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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Looking at the pictures posted at IIP, I noticed what looks to be a very similar knife in Amanda's kitchen. Does anyone know if this was tested?

Reviewing the test results index I see where only 3 knives were tested. Two clasp knives of Raffaele's and the large kitchen utensil with the disputed DNA results.

Does it make any sense that they would not test any of the knives found in Meredith's flat? Am I missing something?
 
I wish this trial would stop making the American system look good.

The American 'judicial' system needs a real beatdown too! Read today that someone was saying that "everybody knows that the American 'judicial' system is the best in the world". Tell that to the Americans who were innocent and executed. Tell the Innocent Americans who've spent their lives in jail that the American system is "The best in the world".

I've been trying to get Americans to just consider that their system is flawed for years. Then the Amanda Knox case comes along and not only steals the show, but makes the American system look fantastic in comparison.

You can't fix it if you can't see that it is broken.

The guilters say that the appeals process shows that the system is working. Four years in jail for Amanda and Raffaele is nothing. Heck, the guilters did that time at home standing on their heads. The guilters forget the millions spent on the defense as if the defendants had nothing better to do with the money. And the guilters forget the mental anguish caused to the defendants and the families.

Do I make the mistake of thinking the guilter thought process is identical to that of the pro-innocent group?
 
I agree with you on the hair, but the other sample 199 is a presumed blood stain. That is the one they got a positive TMB test on but a negatory on the human antibody test (However see my post and questions on Rep 1) and also negative on the DNA test.



Does anyone have a picture of this window containing both the R and the S designating the locations of these two pieces of evidence? I am interested if the locations make sense in terms of a real break in.

http://perugiamurderfile.net/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1174

There are other photos on various forums which focus closer on the locations (R and S)
 
I agree with you on the hair, but the other sample 199 is a presumed blood stain. That is the one they got a positive TMB test on but a negatory on the human antibody test (However see my post and questions on Rep 1) and also negative on the DNA test.



Does anyone have a picture of this window containing both the R and the S designating the locations of these two pieces of evidence? I am interested if the locations make sense in terms of a real break in.


hendry3.jpg
 
Twitter Updates

I believe it is this coming Monday the 25th and the DNA expert report will be discussed. Hopefully we will get live twitter updates as before so we can comment in real time as the hearing progresses.[/QUOTE

Who does the twitter updates?
 
What we got here is 16 peaks

What about reasonable doubt? The way the clasp was handled when stored and the risk - however small it may be - that the traces of Sollecito's DNA is contamination should make the bra clasp very poor evidence of guilt. That's all anyone's arguing, even though the believers in innocence tend to think the risk of contamination is high or probable or likely or sure or what you want.

If I was a lay judge in a case where I believed strongly in the guilt of the accused; I still wouldn't see this as evidence of guilt and would disregard it, due to too much uncertainties.
I see this particular evidence as one more arrow pointing to the defendant. Conti & Vecchiotti confirm Sollecito's traces on the clasp and they do not prove or demonstrate contamination for Sollecito's traces on it.

I would reject the clasp evidence if C&V had not confirmed Sollecito's traces on it. 16 peaks on the clasp coincide with Sollecito's 16 peaks on his saliva swab.
 
I see this particular evidence as one more arrow pointing to the defendant. Conti & Vecchiotti confirm Sollecito's traces on the clasp and they do not prove or demonstrate contamination for Sollecito's traces on it.

I would reject the clasp evidence if C&V had not confirmed Sollecito's traces on it. 16 peaks on the clasp coincide with Sollecito's 16 peaks on his saliva swab.

Piktor, the defense do not need to prove or demonstrate contamination. It is enough to show that collection procedures were not followed- these procedures exist so that contamination can be ruled out. If they were not followed, contamination can't be ruled out, resulting in the evidentiary value of the item being diminshed.
If C & V report that collection and storage procedures were not followed, then them confirming RS's DNA should have no relevance.
 
I agree with you on the hair, but the other sample 199 is a presumed blood stain. That is the one they got a positive TMB test on but a negatory on the human antibody test (However see my post and questions on Rep 1) and also negative on the DNA test.



Does anyone have a picture of this window containing both the R and the S designating the locations of these two pieces of evidence? I am interested if the locations make sense in terms of a real break in.

I also wanted to add to my prior post (I did not realize the forum is now moderated so couldn't edit after posting) that on the Injusticeinperugia site there are several close up photos in the gallery of the R location. I am not sure if on the sill in one of the photos is the hair mentioned in the report, however, it does give the appearance of a thin strand of hair. It may also be an illusion (reflection) from photography or a mark in the sill so I cannot be certain.
 
I see this particular evidence as one more arrow pointing to the defendant. Conti & Vecchiotti confirm Sollecito's traces on the clasp and they do not prove or demonstrate contamination for Sollecito's traces on it.

I would reject the clasp evidence if C&V had not confirmed Sollecito's traces on it. 16 peaks on the clasp coincide with Sollecito's 16 peaks on his saliva swab.

Piktor are you sure Conti & Vecchiotti confirm Rafaelle DNA on the clasp,I am pretty sure that they do not agree that Rafaelle's DNA profile is on the bra clasp,further more they clearly state that the collection,transportation,storage and DNA testing was carried out in such an unprofessional manner so as to make contamination inevitable that it would not be of any evidentiary value if it was
 
Piktor, the defense do not need to prove or demonstrate contamination. It is enough to show that collection procedures were not followed- these procedures exist so that contamination can be ruled out. If they were not followed, contamination can't be ruled out, resulting in the evidentiary value of the item being diminshed.
If C & V report that collection and storage procedures were not followed, then them confirming RS's DNA should have no relevance.
It comes down to Stefanoni's "stutter" versus C&V's "other minor contributor/contributors".

It sounds to me a matter of academic opinion. The traces that matter are the ones that belong to Sollecito, identified by name and also called a major contributor.

This trial is an accruement of facts and evidence that form a narrative. It is a circumstantial case. Italian rules apply, not English or American rules.

I see it as one more arrow pointing to the defendant, not as THE arrow pointing to Sollecito.

It is just my layman's opinion. Will the judges fixate on "unreliable" or will they fixate on the 16 Sollecito peaks on the clasp is anyone's guess. I have no idea how the Perugia judges will rule on it.
 
I see this particular evidence as one more arrow pointing to the defendant. Conti & Vecchiotti confirm Sollecito's traces on the clasp and they do not prove or demonstrate contamination for Sollecito's traces on it.

But they do demonstrate it. They demonstrate how there are at least two other male donors of DNA on the clasp and they demonstrate how investigators mishandled the crime scene and the evidence, contaminating it. It's sufficient that Raffaele's DNA is expected to be present in the cottage ( and it was indeed present ) to make contamination with his DNA probable enough to invalidate the results.

They demonstrate how lab contamination can't be excluded because Stefi failed to repeat the tests as recommended, failed to perform negative controls, failed even to make simple test for human cells in the trace.

I expect that those failures of investigators and "scientifica" will get extra attention during the experts' deposition on Monday.
 
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/hendry3.jpg

Rep.198 – Hair formation found between the lower cornice of the left window shutter having the broken glass, indicated in the evidence photographs with the letter “R”, (report of the evidence described carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale of Forensic Police of Perugia) – page 172 A.F./239 R.;
Rep.199 – Sample of presumed blood substance taken of the portion of the wood of the window having the broken glass, indicated in the evidence photographs by the letter “S”,
(report of the evidence described carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale of the Forensic Police of Perugia) – page 172 A.F./239 R.;


Rudyscuts-1.jpg
 
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I also wanted to add to my prior post (I did not realize the forum is now moderated so couldn't edit after posting) that on the Injusticeinperugia site there are several close up photos in the gallery of the R location. I am not sure if on the sill in one of the photos is the hair mentioned in the report, however, it does give the appearance of a thin strand of hair. It may also be an illusion (reflection) from photography or a mark in the sill so I cannot be certain.


This is very interesting both on the blood sample and the hair sample. It is my understanding there is another test they can run on the hair, not just the standard DNA test. On the blood, other samples indicate an initial negative on the antibody test but then they ran with a different type of antibody test to confirm blood (see Rep 1). It almost appears they really did a half-way job on what should have been an important piece of evidence indicating a real break in by a real burglar (named Rudy).
 
It comes down to Stefanoni's "stutter" versus C&V's "other minor contributor/contributors".

It sounds to me a matter of academic opinion. The traces that matter are the ones that belong to Sollecito, identified by name and also called a major contributor.

This trial is an accruement of facts and evidence that form a narrative. It is a circumstantial case. Italian rules apply, not English or American rules.

I see it as one more arrow pointing to the defendant, not as THE arrow pointing to Sollecito.

It is just my layman's opinion. Will the judges fixate on "unreliable" or will they fixate on the 16 Sollecito peaks on the clasp is anyone's guess. I have no idea how the Perugia judges will rule on it.

I believe the fact that the judge hand-picked these 2 experts gives a good indication of the likely ruling. There is a lot more criticism than just Stefi's selection of stutter happening to match any peak that doesn't belong to Sollecito. It amounts to a big NO on the reliability issue.
 
...It is just my layman's opinion. Will the judges fixate on "unreliable" or will they fixate on the 16 Sollecito peaks on the clasp is anyone's guess. I have no idea how the Perugia judges will rule on it.

I highly doubt that it's no more than "anyone's guess".

Assuming, that they hold themselves to a civilized standard, and that they have rules governing judicial reasoning and the admissibility of evidence, Italian judges will not be allowed to rely upon any evidence that independent, court appointed, experts have determined is UN-reliable.

I realize it will be a challenge to the dogmatic beliefs of some, but expect the court to repudiate the claim that the bra clasp and kitchen knife are evidence of guilt against Knox and the boyfriend.
 
It comes down to Stefanoni's "stutter" versus C&V's "other minor contributor/contributors".

It sounds to me a matter of academic opinion. The traces that matter are the ones that belong to Sollecito, identified by name and also called a major contributor.

This trial is an accruement of facts and evidence that form a narrative. It is a circumstantial case. Italian rules apply, not English or American rules.

I see it as one more arrow pointing to the defendant, not as THE arrow pointing to Sollecito.

It is just my layman's opinion. Will the judges fixate on "unreliable" or will they fixate on the 16 Sollecito peaks on the clasp is anyone's guess. I have no idea how the Perugia judges will rule on it.

If you think it through, it's not evidence of anything at all at this stage.

The guilter dogma (before C&V demolished it) was that there was "abundant" DNA from Raffaele on the clasp, and that this proved he had handled it. Now if there really was proof that Raffaele had handled that bra clasp he would have some serious explaining to do. However we now know from the C&V report that there was a tiny amount of DNA-bearing material if there was any at all, that proper tests to confirm that skin cells were present as opposed to the DNA coming from lab contamination were inexplicably not conducted, the test was not replicated and incompetent evidence handling destroyed the bra clasp before it could be re-examined.

Cynics might think that this is consistent with Stefanoni deliberately spiking the test run with Raffaele's DNA by one means or another, and then destroying the evidence so nobody could establish that she had done so. However we'll probably never know.

So take-home message #1 is: We now have is evidence that Raffaele's DNA got on to the bra clasp somehow, but contamination at the scene or contamination at the lab are explanations that cover that fact.

Then, and this is the bit that the guilters don't seem to grasp very well, we have extremely strong evidence that contamination occurred somewhere along the line. The existence of multiple DNA profiles on the clasp means either that lots of murderers handled the clasp (good luck with that theory) or that the DNA of non-murderers got on to that clasp somehow.

So do the math:

1. Raffaele's DNA got there either because he was a murderer, or because the sample was contaminated.
2. We know the bra clasp was contaminated.

Once you have those two facts in hand you no longer need to invoke the zebra hypothesis of a totally unprecedented three-way murder and sexual assault involving people who barely knew each other or did not know each other at all, with no motive and a serious language barrier to overcome to boot. You've got a much more ordinary hypothesis to go to - the bra clasp got contaminated either in a house Raffaele had visited or in a lab storing "abundant" amounts of his DNA from other samples.

I suspect some guilters, the ones not very good at joined-up thinking, might respond by saying something like "Um, er, but there was more of Raffaele's alleles than there were of the other peoples', more! More means something, right? It can't be contamination if it's more. It must mean he handled the bra clasp! I don't understand science but my uninformed guesswork is good enough for me". However absolutely nothing about the laws of the universe says that contaminating material must be a homogenous mix of DNA from every contributing source, and if you think about it that very idea is a bit weird.

With the evidence now in hand concluding that Raffele's DNA was on the bra clasp therefore he handled it at the time of the murder is pretty much like thinking that because your car won't start that the spark plugs have been stolen by midgets. You're ignoring multiple much more likely hypotheses that explain the available facts.
 
<snip>With the evidence now in hand concluding that Raffele's DNA was on the bra clasp therefore he handled it at the time of the murder is pretty much like thinking that because your car won't start that the spark plugs have been stolen by midgets. You're ignoring multiple much more likely hypotheses that explain the available facts.

Forgive me, I haven't been following the DNA discussions. Wasn't the report's conclusion that there was no DNA on the bra clasp?
 
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