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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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komponisto said:
That's not just from the same author; that is an actual quote from the latest post on TJMK!

So, longtime JREFers, what do you think....game over, or what?

(Okay, look: I know that reversed stupidity is not intelligence, and that even the strongest position will attract weak proponents. Undoubtedly, there are astrology believers on the side of innocence too. But they're not...featured on IIP or FOA. I can't imagine Bruce posting a similar article by even the most well-intentioned innocentista to the IIP blog. "Look at which side has the more generally impressive advocates" is a legitimate heuristic for coming to a quick conclusion about which side is more likely to be right. On IIP you'll find articles by research scientists, FBI agents, and forensic engineers; on TJMK you'll see anonymous posters engaging in innuendo, mind-reading, and now astrology. That's the plain truth of the matter.)
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Now, now. You have seriously underestimated the man from Atlan's qualifications:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050206155033/http://manfromatlan.com/maitreya.html
 
Kid Le said:
Now I have a question. In this appeal system, is it possible that the outcome is different for Amanda and Sollicito? For example Amanda is released while Sollicito is found guilty? And what do people think is the likelyhood of that happening, given how the appeal progresses so far?
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Welcome Kid Le,

There are indications that Mignini is thinking the opposite with a revamp of how the murder may have gone down (Amanda directing Raffaele from outside the room).

There has been some discussion that if the computer gives Raffaele an alibi, the same doesn't necessarily hold for Amanda.

These theories are signs of desperation, in my opinion.
 
RoseMontague said:
Now, now. You have seriously underestimated the man from Atlan's qualifications:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050206155033/http://manfromatlan.com/maitreya.html
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Holy Moly! I just read that article. Obviously now I know it was written by Jesus Christ himself I will have to revise my initial opinion of it.

Er, no, I can't. It's self-aggrandising woo of the first order, just as I thought it was when I thought it was written by an idiot. In their favour, nobody seems to have commented on it at TJMK - probably they are too polite to point out that it's a load of codswallop. I do wonder who thought it was worth putting on their front page, though...
 
Looking at the pictures posted at IIP, I noticed what looks to be a very similar knife in Amanda's kitchen. Does anyone know if this was tested?
 

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RoseMontague said:
Now, now. You have seriously underestimated the man from Atlan's qualifications:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050206155033/http://manfromatlan.com/maitreya.html
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:jaw-dropp

And I thought the statement-analysis guy was a nutter. But he was of the harmless wacko kind. This one seems to be of the harmful fake-healer type, preying on desperate people and complete with homeopathic woo and anti-vaccine nonsense. A perfect specimen representative of everything that JREF fights with.
 
I would like to thank Charlie and Bruce for posting the test results at IIP. I am going thru it selectively for now but will look at the whole thing over time. I am interested in rep 198 and 199 (presumed blood and hair on broken window sill). It looks like the "hair" was dark brown(?) and the blood had a positive TMB but was negative on a specific test. The DNA results I am not understanding here. Any help, I would appreciate it.
 

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Katody Matrass said:
:jaw-dropp

And I thought the statement-analysis guy was a nutter. But he was of the harmless wacko kind. This one seems to be of the harmful fake-healer type, preying on desperate people and complete with homeopathic woo and anti-vaccine nonsense. A perfect specimen representative of everything that JREF fights with.
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I thought it was a bit ironic in terms of SB's recent "mothership" comments. Seriously, if I was still on the side of guilt, I would want this post removed. It is just silly nonsense and reflects poorly on TJMK.
 
There's a very strange sort of groupthink scenario going on over there. I've seen it so often in homoeopathy forums, where they ban all dissent as trolling or "bad faith". They shut themselves off from any challenge to their point of view, and settle into a cosy, hermetically-sealed world where they know everything, and each one takes support from and feeds off the others in the group to reinforce their existing preconceptions. This creates a false sense of there being only one side to the argument, which I have to say is perilously close to delusional.

I worry about this in the Lockerbie threads, because we haven't had anyone prepared to make a rational case for guilt, pretty much ever. Some irrational, yes, including the trolling of "the court found him guilty and that's all I need to know", but no reasoned argument that's based on any serious acquaintance with the evidence.

I can only take comfort in the fact that the only person who has ever been banned or even suspended from the Lockerbie discussion was a whack-job conspiracy theorist who thought the CIA set off a huge bomb in the plane by remote control from the ground....

I think a healthy discussion needs people presnting both sides. If you simply can't get anyone to present one side, it's very disconcerting. If you stick your fingers in your ears and label all dissent from your own opinion as "bad faith", you're likely to be in for an unpleasant awakening some day.

It's amusing to watch the homoeopaths, sealed in their little bubble, discussing potencies and aggravations, and reinterpreting everything that happens as evidence for homoeopathy's effectiveness. Seen from the perspective of the real world outside, it's a fascinating psychological case study.

Seeing the same thing going on at PMF is a bit more worrying though. They've got themselves convinced that the court-appointed experts are about to be exposed as ignorant amateurs in the pay of the Knox family, on the basis of some complete ignoramuses playing expert scrutineer. I think they honestly believe they're contributing to the case and the prosecution are eagerly adopting their insightful analysis as a platform from which to shred the expert panel.

This is seriously unhealthy.

Rolfe.
 
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All that energy, all those electrons, that could have been used explaining what evidence still stands up against Knox and Sollecito.

Or what suspension of physiology caused Meredith's duodenum still to be empty five hours after she ate.

Or what evidence, were it to emerge, would cause you to admit to the possibility of reasonable doubt.

No?

Rolfe.
 
messiah manque

RoseMontague said:
Now, now. You have seriously underestimated the man from Atlan's qualifications:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050206155033/http://manfromatlan.com/maitreya.html
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RoseMontague

I am not following here. The man from Atlan appears to be a messiah manque, but how does this relate to Ergon?

pilot padron,

I found this quote from Ergon's article: "she and her boyfriend had provided alibis that were later disproved, there was a staged break in to mislead the investigation, and there was sufficient DNA, blood and foot prints to prove the complicity of the other two accused." Does Ergon refer to Curatolo's disproving their alibi? If so, do you accept Ergon's reasoning? Which "blood and footprints" are meant? The same ones that Dr. Lednev said were probably not blood? If so, whom do you believe? To which DNA evidence does Ergon refer, the same evidence that Conti and Vecchiotti have now discredited? If you agree that Ergon is in error on these points, then why do you refer to TJfMK as being more accurate?
 
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luminol myth debunked

Katody Matrass said:
The opinion from Dr. Lednev you acquired is crushing for the Perugian prosecution, especially given his credentials. It is really worth repeating:
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Katody Matrass,

Thank you very much for your kind words, and thanks are also due to Drs. Virkler and Lednev for taking the time to share their expert voices with us.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
I had no idea there were so many wide spread stressors! It all makes sense now!!!

From Ergon, author of current post on TJMK:

"First, the Astrology. Meredith Kercher, born Dec. 28, 1985, and Rudy Guede, December 26, 1986, are both Capricorns. Raffaele Sollecito, March 26, 1984, is Aries, and Amanda Knox, July 09, 1987, a Cancer. Their signs form a T-Square, at 90 degrees to each other, which are widely seen as indicators of stress and incompatibility. The day of the murder saw widespread stressors on all their horoscopes which would lead to murder, detection, conviction and imprisonment. The Astrology even shows Raffaele's drug dependency and mental confusion on the night of the murder, the conflict between Amanda and Meredith, and the violence and rage that simmered just below the surface of Amanda Knox's psyche."
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Is he using Astrology to explain Guede's murder or is he using Guede's murder to support the incarceration of the innocent?
 
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Are there really people who believe that the Knox family paid these experts? That is the most ridiculous guilter theory yet. Their belief of incompetence by the two neutral experts is a slap in the face to the judge. It is a shame that those believing in guilt are so closed minded. I once believed in guilt until evidence changed my mind. If some shocking new development were to occur, I would be open to change my mind again. It is essential to have an open mind when seeking the truth.
 
If a beautiful absolutely innocent young, intelligent woman spends millions on her defense and is still in jail serving a 26 year sentence for helping Guede in mysterious ways for mysterious reasons, then what hope is there for the rest of us were we similarly framed?
 
RoseMontague said:
I would like to thank Charlie and Bruce for posting the test results at IIP. I am going thru it selectively for now but will look at the whole thing over time. I am interested in rep 198 and 199 (presumed blood and hair on broken window sill). It looks like the "hair" was dark brown(?) and the blood had a positive TMB but was negative on a specific test. The DNA results I am not understanding here. Any help, I would appreciate it.
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On both specimens DNA extraction was performed but DNA quantification returned "too low" ( :) ) result. It means there was not enough DNA for amplification and further testing.
 
RoseMontague said:
The DNA results I am not understanding here. Any help, I would appreciate it.
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Don't bet the farm on the quality of my Italian, Rose, but I think the results should be interpreted as follows: Sample 199, the "presumed biological substance" tested positive for TMB, but negative for an antibody test for human tissue. It was subjected to DNA extraction which did not yield a detectable amount of DNA. For this reason it was judged unsuitable for PCR amplification and electrophoresis. Sample 198, the 6 cm, dark brown, catagen phase hair had a few cells attached to the hair bulb. DNA extraction was performed on the bulb, again with no DNA detectable in the extraction solution, and no further analysis was performed.

Frank Sfarzo has already commented on the incongruity of the approach taken to these samples when compared to the knife blade. In that situation, despite an apparently negative DNA quantification, the decision was made to proceed with PCR amplification using additional replication cycles.

Did Dr. Stefanoni perhaps receive a communication from a certain officer at the questura, who having handled the knife, had reason to believe that there was DNA on the blade?
 
Diastole said:
Don't bet the farm on the quality of my Italian, Rose, but I think the results should be interpreted as follows: Sample 199, the "presumed biological substance" tested positive for TMB, but negative for an antibody test for human tissue. It was subjected to DNA extraction which did not yield a detectable amount of DNA. For this reason it was judged unsuitable for PCR amplification and electrophoresis. Sample 198, the 6 cm, dark brown, catagen phase hair had a few cells attached to the hair bulb. DNA extraction was performed on the bulb, again with no DNA detectable in the extraction solution, and no further analysis was performed.

Frank Sfarzo has already commented on the incongruity of the approach taken to these samples when compared to the knife blade. In that situation, despite an apparently negative DNA quantification, the decision was made to proceed with PCR amplification using additional replication cycles.

Did Dr. Stefanoni perhaps receive a communication from a certain officer at the questura, who having handled the knife, had reason to believe that there was DNA on the blade?
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Wow, just wow. It really was hair then and a positive TMB for blood. On the broken window sill. Of the window that was allegedly broken as part of a staging. Would you describe Amanda or Raffaele's hair as dark brown? How about Rudy's? I think this is the one the defense is asking additional testing on. It will be interesting to see if this is covered in court. I wonder how this sample was "stored"?

Does anyone know the details of the antibody test as it relates to testing human hair? What are the chances of a false negative?
 
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