Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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Also, I was able to get a footlong hotdog and bottomless soda (unlimited refills) at Costco for $1.50. Nothing Amway has compares to that!
Yes, Costco hotdogs are awesome!
Moderated MLM Crap :(
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Yes, Costco hotdogs are awesome!
icerat
Philosopher
So, let me see. Amway is the world's biggest nutrition company, and one of the world's biggest skincare and cosmetics company, the biggest seller of point-of-use home water treatment systems, and the first company to bring biodegradeable cleaning products to the mass market. Virtually all of their sales volume and revenue comes from these categories.
And you want to do a price comparison of soup made by some other company, that just happens to be available from Amway, in a category described as for the convenience of IBOs, not for marketing to customers, and isn't promoted or marketed in anyway by Amway. (except for being available on the website)
Even then, you take the CostCo members price but don't take the Amway members price ($18.39)
Not to mention wanting us to just trust you that that's the price on the shelves at CostCo, since it doesn't show on their website.
But what the heck, let's see what it costs elsewhere!
Progresso® Traditional Chicken Soup Variety 8 / 19 oz. Cans (Amway) - $19.99/$18.39 (members price) - $2.50/$2.30 per can
Here's one variety at Walgreen's for more than $3/can - Amway wins!
here's another one, via Amazon, pack of 12 for $44.99, or $3.75/can - Amway wins!
Here's another one, via Amazon, list price for a pack of 12 is $39.00, or $3.25/can - Amway wins!
but wait! It's on special! Currently you can get a pack for $25.06, or $2.09/can - Amway loses! (on one variety when its on special)
Here's another one, buythecase.net, pack of 12, $39.48, or $3.29/can - Amway wins!
Another, storehouse13.com, pack of 8, $19.99 or $2.50/can - Amway wins!
But wait! It's on special! $16.99 or $2.12/can - Amway loses! (against a product on sale)
This is your product price comparison that is so devastating for Amway?
Oh ... that's right, we just should believe you that costco sells it for $1.50/can when nobody else comes close. I suppose all those other companies are overpriced scammers too .....
And you want to do a price comparison of soup made by some other company, that just happens to be available from Amway, in a category described as for the convenience of IBOs, not for marketing to customers, and isn't promoted or marketed in anyway by Amway. (except for being available on the website)
Even then, you take the CostCo members price but don't take the Amway members price ($18.39)
Not to mention wanting us to just trust you that that's the price on the shelves at CostCo, since it doesn't show on their website.
But what the heck, let's see what it costs elsewhere!
Progresso® Traditional Chicken Soup Variety 8 / 19 oz. Cans (Amway) - $19.99/$18.39 (members price) - $2.50/$2.30 per can
Here's one variety at Walgreen's for more than $3/can - Amway wins!
here's another one, via Amazon, pack of 12 for $44.99, or $3.75/can - Amway wins!
Here's another one, via Amazon, list price for a pack of 12 is $39.00, or $3.25/can - Amway wins!
but wait! It's on special! Currently you can get a pack for $25.06, or $2.09/can - Amway loses! (on one variety when its on special)
Here's another one, buythecase.net, pack of 12, $39.48, or $3.29/can - Amway wins!
Another, storehouse13.com, pack of 8, $19.99 or $2.50/can - Amway wins!
But wait! It's on special! $16.99 or $2.12/can - Amway loses! (against a product on sale)
This is your product price comparison that is so devastating for Amway?
Oh ... that's right, we just should believe you that costco sells it for $1.50/can when nobody else comes close. I suppose all those other companies are overpriced scammers too .....
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Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2003
- Messages
- 20,501
icerat
Philosopher
Uhuh. The vast majority of people who join Amway don't buy them, so why would you factor them in?
I haven't bought any in years.
Can you kindly explain why former IBOs, tens of millions of them gneerally do not continue to purchase these products, once their dream of early retirement and fabulous walth fades away? If the value was there, Amway sales (US and Canada) would be tens of billions by now, but instead, Amway sales have been flat for many years, although I did read about a recent increase in sales.
Secondly, this doesn't change the fact that nearly all IBOs, for whatever reason, make nothing or lose money. That means Amway, regardless of the debate on product quality or pricing, is still a LOUSY business opportunity that is made tenfold worse when factoring in the cds and functions.
But the vast majority of those who buy them and apply them still do not make money in Amway.
icerat
Philosopher
The majority of former IBOs who purchase products continue to do so. Statistics produced in Team vs Quixtar showed that first year renewal rate is a little over 30%. 50% never purchase a product. Assuming that few people who never purchase renew, this means nearly 2 out of 3 people who join Amway, and actually place an order after joining, renew their business for at least one year. Second year renewal rates exceed 75% and third and longer exceed 90%.
The vast majority of them are, like myself, not actively building a business.
(I note that you again simply ignore the research and data already provided that shows most peoples primary motivation is NOT "dreams of early retirement and fabulous wealth)
This also ignores the large numbers of former IBOs who revert to customers. I have a number of former IBOs from my business who continue to purchase products from Amway as customers.
Amway North America sales have increased both of the last two years, and as recently stated when they had their first "billion dollar month" continue to do so.
Prior to that, as you well know, Amway terminated the contracts of more than a large group Diamonds they believed were operating against the rules and potentially illegally, and according to various lawsuits these Diamonds encouraged several hundred thousand of their downline to quit as well. A few years before that, a similar thing occurred with another group.
Only an idiot would think that wouldn't have a significant effect on sales.
Additionally, like any business, Amway is affected by fluctuations in the economy and marketplace.
Only an idiot would think otherwise.
They also, in my opinion, made some dumb decisions which affected all manner of things which would have influenced sales.
I see you've now added "make nothing". I'd certainly agree that the majority don't make any money, for reasons already discussed. Have you any evidence at all to suggest that it covers "nearly all" though?
Right, so your price comparison was shown to be bogus, so now it's a" lousy business opportunity" because, just like any other business, it's affected by market conditions and things like getting rid of hundreds of thousands of reps.
What's your next piece of brilliant reasoning?
icerat
Philosopher
Not in my experience, nor do the statistics support that assertion.
So please provide some evidence to back up that claim.
Here we go, with the Bizzarro world explanations again.
If former IBOs actually were retained as real customers, sales would go up each and every year, especially when about half of the IBO sales force quits each year. But that isn't the case. Icerat knows this but somehow spindoctors the message to make it sound like Amway sales are skyrocketing.
Amway did a billion dollars last month. Great, that's all of Amway or only North America? I thought Amway North America's annual sales were about a billion dollars. Did that increase come from North America or the rest of the world?
Simple. Look at your 6-4-2 plan or whatever version you use. The plan is showing IBOs who actually did something and earned a bonus. The ones who did nothing exist, but are not shown in the plan. Many or most IBOs who earn a bonus are on the system. The system has no correlation to an IBO earning a bonus. If an IBO is serious enough to move enough product for a bonus, they are likely to think the system is worth the investment.
Business Building IBOs on the system will spend anywhere from $150 to $250 or more on the system. (Couples might be more)
If you look at a 6-4-2 plan, it is only the platinum making any money. And there is one platinum in a group of 79 IBOs when you display this plan. Factor in "most" IBOs who did nothing and you have 1 in 79 active IBOs making a significant income, or 1 in 160 to 200 IBOs (active and the do nothings) making a significant income.
The rest make nothing or lose money, save for a couple of 1000 PV IBOs who might make a few dollars. Factor in the tools expenses and for many possibly all groups of business builders, the $$$$ spent on system tools will exceed the bonus earned from Amway.
Yey somehow Icerat is convinced that this is a great business oppoprtunity. It is bizarro world. It shows that educated people are just as susceptible to scams and cults as anyone else.
If former IBOs actually were retained as real customers, sales would go up each and every year, especially when about half of the IBO sales force quits each year. But that isn't the case. Icerat knows this but somehow spindoctors the message to make it sound like Amway sales are skyrocketing.
Amway did a billion dollars last month. Great, that's all of Amway or only North America? I thought Amway North America's annual sales were about a billion dollars. Did that increase come from North America or the rest of the world?
Simple. Look at your 6-4-2 plan or whatever version you use. The plan is showing IBOs who actually did something and earned a bonus. The ones who did nothing exist, but are not shown in the plan. Many or most IBOs who earn a bonus are on the system. The system has no correlation to an IBO earning a bonus. If an IBO is serious enough to move enough product for a bonus, they are likely to think the system is worth the investment.
Business Building IBOs on the system will spend anywhere from $150 to $250 or more on the system. (Couples might be more)
If you look at a 6-4-2 plan, it is only the platinum making any money. And there is one platinum in a group of 79 IBOs when you display this plan. Factor in "most" IBOs who did nothing and you have 1 in 79 active IBOs making a significant income, or 1 in 160 to 200 IBOs (active and the do nothings) making a significant income.
The rest make nothing or lose money, save for a couple of 1000 PV IBOs who might make a few dollars. Factor in the tools expenses and for many possibly all groups of business builders, the $$$$ spent on system tools will exceed the bonus earned from Amway.
Yey somehow Icerat is convinced that this is a great business oppoprtunity. It is bizarro world. It shows that educated people are just as susceptible to scams and cults as anyone else.
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That's only because basically, the IBOs themselves are the only customers save for some downtrodden friends and family of IBOs making sympathy purchases. If WalMart fired or laid off that many employees, their service might be slower but their sales won't suffer a signifcant drop.
Thanks for making the point that Amway sales are almost exclusively to IBOs.
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icerat
Philosopher
Yup you were correct. That definitely is a "bizzarro world" explanation. Can someone translate? I've apparently been away from the english speaking world too long.
Try reading the link. Given you write at least one blog post about Amway every single day, often talking about sales, I'm surprised you know so little about it. (no, just kidding, not surprised at all!)
What on earth are you waffling on about? How is an idealised, simplified example used to explain a concept, and one that doesn't even refer to "tools" evidence that the "majority of those who buy them and apply them still do not make money in Amway"?
Bizzaro world indeed
I assume monthly, sure.
No, in that idealised model every single IBO is making money
Oh I see what you've done ... you've all volume is generated solely by "active" IBOs, all of whom have system expenses.
Heck, since you're just making crap up, why not factor in all of them buying new $10000 quad core laptops and an iPad and paying international roaming mobile data costs?
That should make it look like they're all really losing enormous amounts of money and should just totally prove Amway's a scam
Come on ... stop wasting time and go all in!
Does everyone buy new cars too?
They're making money but all of them on the system has a net loss.
Is a net loss considered a success in Ama World?
icerat
Philosopher
evidence? (he asks ... with zero expectation of a result)
Plenty of evidence. I can't help that you don't get it.
How much does the lowest level IBO (100 PV) make? About $10 bonus from Amway.
How much does standing order cost? Answer: More than $10
How much does voicemail cost? Answer: More than $10
How much do functions cost Answer: Much more than $10 a month average if factoring in major functions.
**And this isn't even factoring in all the IBOs who got sucked into joining and then did nothing.
That's not evidence, that condemning proof.
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Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2003
- Messages
- 20,501
Well how would you know without knowing what their goals are? Maybe their goal was to lose money, did you think of that?
That's the psychological out they give to people. If someone is a failure, they can retroactively say that they "met their goals" by downsizing what their goals actually were. Instead of getting rich or even making a significant contribution to their normal income, they can retroactively say their "goals" were to just run a "hobby business".
But seriously, what kind of hobby is that? If someone really wants to run a hobby business, it's far easier to grow unusual vegetables in their back-yard and sell them at the local farmer's market, or get a bee hive, or take a class in soldering and make gadgets with computer chips and LED lights. Nobody buys into the Amway business plan without thinking they can make some significant money at it.
Income over $100,000, people who would like to be NBA stars =
1 out of a very large number.
Accept the math, basketball is a scam.
It would be if I were being recruited to play basketball.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
icerat
Philosopher
Sorry, but made up numbers don't constitute evidence
Any particular reason you didn't emphasis all the parts where was talking about how great the products were? Sounds like this guy was part of a team trialling an experimental approach based on the Woodward/Brady Team approach. Guess what, it didn't work, it stopped being used and wasn't spread elsewhere.
But gee, I personally even plead guilty for not keeping touch with my business partners who aren't my business partners any more. That's happened in all businesses I've been involved with, including Amway. Terrible isn't it?
I love the way you guys just ignore evidence that doesn't support your belief systems. It's such strong examples of confirmation bias.
Do you consider CostCo membership "a hobby"?
Significant to them. I've had many people who joined my business because they wanted to make a hundred bucks a month.
Not to mention all those who join not because of the business, but because it makes rational sense to get distributor pricing if you're in the habit of purchasing more than $200 worth of Amway products a year. As an aside, Amway North America and also Amway UK have been trialling some approaches to disincentivize registering just for a discount, such as offering free shipping to customers.
icerat
Philosopher
My son is five. We've been getting all sorts of letters from various sports clubs encouraging us to take him to their kids sports days to try it out.
Damn scammers.
Great, we agree then. If you encounter anyone promoting Amway that way, please ensure you report them to Amway. Same for any other MLM, but especially those who are members of the DSA.