are part of the formal Holocaust, including this material under sections headed “The Holocaust.”



At any rate, this 0.5% of a student's time spent on social sciences and history devoted to the Holocaust, as we will see, also includes material on the 1930s, material on non-Jews, and so on.



With 186 days in a school year, the typical student will attend school something like 1,300 days, give or take, for grades 6-12. Let’s generously say a student makes it to school in his or her middle and high school career a total of 1,300 days, with zero absences, and does not drop out, as about 30% of American high schoolers do. One half of one percent of 1,300 days is 6.5 days, with each day having a 30- to 45-minute period of instruction for social studies. That is, a student will have about one period, or about 45 minutes, per year for coverage of the Holocaust, broadly conceived.

 Maximum. And actually blended in with other coverage of WWII. A third of these days will be in 10th grade when students will read, if they bother, the equivalent of maybe two pages of this discussion forum on the Holocaust.

This coverage is lumpy, as noted above, with a tenth grade world history book containing almost a third of the pages counted for the seven grades 6 through 12. About 10% of American students drop out of school in the ninth grade and never reach the grade level where most of the Holocaust content is covered.

Looking in more depth at the tenth grade, we find that a typical textbook contains 1,220 page with just 6 pages on “the Holocaust,” enough material supposedly to sustain a 30- to 45-minute period of instruction—or maybe two such periods in this grade level. In one such tenth-grade book, chosen at random, the topics jammed into six pages include the following, in 36 paragraphs:

-* Profile of Wladyslaw Szpilman, Jewish pianist, survivor Warsaw ghetto (ghetto described only as a confined section of Warsaw into which Jews were forced) (4 paragraphs)

-* Nazi anti-Semitism (Versailles, Nuremberg Laws – defined in a short phrase as creating separate status for Jews, barriers to Jewish emigration during Depression years, Jews remaining in Germany by 1941) (4 paragraphs)


-* Jews of Europe coming under NS control in early war years (1 paragraph)


-* Ghetto, example of Warsaw, starvation (1 paragraph)

-* Concentration camps (not death camps), described as slave labor camps, sites for medical experiments and starvation (1 paragraph)


-* Mobile killing units in Poland and USSR, including Babi Yar (“nearly 35,000 Jews were murdered”) (2 paragraphs)

-* Death camps, explained as a way to stop leaving evidence of murder behind, Auschwitz cited, implication that Auschwitz had only killing camp (1 paragraph)

-* Victims, listing Jews (6 million dead), Poles, Slavs, homosexuals, the disabled, and the Romany (5 million “other” dead), Jews were “suffered the most under the Nazis” (2 paragraphs)

-* World reaction, little response from Allies, WRB, decision not to bomb railroads, “apathy and anti-Semitism” among Allies, discovery of camps (Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, Dachau, implying the latter was a death camp) (8 paragraphs)

-* Document study - Leon Bass (Buchenwald liberator), Maximilian Grabner (Auschwitz Gestapo chief, confession), Herman Graebe (German eyewitness in Ukraine), Howard Elting (US official in Switzerland, Reigner’s report) (4 paragraphs)

-* Nuremberg trials, focusing on war crimes and mentioning Holocaust (1 paragraph)

-* Also, ¼ page photo of Buchenwald prisoners, head shot of Mengele, ¼ page photo of Wladyslaw Szpilman

-* Small graph on Jewish population in Europe, before and after the Holocaust

-* Sidebar on Ann Frank (3 paragraphs)

-* Forensics in history sidebar on discovery of Mengele’s body (focused on DNA match, short note on Mengele’s notoriety not mentioning Auschwitz and simply citing medical experiments, without details) (4 paragraphs)

Stepping back again to look at the span of grades 6-12, students will, in the books I surveyed, encounter Anne Frank and Babi Yar each on two occasions ; read three times about Auschwitz--on each occasion in a sentence or two or three; learn that Slavs, Gypsies, and the disabled were among the victims of the Nazis; and read the name Treblinka in passing as a death camp. They will learn that 6 million Jews were murdered by shootings, gassings, starvation, and labor.

Students will not, however, “learn,” as denier tracts would suggest they would, that 6 million Jews were gassed, that 4 million people died at Auschwitz, that victims’ bodies were used to manufacture soap and make lampshades, or that toddlers watched Hitler kill inmates in the KZs.

But neither will students learn about the Kommissarbefehl, murders of Red Army POWs or other war crimes (reprisals, etc.), the workings of the gas chambers, the contents of the EG operational situation reports, the differences between AR camps and Auschwitz (they won’t, in fact, learn about AR camps), the various uses of the camps making up the Auschwitz complex, Dora, the T4 or 14f13 programs, the Warsaw Ghetto revolt, the nature of Mengele’s medical experiments, or the debate between intentionalists and functionalists, although the coverage in each book has a distinct intentionalist implication. Readers will likely conclude that Bergen-Belsen and Dachau were death camps, that the Wansee conference ordered construction of gas chambers, that the events were neatly plotted out, that prussic acid gas poured from special wall vents in gas chambers at the death camps, and that the Third Reich attempted to exterminate all homosexuals.

The names Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, and Goering will not be encountered. Let alone Frank, Globocnik, Seyss-Inquart, Dannecker, Hoess, Lohse, Bach-Zelewksi. And so on.And so on.

Students will read more about Allied responses and the liberation of the camps than they will about the twisted road to mass murder, the structure of the mass murder program, and the actions and programs themselves.

Without analyzing the text in these books more deeply, one might conclude that an underlying problem with the treatment of the Holocaust in schools stems not from the overwhelming attention given it but rather from the very opposite: the brevity of coverage and thus absence of depth given to these events, which cause the authors and editors to truncate coverage, to make sweeping leaps and misleading statements, and to mention events without really describing or accounting for them. The content is frightfully thin. To give an example, one textbook has five sentences on the mobile killing operations in Poland and the USSR, all of them at a superficial summary level, while another belabors these actions for a full two sentences. Compare this to a typical discussion forum thread at Rodoh on, say, SK1005 or gassing facilities, or the “decision” for extermination of Europe’s Jews, and, well, you get the picture.

The books have errors and rely on a Manichaean approach, overwritten to boot—a bad combination, for sure, when few instructors in the US are well versed in the topic. The material is so skimpy that it doesn’t provide much of a basis for understanding, let alone critical thinking about, the content, an assessment of how events developed, or understanding of systems and structures and what they meant for people.

What I concluded from this is that Holocaust education in the US is almost non-existent, a condition which causes inaccuracies, and generally deficient coverage, --coverage that consistently does not make use of current scholarship--and, except for those who seek it out and obtain it through non-standard channels, most US students will not have anything resembling education in the Holocaust.

So when Clayton Moore spins a common denier meme like this
The purveyors of the Holocaust realized the Holocaust could become a cloak of invulnerability to criticism. Hence the required SCREAMING WHEEL heard in every school in the USA
it really makes me chuckle for his sheer audacious ignorance of the true state of affairs. We in the US do not as a matter of course educate public school kids about the Holocaust, whether for them to learn the history or to connect that history to issues involving racial bigotry.
 
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How naive. Neander probably spent 2 hours reading the "book" and an hour keying into his blog. And Spielberg neglected to do so. I'm sure Spielberg knew exactly what was what and ignored the lies and rolled with them.

The woman told lies because she had no traumatic experiences of her own.

So now the gullibility of non-historians, the school children, means that historians have no responsibility to stop the perpetuation of Holocaust lies.
No, Dr Neander has spent a great deal of time researching the Holocaust. When confronting the Zisblatt "memoir," he used what he had learned, and his knowledge of sources, to spend additional time and effort deconstructing Mrs Zisblatt's story. Dr Neander has also spent a great deal of time and effort deconstructing the myth of Jewish soap, because he believes that the truth about the Holocaust is harmed when myths about it are supported.

As to Spielberg, I assume he didn't do significant research or have his staff do it, on Mrs Zisblatt. So, yes, they neglected to do what they should have. You will probably construe this as giving Spielberg a pass. I mean it to say they flunked on Mrs Zisblatt.

I asked you before: What research have you done on Mrs Zisblatt to know that your claims are correct? I now ask also what research you have done on Dr Neander to make the statements you make about him? And I ask also how you know that Spielberg knew that Mrs Zisblatt was lying and ran with it anyway?
 
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I once made notes on the content of what is taught about the Holocaust as part of the standard curriculum in the US. I used them as the basis for a post or PM or something, which I can find. Here’s the gist:

To analyze the content of the curriculum I surveyed a few standard textbooks used in grades six through twelve. This is because textbooks largely make up or support the content of instruction in most school districts. Teachers, of course, stray from curriculum prescription, but, with the increasing role of high stakes assessments and of standards-based instruction in the US, straying from standard curriculum is less and less common. There is an imperfect but close correspondence between the contents of textbooks and what is actually taught in classrooms.
 I looked primarily at content topics and quantity, not at perspective, framing, or other qualitative factors. I did this to estimate average exposure to instruction about the Holocaust.

For this exercise, I assumed that all students take a world history course in middle school and a social studies course each year; in fact, however, geography and state studies are very strong offerings in middle school, to some extent crowding out exposure to the Holocaust; therefore, my method necessarily overestimates student exposure to the Holocaust in the school courses.

A review of a typical grades 6-12 sequence of social studies textbooks shows a total of around 6,700 pages, of which teachers will certainly not cover the full sweep, maybe only two-thirds.

 So assuming 4,500 pages taught, and assuming that every page on the Holocaust is taught, that is, none of the dropped material is on the Holocaust, it is possible to estimate a percentage of social studies instruction devoted to the Holocaust and an absolute time estimate for this instruction as well, assuming instruction and textbook mirror each other.

I counted an average of 20 pages on the Holocaust in the seven book sequence making up grades 6-12—or less than one-half of one percent of the total pages.
This figure is for the Holocaust broadly conceived, that is, under “Holocaust” I counted background on Nazi racial policies leading up to and including the exterminations and including the liberation of the camps and post-war trials.

Most of the books surveyed formally define Holocaust as the mass murder of Jews by the National Socialists, but they confuse the issue by implying that other crimes—Kristallnacht; Nuremberg Laws; murder of gays, Gypsies, the disabled, and Slavs—are part of the formal Holocaust, including this material under sections headed “The Holocaust.”



At any rate, this 0.5% of a student's time spent on social sciences and history devoted to the Holocaust, as we will see, also includes material on the 1930s, material on non-Jews, and so on.



With 186 days in a school year, the typical student will attend school something like 1,300 days, give or take, for grades 6-12. Let’s generously say a student makes it to school in his or her middle and high school career a total of 1,300 days, with zero absences, and does not drop out, as about 30% of American high schoolers do. One half of one percent of 1,300 days is 6.5 days, with each day having a 30- to 45-minute period of instruction for social studies. That is, a student will have about one period, or about 45 minutes, per year for coverage of the Holocaust, broadly conceived.

 Maximum. And actually blended in with other coverage of WWII. A third of these days will be in 10th grade when students will read, if they bother, the equivalent of maybe two pages of this discussion forum on the Holocaust.

This coverage is lumpy, as noted above, with a tenth grade world history book containing almost a third of the pages counted for the seven grades 6 through 12. About 10% of American students drop out of school in the ninth grade and never reach the grade level where most of the Holocaust content is covered.

Looking in more depth at the tenth grade, we find that a typical textbook contains 1,220 page with just 6 pages on “the Holocaust,” enough material supposedly to sustain a 30- to 45-minute period of instruction—or maybe two such periods in this grade level. In one such tenth-grade book, chosen at random, the topics jammed into six pages include the following, in 36 paragraphs:

-* Profile of Wladyslaw Szpilman, Jewish pianist, survivor Warsaw ghetto (ghetto described only as a confined section of Warsaw into which Jews were forced) (4 paragraphs)

-* Nazi anti-Semitism (Versailles, Nuremberg Laws – defined in a short phrase as creating separate status for Jews, barriers to Jewish emigration during Depression years, Jews remaining in Germany by 1941) (4 paragraphs)


-* Jews of Europe coming under NS control in early war years (1 paragraph)


-* Ghetto, example of Warsaw, starvation (1 paragraph)

-* Concentration camps (not death camps), described as slave labor camps, sites for medical experiments and starvation (1 paragraph)


-* Mobile killing units in Poland and USSR, including Babi Yar (“nearly 35,000 Jews were murdered”) (2 paragraphs)

-* Death camps, explained as a way to stop leaving evidence of murder behind, Auschwitz cited, implication that Auschwitz had only killing camp (1 paragraph)

-* Victims, listing Jews (6 million dead), Poles, Slavs, homosexuals, the disabled, and the Romany (5 million “other” dead), Jews were “suffered the most under the Nazis” (2 paragraphs)

-* World reaction, little response from Allies, WRB, decision not to bomb railroads, “apathy and anti-Semitism” among Allies, discovery of camps (Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen, Dachau, implying the latter was a death camp) (8 paragraphs)

-* Document study - Leon Bass (Buchenwald liberator), Maximilian Grabner (Auschwitz Gestapo chief, confession), Herman Graebe (German eyewitness in Ukraine), Howard Elting (US official in Switzerland, Reigner’s report) (4 paragraphs)

-* Nuremberg trials, focusing on war crimes and mentioning Holocaust (1 paragraph)

-* Also, ¼ page photo of Buchenwald prisoners, head shot of Mengele, ¼ page photo of Wladyslaw Szpilman

-* Small graph on Jewish population in Europe, before and after the Holocaust

-* Sidebar on Ann Frank (3 paragraphs)

-* Forensics in history sidebar on discovery of Mengele’s body (focused on DNA match, short note on Mengele’s notoriety not mentioning Auschwitz and simply citing medical experiments, without details) (4 paragraphs)

Stepping back again to look at the span of grades 6-12, students will, in the books I surveyed, encounter Anne Frank and Babi Yar each on two occasions ; read three times about Auschwitz--on each occasion in a sentence or two or three; learn that Slavs, Gypsies, and the disabled were among the victims of the Nazis; and read the name Treblinka in passing as a death camp. They will learn that 6 million Jews were murdered by shootings, gassings, starvation, and labor.

Students will not, however, “learn,” as denier tracts would suggest they would, that 6 million Jews were gassed, that 4 million people died at Auschwitz, that victims’ bodies were used to manufacture soap and make lampshades, or that toddlers watched Hitler kill inmates in the KZs.

But neither will students learn about the Kommissarbefehl, murders of Red Army POWs or other war crimes (reprisals, etc.), the workings of the gas chambers, the contents of the EG operational situation reports, the differences between AR camps and Auschwitz (they won’t, in fact, learn about AR camps), the various uses of the camps making up the Auschwitz complex, Dora, the T4 or 14f13 programs, the Warsaw Ghetto revolt, the nature of Mengele’s medical experiments, or the debate between intentionalists and functionalists, although the coverage in each book has a distinct intentionalist implication. Readers will likely conclude that Bergen-Belsen and Dachau were death camps, that the Wansee conference ordered construction of gas chambers, that the events were neatly plotted out, that prussic acid gas poured from special wall vents in gas chambers at the death camps, and that the Third Reich attempted to exterminate all homosexuals.

The names Himmler, Heydrich, Eichmann, and Goering will not be encountered. Let alone Frank, Globocnik, Seyss-Inquart, Dannecker, Hoess, Lohse, Bach-Zelewksi. And so on.And so on.

Students will read more about Allied responses and the liberation of the camps than they will about the twisted road to mass murder, the structure of the mass murder program, and the actions and programs themselves.

Without analyzing the text in these books more deeply, one might conclude that an underlying problem with the treatment of the Holocaust in schools stems not from the overwhelming attention given it but rather from the very opposite: the brevity of coverage and thus absence of depth given to these events, which cause the authors and editors to truncate coverage, to make sweeping leaps and misleading statements, and to mention events without really describing or accounting for them. The content is frightfully thin. To give an example, one textbook has five sentences on the mobile killing operations in Poland and the USSR, all of them at a superficial summary level, while another belabors these actions for a full two sentences. Compare this to a typical discussion forum thread at Rodoh on, say, SK1005 or gassing facilities, or the “decision” for extermination of Europe’s Jews, and, well, you get the picture.

The books have errors and rely on a Manichaean approach, overwritten to boot—a bad combination, for sure, when few instructors in the US are well versed in the topic. The material is so skimpy that it doesn’t provide much of a basis for understanding, let alone critical thinking about, the content, an assessment of how events developed, or understanding of systems and structures and what they meant for people.

What I concluded from this is that Holocaust education in the US is almost non-existent, a condition which causes inaccuracies, and generally deficient coverage, --coverage that consistently does not make use of current scholarship--and, except for those who seek it out and obtain it through non-standard channels, most US students will not have anything resembling education in the Holocaust.

So when Clayton Moore spins a common denier meme like this it really makes me chuckle for his sheer audacious ignorance of the true state of affairs. We in the US do not as a matter of course educate public school kids about the Holocaust, whether for them to learn the history or to connect that history to issues involving racial bigotry.

That's crap. The purpose of Holocaustmania is to instill that any activities of Jewish groups are beyond reproach and to question them is antisemitic and an attempt to instigate genocide against Jewish people.
 
That's crap. The purpose of Holocaustmania is to instill that any activities of Jewish groups are beyond reproach and to question them is antisemitic and an attempt to instigate genocide against Jewish people.
A reasoned and measured response and yet . . . perhaps you haven't done your homework: I sat down and analyzed the content of the curriculum. And it showed, in fact, to your point, that there is nothing remotely approaching "Holocaustmania" in the core of public education in the US. A single class period a year, instructed by a teacher not trained or knowledgeable in the topic. That's it, Clayton. That's the reality behind your drama act.
 
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No, Dr Neander has spent a great deal of time researching the Holocaust. When confronting the Zisblatt "memoir," he used what he had learned, and his knowledge of sources, to spend additional time and effort deconstructing Mrs Zisblatt's story. Dr Neander has also spent a great deal of time and effort deconstructing the myth of Jewish soap, because he believes that the truth about the Holocaust is harmed when myths about it are supported.

As to Spielberg, I assume he didn't do significant research or have his staff do it, on Mrs Zisblatt. So, yes, they neglected to do what they should have. You will probably construe this as giving Spielberg a pass. I mean it to say they flunked on Mrs Zisblatt.

I asked you before: What research have you done on Mrs Zisblatt to know that your claims are correct? I now ask also what research you have done on Dr Neander to make the statements you make about him? And I ask also how you know that Spielberg knew that Mrs Zisblatt was lying and ran with it anyway?

What is it with you? Those questions are ridiculous.
 
What is it with you? Those questions are ridiculous.
You made claims - and ugly accusations in fact - about Dr Neander and Steven Spielberg. You also claim to know enough about Mrs Zisblatt to say that Dr Neander is wrong about her. My questions are not ridiculous: what is ridiculous is making claims that can't be supported, which are based on opinion and not sources, and then hiding behind mock outrage to avoid having to explain oneself.
 
No, Dr Neander has spent a great deal of time researching the Holocaust. When confronting the Zisblatt "memoir," he used what he had learned, and his knowledge of sources, to spend additional time and effort deconstructing Mrs Zisblatt's story. Dr Neander has also spent a great deal of time and effort deconstructing the myth of Jewish soap, because he believes that the truth about the Holocaust is harmed when myths about it are supported.

As to Spielberg, I assume he didn't do significant research or have his staff do it, on Mrs Zisblatt. So, yes, they neglected to do what they should have. You will probably construe this as giving Spielberg a pass. I mean it to say they flunked on Mrs Zisblatt.

I asked you before: What research have you done on Mrs Zisblatt to know that your claims are correct? I now ask also what research you have done on Dr Neander to make the statements you make about him? And I ask also how you know that Spielberg knew that Mrs Zisblatt was lying and ran with it anyway?

My claims? How about I use Neander's claims?

My comments on Neander asked if he was going to tour and tell all those children who Zisblatt lied to that she did indeed lie to them.

And I certainly don't think Spielberg and his staff were too stupid to not recognize her book was a bunch of lies. When something is far fetched you don't run to the library to research it, do you? I don't.

Nice touch how the educators don't teach about the phantom gas chambers. We can call that the Winston De Ike skeleton conundrum.

The biggest demonetization of the Germans gets another no call. What a joke.
 
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