Moderated MLM Crap :(

[Joecool]

Except of course the most conservative estimate given was $25 profit per head and 5000 IBOs. But hey, you haven't let facts get in the way before, I don't expect you to start now.

Which is still 125,000 and would cover the annual income of 5 diamonds. And this is just one function and one profit center. What about the standing orders and voicemails and other functions? You still cannot account for where all the money goes. For all we know, the profits on a function is more like $80 per head. That would be well within reason, given that much of the labor is free (IBOs do the ushering, etc). And you still obfuscate the fact that the diamonds still own the AMO and get the corporate profits which could still be in the millions. If you have so much information at your disposal, why don't you do as Newton Trino advises and shine some light on all this? Maybe the critics will go away? Rather you spin doctor the issues and change the direction of the debate. I'm not sure if you're confused or dishonest, but more likely both.



I was at one time, an IBO in WWDB. I see no reason to believe that any AMO, WWDB, Network 21 or BWW for example, are more "pure" and ethical than any other. That being said, one of the major functions we had each year, and still occurs is one called Dream Night.

In this Dream Night function, with the backdrop music "I wanna be rich", we were shown yachts, jetskis, fleets of Porsches, Mercedez Benz, etc, mansions. The diamonds had designer suits and big pieces of jewelry. Go diamond and all this can be yours. Diamonds pay for everything in cash. One diamond said people who make loans are stupid. Ironically, that diamond ended up filing for bankruptcy in 2007.

We know that triple diamond Greg Duncan had an income of about half a million from Amway and half a million from tools and other sources. A million bucks a year. Nice income, but still not enough to sustain the lifestyle these diamonds were portraying from stage. And if Greg Duncan was a triple diamond, then it's likely that those below triple diamond make less money.

It's a scam. Put on a show to get people thinking they can achieve the same lifestyle when clearly, it's a nearly impossible task. In fact WWDB has fewer diamonds now than they had a dozen years ago. The only new ones are coming from foreign countries where the residents haven't been saturated with the notion that Amway and AMOs are a scam.

 

[icerat]

Which is still 125,000 and would cover the annual income of 5 diamonds.

I'll assume you dropped a zero and meant 1,250,000. As per the earlier link, average income for Founders Diamond and above is $609,541, so your math needs some serious work.

And this is just one function and one profit center. What about the standing orders and voicemails and other functions? You still cannot account for where all the money goes.

So let me get this straight - your saying that since I don't know all the various expenses of a private company, we should assume there are none?

Really?

For all we know, the profits on a function is more like $80 per head.

So I give you the actual costs ($75 - $100/person), sourced from the largest of the companies that supply these types of functions, and you just dismiss it and make up some figure "for all we know" instead?

That would be well within reason, given that much of the labor is free (IBOs do the ushering, etc).

Not at any seminar I've been too. There's at least a dozen non-IBO staff. You've been told this many times. You ignore it and keep stating stuff that's not true. Might have been true with whoever you were involved with (not Network 21) whenever you were involved (more than a decade ago), but it's absolutely not true for the group I work(ed) with.

And you still obfuscate the fact that the diamonds still own the AMO and get the corporate profits which could still be in the millions.

No, you obfuscate and again state falsehoods. Network 21 is owned by the Dornans, not "the diamonds". They supply products and services to literally hundreds of Diamonds, many of whom are not in their Amway downline, and many of whom are in their Amway downline but in such depth they earn little or no money from Amway for them.

Are the Dornans N21 corporate profits in the millions? Probably, no idea. It's a company with over 300 staff operating in more than 30 countries. Most companies that size are probably making millions for their owners.

Are you a communist by any chance? You have a problem with people forming companies and profiting from it?

If you have so much information at your disposal, why don't you do as Newton Trino advises and shine some light on all this?

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

I've provided average "system" income
I've provided average Amway income
I've provided costs per head for seminars
I've provided lists of known expenses

You just keep dismissing it, making **** up and then asking "why don't you ... shine some light on all this?"

Really?

I was at one time, an IBO in WWDB. I see no reason to believe that any AMO, WWDB, Network 21 or BWW for example, are more "pure" and ethical than any other. That being said, one of the major functions we had each year, and still occurs is one called Dream Night.

You keep dismissing other people's experiences as being false, that makes it pretty easy to have "no reason to believe" anythings any different, doesn't it?

You then of course go on to describe a type of function that doesn't even exist in network 21, and of a type I've never experienced.

We know that triple diamond Greg Duncan had an income of about half a million from Amway and half a million from tools and other sources. A million bucks a year. Nice income, but still not enough to sustain the lifestyle these diamonds were portraying from stage. And if Greg Duncan was a triple diamond, then it's likely that those below triple diamond make less money.

You (a) conveniently forget his XS income (b) what lifestyle are you claiming can't be had on a million bucks a year income?

In fact WWDB has fewer diamonds now than they had a dozen years ago.

So you're not talking about Amway, you're just talking about one group within one country Amway operates in? A group that's gotten smaller partially because a number of Diamonds left them because they didn't like the way they operated?

The only new ones are coming from foreign countries where the residents haven't been saturated with the notion that Amway and AMOs are a scam.

But now you're back to talking about Amway again, not WWDB, are you not? Make up your mind. Amway North America recognizes new North American Diamonds and above every single year. Many of them were even born in America!

 

[Joecool]

I'll assume you dropped a zero and meant 1,250,000. As per the earlier link, average income for Founders Diamond and above is $609,541, so your math needs some serious work.

I was refering to your lowball estimate of profits. $25 per head times 5000. It's your reading comprehension, not my math that needs "serious" work.

So I give you the actual costs ($75 - $100/person), sourced from the largest of the companies that supply these types of functions, and you just dismiss it and make up some figure "for all we know" instead?

It's not actual costs. It's what they are saying is the actual cost. Open the books.

your saying

The correct way to use this is "you're", for you are. Again, basic literacy skills are lacking. Is it my imagination or should many IBOs invest in "hooked on phonics instead of Amway?

Not at any seminar I've been too. There's at least a dozen non-IBO staff. You've been told this many times. You ignore it and keep stating stuff that's not true. Might have been true with whoever you were involved with (not Network 21) whenever you were involved (more than a decade ago), but it's absolutely not true for the group I work(ed) with.

It was true of the functions I attended, and nothing suggests that WWDB has changed, especially since IBOs spout the same garbage now that they did in the 1990's.

You keep dismissing other people's experiences as being false

Why not? You keep dimissing my experience as false and you weren't even there.

You (a) conveniently forget his XS income (b) what lifestyle are you claiming can't be had on a million bucks a year income?

Obviously since he could not pay his taxes for several years, could not make his mortgage payments (thus he lied about paying cash for everything) and had credit card debt, that million wasn't going very far. And this was a triple diamond. I hate to think about the financial condition of a plain old non founders diamond.

 

[icerat]

I was refering to your lowball estimate of profits. $25 per head times 5000. It's your reading comprehension, not my math that needs "serious" work.

You said -

Which is still 125,000 and would cover the annual income of 5 diamonds.

$25*5000=$125,000
Annual Diamond income * 5=$609,541*5=$3,047,705

So your math is fine, but you're claiming $125,000 covers $3,047,705?

You're right, it's not a math problem that needs serious work.

It's not actual costs. It's what they are saying is the actual cost. Open the books.

Ahh well, yes of course. Any old thing claimed on any old blog is accepted if it fits your world view. Statistics provided by a company that don't support your view? They must be lying.

Tell you what. You get Shorts and Lorenzes audited accounts, I'll see what I can do with N21.

The correct way to use this is "you're", for you are. Again, basic literacy skills are lacking. Is it my imagination or should many IBOs invest in "hooked on phonics instead of Amway?

I fully admit that my spelling and punctuation has plummeted in accuracy after more than a decade living in a non-english speaking country. Mea culpa. The fact you're resorting to such trivialities says much about the strength of your argument.

It was true of the functions I attended, and nothing suggests that WWDB has changed, especially since IBOs spout the same garbage now that they did in the 1990's.

I won't even attempt to point out the number of logical fallacies in this. Needless to say, the discussion, and your claims, have been about Amway in general, not one particular group which makes up only a few percentage of Amway.

Why not? You keep dimissing my experience as false and you weren't even there.

Care to point out where I've dismissed your experience as false?

Obviously since he could not pay his taxes for several years, could not make his mortgage payments (thus he lied about paying cash for everything) and had credit card debt, that million wasn't going very far. And this was a triple diamond. I hate to think about the financial condition of a plain old non founders diamond.

more non sequiturs. Didn't pay is not the same as couldn't pay. I didn't pay my tax bills for a couple of years because I believed them to be wrong (excessively so). The tax department claimed otherwise. I won.

Neither you or I have any real idea why Greg Duncan filed for chapter 11. Note of course the same documents you're referring to show this guy had debts of $8.4 million - but assets of $63 million.

Funny how you're using court documents that show a guy who built up assets of over $63 million primarily as a result of his involvement with Amway as an example when you're simultaneously claiming it's a scam where you can't make money ....

If I recall correctly numerous other people who have been involved with WWDB have challenged your claim that Greg Duncan claimed to pay cash for everything. I've no idea whether he did or not. Even if he did, when do you claim he said it? Maybe he changed his mind? Maybe you mixed up with his brother Brad?

Most sensible business people understand that debt can be a very useful tool, used properly. (alas seems to be a large number of politicans in the US who seem to have forgotten that too, but that's for another thread. )

Used improperly of course it can get you in a world of trouble.

 

[Joecool]

You said -
$25*5000=$125,000
Annual Diamond income * 5=$609,541*5=$3,047,705
So your math is fine, but you're claiming $125,000 covers $3,047,705?
You're right, it's not a math problem that needs serious work.

We were discussing tools income. You said diamonds make about $23,000 annually. Maybe for Christmas, I'll buy you some doctor Seuss books to spruce up your skills.

Ahh well, yes of course. Any old thing claimed on any old blog is accepted if it fits your world view. Statistics provided by a company that don't support your view? They must be lying.

Based on the FACT that many tool kingpins, prior to the internet, claimed NO PROFITS were made on tools, suggesting they may be lying is not entirely out of the question.

I won't even attempt to point out the number of logical fallacies in this. Needless to say, the discussion, and your claims, have been about Amway in general, not one particular group which makes up only a few percentage of Amway.

My observation, and likely the observation of many here, is that there are no pure and ethical tool companies. It is far more likely and believable that the tools companies are more alike than not. They are all basically offshoots from Yager. While there may be some variances, their motive is profit. And the profit comes from a captive audience. A serious conflict of interest.

more non sequiturs. Didn't pay is not the same as couldn't pay. I didn't pay my tax bills for a couple of years because I believed them to be wrong (excessively so). The tax department claimed otherwise. I won.

Neither you or I have any real idea why Greg Duncan filed for chapter 11. Note of course the same documents you're referring to show this guy had debts of $8.4 million - but assets of $63 million.

Funny how you're using court documents that show a guy who built up assets of over $63 million primarily as a result of his involvement with Amway as an example when you're simultaneously claiming it's a scam where you can't make money ....

If I recall correctly numerous other people who have been involved with WWDB have challenged your claim that Greg Duncan claimed to pay cash for everything. I've no idea whether he did or not. Even if he did, when do you claim he said it? Maybe he changed his mind? Maybe you mixed up with his brother Brad?

Let's also note that Mr Duncan was in chapter 7 and requested a million dollar loan from Amway. He listed assets of 63 million. Much from his XS company and his homes that had zero equity. If I had a 5 milllion dollar home but owed 6 million on it, I can "list" 5 million in assets. A lot of good that would do me when it was time to pay the property taxes huh?

Greg Duncan not only said diamonds pay cash, he specifically said "stupid comes to mind" when people took out loans of any kind. He said loans are stupid. Only broke people need loans. Diamonds pay cash, even for homes. Go look at the Expeditions of Truth blog. Shaun says Greg Duncan still teaches. Shaun talks about buying his future home in cash. I wonder where he learned that gem of wisdom?

At the functions I attended and witnessed, a portion of what was shown was Greg Duncan's mansion, his jet skis, boats, sports cars, a jet and some other trappings. He said all cash. Duncan even told a heartfelt story about how one day his daughter would get married and he would sit down with his son in law and ask what his best (job) offer was. He would then double that offer and have his son in law work for him. I remember some folks crying over that story, but looking back, it was probably BS like much of what he taught the group.

Our sponsor even said Greg was so smart that he had to "dumb down" his speeches so the rank and file IBOs could understand what Greg was saying.

I'm not making this stuff up. I saw it. I saw the damage it caused to people's lives which is why I haven't given up advocating against this oppportunity and the tool kingpins.

Did I mention the speech by another WWDB diamond (not Duncan) who taught the audience how long you can put off paying your mortgage without facing foreclosure? This was all designed so you could attend functions and buy more standing orders.

You Icerat do more damage to people advocating for Amway, an opportunity where failure is almost assured, than I do for advocating against it. The FACT of the matter is that most people would be better off financially sitting at home sipping a beer and watching the Simpsons than they would be participating in Amway and the tool systems.

Even if there were some ethical groups (but I doubt it), there's enough bad ones to justify shutting down the entire empire.

 

[marplots]

Doesn't matter how smart someone is if they don't have correct information.

Well, let's look at the information provided by Amway on their website, specifically, http://www.amway.com/en/ResourceCen...n--AmwayGlobalBusinessOpportunityBrochure.pdf

This is their brochure. Check out page 11, where you will find this interesting collection of facts.

Gold level earns an average of $12,303.00
About .5% of IBOs achieve this level or higher in North America. (Note, this is gross income, not net.)

So, out of 1000 IBOs, 5 will make this much or more. Of those five, four will average less than $41,000 a year -- not counting expenses.

Does this really sound like something you want to get involved in? Instead of spending 5 to 10 years building an Amway business, how about getting a college degree in a field with some demand?

I call foul. I claim Amway is full of misfits, fools and those who are unable to evaluate a business opportunity. These are not people I want to work with.

Pharmacy degree -- 5 years -- $75,000 starting wage.

 

[Mycroft]

BSM income stats were supplied by the Network 21 North America office. Network 21 is the largest global company offering BSM to Amway business owners.
Amway income stats were supplied by Amway North America.

The Amway data is supplied to all IBOs, the N21 data I obtained because in my efforts researching the field I've developed a friendship with one of the executives of the company (and no - again - neither he nor they pay me). It normally would not be provided to a lowly rank and file IBO like me

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. What I was asking was to be able to verify the information and also to check the relationship between income earned through sales and income earned through "tools".

Note that, as I said earlier, promoting the ability to earn income from the BSM companies to prospects could be considered an illegal inducement, so these companies, and Amway, have good reason not to openly provide this information.

Isn't that the same as saying that the sale of "BSM" is a side business, and therefore income earned from it can't really be compared to income from Amway sales?

I'm not aware of any diamonds that regularly travel with their families first class to multiple functions a month.

What he's saying is if the tool income is spun off into a separate business, then he can disguise his real income from tool sales and just write himself a compensation package that includes a modest income, but huge perks. The company can be paying for his car, health care, travel, plus be contributing huge amounts to a retirement plan, as well as accumulating assets that can be liquidated later.

 

[icerat]

Well, lets look at the information provided by Amway on their website, specifically, http://www.amway.com/en/ResourceCen...n--AmwayGlobalBusinessOpportunityBrochure.pdf

This is their brochure. Check out page 11, where you will find this interesting collection of facts.

Gold level earns an average of $12,303.00
About .5% of IBOs achieve this level or higher in North America. (Note, this is gross income, not net.)

So, out of 1000 IBOs, 5 will make this much or more. Of those five, four will average less than $41,000 a year -- not counting expenses.

Does this really sound like something you want to get involved in? Instead of spending 5 to 10 years building an Amway business, how about getting a college degree in a field with some demand?

Have you got any evidence at all to suggest that these incomes relate in any way to people who have spent 5 to 10 years building an Amway business? Or is this just an assumption? "gold level" means they've done 3 months of qualification sales volume on their way to platinum. Founders Platinum is when they've done at least that volume 12 out of 12. So you've picked a level which is, by definition, new at that volume level. Given income is based on volume, not hours put in, thats not really a representative figure.

In any case, how do you reconcile your assumption with the fact that half of people who join Amway do not renew their membership (confirmable in various places, including the TEAM vs Quixtar case in California), and are thus spending somewhere less than 1 year building an Amway business, let along 5 to 10 years.

I happen to have several degrees. Many of the most successful Amway business owners have university educations. As building an Amway business is part-time, many continue in their careers. One of the people who helped me start with Amway is a Founders Emerald (average income $142,181/yr) and also a successful Veterinary consultant. He had two practices but sold them as his Amway business allowed him to cut back on his hours to spend more time with his family. This fellow is also a Founders Emerald, and has a successful career with NASA. This couple were Purdue graduates, working in aerospace and speech pathology, when they were introduced to the Amway business. They now have one of the world's largest Amway businesses. This guy was studying for his PhD when he was introduced to Amway. He completed his PhD and built Europe's largest Amway business. This fellow was an air force flight surgeon who later headed a major sleep research unit. When it's funding was cut he kept it open - funded through his Amway business, which he'd built to Diamond in the little spare time he had. This guy and his brother owned a multimillion dollar software company and his wife was a successful lawyer and on the Board of Directors of one of Australia's largest companies. I know a number of these people personally, and many others. They are by no means "misfits and fools".

I call foul. I claim Amway is full of misfits, fools and those who are unable to evaluate a business opportunity. These are not people I want to work with.

My experience is very different. My sponsor was a civil engineer and he and his wife were both international athletes. They've retired from their Amway business, which continues to grow around the world, and have started another successful business. Their sponsor a Vet and successful business owner and wife a teacher, both continue in those professions as consultants an pick and choose their clients. His sponsor were a farmer and a teacher. They continue to use their expertise in those fields as consultants. There sponsors was an engineer and a house wife. Their sponsor was a business owner, and earlier an executive in a multimillion dollar international company. His sponsors were engineers. Their sponsors engineers.

These are those you call "misfits and fools".

Pharmacy degree -- 5 years -- $75,000 starting wage.

What percentage of people that want to become pharmacists successfully get admitted to course, complete the course, and get that starting wage?

What's their debt levels and how many hours have the put in before they reach that starting wage?

 

[icerat]

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. What I was asking was to be able to verify the information and also to check the relationship between income earned through sales and income earned through "tools".

An impossible task. Both is obviously private information. The first comes from Amway, and the second comes from any one of dozens and dozens of companies.

Isn't that the same as saying that the sale of "BSM" is a side business, and therefore income earned from it can't really be compared to income from Amway sales?

It's "amway critics" who constantly raise the point. Assuming they're offering products and services the purchasers consider value for money I personally don't care how much they make from what.

What he's saying is if the tool income is spun off into a separate business, then he can disguise his real income from tool sales and just write himself a compensation package that includes a modest income, but huge perks. The company can be paying for his car, health care, travel, plus be contributing huge amounts to a retirement plan, as well as accumulating assets that can be liquidated later.

I don't think that's what he's saying, but sure, of course. Same thing with the Amway business. All smart business owners minimize their taxable income through various structures. Most large Amway businesses are corporations and similar.

Joecool though is making various claims that are false, like claiming that N21 is owned by all the diamonds that affiliate with it and thus they share in it's profits, when the fact is it's owned by one couple. (well, probably owned by other legal structures these days!)

There is no doubt that some high Amway achievers make more from their "side motivational businesses" than from Amway. Indeed my contact within Network 21 confirmed it occurs, even within N21, but it is rare and generally in unusual circumstances, such as when the person has expanded internationally in to a country where local laws don't allow non-residents to own or earn income from businesses there. They thus make no money from Amway in those countries apart from contributing to some international incentive bonuses. Network 21 still pays them in their home countries to travel to those countries and train people. In that situation they're making very little from their Amway business and a lot from Network 21.

They're getting paid to share their expertise. I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

[Joecool]

Have you got any evidence at all to suggest that these incomes relate in any way to people who have spent 5 to 10 years building an Amway business? Or is this just an assumption? "gold level" means they've done 3 months of qualification sales volume on their way to platinum. Founders Platinum is when they've done at least that volume 12 out of 12. So you've picked a level which is, by definition, new at that volume level. Given income is based on volume, not hours put in, thats not really a representative figure.

Why doesn't Amway explain this? Maybe they have a good reason.....

My experience is very different. My sponsor was a civil engineer and he and his wife were both international athletes.

It shows that even educated professional people can be susceptible to cults.

They are not misfits but what about the millions who tried hard and failed? The reason why the term misfits was used, I believe, is because what you have are many who seek some shortcut to retirement/wealth. I too got fooled but quickly wised up. Many are not so lucky. My sponsor was a physician and now, 18 years later he is still chasing a dream that will never materialize. He sponsored over 100 people and held the platinum title for a while but his business is now shrunken to, last I heard under 2500 PV. How much money can you lose in those 18 years?

What percentage of people that want to become pharmacists successfully get admitted to course, complete the course, and get that starting wage?

Based on your reasoning, 100% of those who do the work, apply what is taught, and seek employment in the right places.

 

[icerat]

Why doesn't Amway explain this? Maybe they have a good reason.....

They do explain all of these things. It's in the Business Reference Guide.

It shows that even educated professional people can be susceptible to cults.

Ahh yes, your normal old tautological standby. There's only idiots in Amway because, as far as your concerned, if they're doing Amway they must be an idiot, QED.

They are not misfits but what about the millions who tried hard and failed?

Please provide some evidence of the existence of these "millions who tried hard and failed". In particular I'd like evidence they tried hard, and that they failed to achieve whatever goal it was they set.

My sponsor was a physician and now, 18 years later he is still chasing a dream that will never materialize. He sponsored over 100 people and held the platinum title for a while but his business is now shrunken to, last I heard under 2500 PV. How much money can you lose in those 18 years?

I'll apply the "critics standard" - please provide copies of his audited accounts to prove that "what you heard" (really reliable that) is true.

Was it you who claimed some Emerald had fallen out of qualification and was barely platinum, when the same month he was actually being recognized as a new Diamond?

Based on your reasoning, 100% of those who do the work, apply what is taught, and seek employment in the right places.

?

 

[Joecool]

I don't think that's what he's saying, but sure, of course. Same thing with the Amway business. All smart business owners minimize their taxable income through various structures. Most large Amway businesses are corporations and similar.

Joecool though is making various claims that are false, like claiming that N21 is owned by all the diamonds that affiliate with it and thus they share in it's profits, when the fact is it's owned by one couple. (well, probably owned by other legal structures these days!)

I never made any such specific claims. It is certainly plausible that some diamonds who own the tool companies can do exactly what Mycroft was suggesting. And yes, these diamonds who incorporate their businesses can hide or shelter some of their income under the umbrella of the corporation. I would be surprised if they didn't.

But what many diamonds show and tell their groups is not what is reality. There are too many secrets about the tools business. In my opinion, the tools business should be managed by Amway and the diamonds given transparent stipends from the profits. I would even be okay with diamonds earning benefits such as health insurance from the corporation. It is the deception and lies used by the diamonds to promote the tools that I am against. It is a conflict of interest, and as a side note, the tools are ineffective anyway. By saying only those who learn and apply everthing exactly is like saying everyone learns and applies the pharmacy knowledge will earn the $75,000 after 5 years.

 

[Joecool]

Please provide some evidence of the existence of these "millions who tried hard and failed". In particular I'd like evidence they tried hard, and that they failed to achieve whatever goal it was they set.

Deductive reasoning.

Would it be reasonable to suggest that at least 1 in 10 IBOs tried hard?

There have been tens of millions who went through the Amway business over the years. Therefore reasonable to suggest that millions put in an earnest effort. Since the "plan" shown to most prospects is 6-4-2 or whatever version, results in diamond at the end, it can be reasonable to think that most recruits see diamond as the end goal, at least when first signing up.

During my tenure as IBO, I had a leg in depth who signed up to go diamond, switched to small business (no funcitons) and then a month or two later, quit because the distribution process (call in and pick up) was not reliable enough. I consider that a failure. I consider my sponsor a failure at this point. I consider my experience a failure. Luckily I was smart enough to get out before suffering big financial losses.

If within my own group and crossline, I saw hundreds of failures, and my experience was less than a full year, Amway overall, 50+ years, many many groups, it is very reasonable to deduct that millions failed. Do you have trouble seeing this?

As Newtwon Trino said, you come from Bizarro world, which is the only explanation I can offer about your viewpoint on this.

 

[icerat]

I never made any such specific claims.

Yes you did. In response to my post on how N21 income/expenses and profit sharing you said -

And you still obfuscate the fact that the diamonds still own the AMO and get the corporate profits which could still be in the millions.

It is certainly plausible that some diamonds who own the tool companies can do exactly what Mycroft was suggesting. And yes, these diamonds who incorporate their businesses can hide or shelter some of their income under the umbrella of the corporation. I would be surprised if they didn't.

So would I. It's normal business practice to try to minimize taxable income. What's your point?

But what many diamonds show and tell their groups is not what is reality.

Such as? (with supporting evidence please)

There are too many secrets about the tools business. In my opinion, the tools business should be managed by Amway and the diamonds given transparent stipends from the profits.

So Amway, a supposed bastion and promoter of free enterprise, should monopolise the market and minimize income opportunities for their "independent business owners"?

I would even be okay with diamonds earning benefits such as health insurance from the corporation.

I think Amway did offer this at one stage. No idea if they still do. If you offer too much though, tax departments start to decide their employees rather than independent contractors, which completely changes the situation for both parties.

It is the deception and lies used by the diamonds to promote the tools that I am against.

I'm against that too. I've never experienced it though. By saying "the diamonds" you are implying (a) they all do this (all 5000+ of them) and (b) that I'm lying when I say I haven't experienced deception and lies from any Diamonds I've associated with.

It is a conflict of interest

How is it any more of a conflict of interest than promoting Amway products to downline?

and as a side note, the tools are ineffective anyway.

That's like saying a hammer or a book is ineffective. They don't do much by themselves.

By saying only those who learn and apply everthing exactly is like saying everyone learns and applies the pharmacy knowledge will earn the $75,000 after 5 years.

Isn't that pretty much the case? Only those people who do everything necessary to (a) get admitted to a pharmacy degree and (b) pass all the necessary exams etc will make that kind of money?

Why this belief that simply registering with Amway is promoted as the path to riches? And that simply registering, doing nothing, and making no money, means you're an "amway failure"?

Isn't what's promoted that, to make say Diamond level, that you have to work your 40 hour job, and on top of that, every single week, without missing a week, for at least two years and probably up to 5 years, put in another 10 to 20 hours on another project where, by it's very nature as a sales type business, 80% of people will be "rejecting" what you offer?

Does that sound easy to you? Doesn't sound easy to me. That's one reason why I haven't done it!

 

[marplots]

Have you got any evidence at all to suggest that these incomes relate in any way to people who have spent 5 to 10 years building an Amway business? Or is this just an assumption? "gold level" means they've done 3 months of qualification sales volume on their way to platinum. Founders Platinum is when they've done at least that volume 12 out of 12. So you've picked a level which is, by definition, new at that volume level. Given income is based on volume, not hours put in, thats not really a representative figure.

In any case, how do you reconcile your assumption with the fact that half of people who join Amway do not renew their membership (confirmable in various places, including the TEAM vs Quixtar case in California), and are thus spending somewhere less than 1 year building an Amway business, let along 5 to 10 years.

It doesn't matter how you spin the numbers. With only .5% making even $12,000 a year average or more, that's a huge number that isn't. 995 out of a thousand.

Even if every one of those 995 is a new member and will drop out... even then... to keep the mill rolling, you have to recruit more who will drop out. And you know this going in. That's what makes it immoral. That's what makes it evil.

Finally, think about the churn rate needed to support the few who make any money at all (gross remember, not net). It's predatory.

Tell me, when a thousand people sign up, does it bother anyone that so many will buy the dream and then wake up poorer someday? What sort of vampire would participate in such a thing?

Pg. 11 in their brochure. Good reading. http://www.amway.com/en/ResourceCen...n--AmwayGlobalBusinessOpportunityBrochure.pdf

 

[Joecool]

So Amway, a supposed bastion and promoter of free enterprise, should monopolise the market and minimize income opportunities for their "independent business owners"?

Free enterprise, yet you cannot advertise without permission, you can't promote your products or oportunity online, and you can't seel to retailers. You are limited to person to person contact. For this reason, I don't see Amway as free enterprise.

I'm against that too. I've never experienced it though. By saying "the diamonds" you are implying (a) they all do this (all 5000+ of them) and (b) that I'm lying when I say I haven't experienced deception and lies from any Diamonds I've associated with.

I never said all diamonds. My reference point is my experience. It's semantics. When you say critic's point of view, do you mean every single critic?

How is it any more of a conflict of interest than promoting Amway products to downline?

Because the downline at least earns something for moving Amway products, provided they meet the minimum PV bracket. Unless you reach platinum of whatever qualifying level, an IBO could puchase thousands of cds and attend thousands of functions and not get a cent in compensation. Also there is the issue of (some) upline telling people that they cannot possibly succeed without these tools.

That's like saying a hammer or a book is ineffective. They don't do much by themselves.

It's not the same. 99.99% of hammers can pound nails into wood. By contrast, 99.99% of IBOs, for whatever reason, do not make a net profit.

Isn't that pretty much the case? Only those people who do everything necessary to (a) get admitted to a pharmacy degree and (b) pass all the necessary exams etc will make that kind of money?

Why this belief that simply registering with Amway is promoted as the path to riches? And that simply registering, doing nothing, and making no money, means you're an "amway failure"?

Isn't what's promoted that, to make say Diamond level, that you have to work your 40 hour job, and on top of that, every single week, without missing a week, for at least two years and probably up to 5 years, put in another 10 to 20 hours on another project where, by it's very nature as a sales type business, 80% of people will be "rejecting" what you offer?

You can't control what is "necessary" is why most people fail. Not failure to try to do what is needed. You can't sponsor people without their consent, or show the plan to 10 people a month when the name Amway turns them off. It's hard to sell a $2.45 product for $7.00 when Walmart sells it for $2.45.

If it were simply working hard, much more than a fraction of 1% would be moving up the ranks consistently.

You know this but for some reason you are in denial.

 

[icerat]

Deductive reasoning.

Would it be reasonable to suggest that at least 1 in 10 IBOs tried hard?

For the time necessary to develop a significant business? No, that wouldn't be reasonable at all.

Remember, less than 1.3 in 10 even sponsor one person who generates volume. Even you did more than that

There have been tens of millions who went through the Amway business over the years. Therefore reasonable to suggest that millions put in an earnest effort.

Nope, non sequitur

Since the "plan" shown to most prospects is 6-4-2 or whatever version, results in diamond at the end, it can be reasonable to think that most recruits see diamond as the end goal, at least when first signing up.

Industry surveys show otherwise. An Amway Japan survey, published in their annual report a few years ago, reported that 87% of distributors there joined primarily to get products at distributor pricing. In my own personal situation, when I was actively showing the plan, at the followup stage I asked people what their income goal was. Not a single one ever picked Diamond income. None.[/quote]

Do you have any data at all to support your assumption?

During my tenure as IBO, I had a leg in depth who signed up to go diamond, switched to small business (no funcitons) and then a month or two later, quit because the distribution process (call in and pick up) was not reliable enough. I consider that a failure.

What does he consider?

I consider my sponsor a failure at this point.

What gives you the right to judge that better than him? What were his goals? Have his goals changed? What is actually achieved? (not just "have you heard")

I consider my experience a failure.

I don't think anyone has suggested that everyone who joins Amway, even those who work hard, succeed.

You're claim though is that there are millions who have worked hard and failed. So far your supporting "evidence" is what you "heard" about your sponsor. Some downline who went and did something else, and yourself.

Not much of a sample size I'm afraid.

If within my own group and crossline, I saw hundreds of failures

What were their goals? How did you know?
How much time and effort did the put in to their business? How did you know?
How well did they follow advice? How do you know?

I know plenty of people who tried Amway and "failed" too

I don't know any that actually did was recommended to reach their goals and failed to do so.

and my experience was less than a full year,

Huh? It takes, on average, a little less than 10 years from date of registration before people reach Diamond, what you consider "success". It's generally considered that the minimum time needed, with significant focus and hard work, is at least two years.

You didn't even try for one year, so how can you judge that a failure?

Amway overall, 50+ years, many many groups, it is very reasonable to deduct that millions failed. Do you have trouble seeing this?

The data doesn't support the claim, indeed to the contrary. The Amway Japan survey indicates the major reason people join is to get products at distributor pricing. Various submissions to the FTC from other direct sales/mlm companies report similar statistics. Successfully placing an order means they succeeded at this.

Simply to support the idea that the majority of people who join Amway fail to reach their primary goal, you need to provide some evidence that these people have placed orders with Amway, at distributor pricing, and failed to receive them.

Do you have any evidence to support this?

 

[icerat]

Free enterprise, yet you cannot advertise without permission, you can't promote your products or oportunity online, and you can't seel to retailers. You are limited to person to person contact. For this reason, I don't see Amway as free enterprise.

It's a sliding scale, and there are restrictions, yes (though many you mention aren't true, or vary from country to country)

I never said all diamonds. My reference point is my experience.

We were talking about Network 21 Diamonds, and you explictly said "the diamonds", plural, in reference to them.

What is your experience with Network 21 Diamonds?

It's semantics. When you say critic's point of view, do you mean every single critic?

Depends on context. Semantics matter and most times I try to get it right. I probably fail at times.

Because the downline at least earns something for moving Amway products, provided they meet the minimum PV bracket. Unless you reach platinum of whatever qualifying level, an IBO could puchase thousands of cds and attend thousands of functions and not get a cent in compensation.

Tool rebate scales are based on volume, and there is a minimum volume required to earn them, ie a "minimum PV bracket", no matter what your "pin level". Those initial volume levels are set such that they equate to what is normal for a gold or platinum business. For example, in N21, at around 500 CDs in a month. I have ZERO doubt that if someone had a legitimate reason for purchasing that many CDs, and they were not at gold or platinum level, a volume discount could be negotiated.

Also there is the issue of (some) upline telling people that they cannot possibly succeed without these tools.

explictly against amway's rules. If you here someone saying that, report them to Amway.

It's not the same. 99.99% of hammers can pound nails into wood. By contrast, 99.99% of IBOs, for whatever reason, do not make a net profit.

And that's supposed to be the same? 99.99% if hammers that are lying around and not picked up do not pound nails into wood. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say 100%!

You can't control what is "necessary" is why most people fail. Not failure to try to do what is needed.

What?

You can't sponsor people without their consent, or show the plan to 10 people a month when the name Amway turns them off.

Yet plenty of people show plenty of plans and sponsor plenty of people. You yourself claim millions join Amway, but now you're saying the problem is it's too hard to get people to join?

It's hard to sell a $2.45 product for $7.00 when Walmart sells it for $2.45.

Walmart doesn't sell Amway products.

If it were simply working hard, much more than a fraction of 1% would be moving up the ranks consistently.

I never said it was "simply working hard". You have to do the right things as well, which requires learning, practice, and experience. And you have to do it for long enough - and fast enough.

You know this but for some reason you are in denial.

How many times in this thread is it now you've made up something and claimed I deny it, when I agree with it?

 

[marplots]

Personal income US, over $100,000 (2009 Census, persons over 15y/o) =

60 out of a thousand

Income over $100,000 Amway (2009 figures) =

1 out of a thousand

Accept the math.

 

[NewtonTrino]

First off it's fantastic to see an amway thread where I am not the only person who has seen the scam upfront. I'm not going to get heavily involved due to how busy I am running my own businesses (not amway) at the moment but I will continue to spew out comments.

First off Icerat tries to continually paint me as someone who is an outsider to this business and who doesn't have a particular connection his "special" organization called network21. The truth is that I am very connected to the business having been involved as a supplier of software too them. In addition I have a close relative who has been in the business for 30+ years. I have diamonds cell phone numbers in my iphone contact list. The math for tools works the same way no matter which organization you are in. The basically all have similar CD's with similar pricing, seminars etc etc. If he wants to dispute pricing he's welcome too but I've done the research and N21 prices very similarly to other amway organizations.

Some details of the tools compensation scheme do differ in different organizations but the profits are basically the same because the pricing and costs are very similar. I'm very familiar with the costs associated with things like CD replication, mastering, audio recording, creation of music, printing etc etc as I deal with those in the software business that I run. I know what the overhead levels are required to be, I know how amway functions are run and I've seen the profit breakdown charts for both the traditional (which is basically a fixed commision per level difference) and the volume based tool rebates. I've seen very specific numbers for certain large amway businesses as well. This isn't second hand, this is them running their businesses on my software and me having complete access to the data. Direct first hand knowledge.

Tool are tremendously profitable and are definitely what makes the scam work. If anyone besides Icerat wants to discuss this in more detail I'll show you some of the math. The bottom line is that the profit distribution is inverted compared to how a regular amway product is supposed to work. The higher up the chain you go on tools the more profit per unit they make. Normally the profit should be concentratee at the distributors closest to the customer as the are doing the work of selling that particular product. With tools the lowest level distributor pays retail, effectively making them the customer for the high level distributors. The higher you go up the chain the more reason they have to just want to increase the size of their organization so they have more customers buying tools. Now icerat is going to dispute this and trot out some charts show how the money is supposedly split. Unfortunately it's missing where most of the money goes. This chart is simply wishful thinking.

Now, for those onlookers here is a question. If Icerat isn't part of the successful high level cadre of kingpin distributors how can he even claim to be in a position to know this isn't a scam? Unless he's literally seen the books of his upline he has absolutely no way to determine whether they are lying to him about tool profits. If he was to deduce they were lying based on math then maybe he would have an argument. However, the math never adds up for him.

So remember folks, he's just one of those caught in the scam. There is no reason to pay more attention to his opinion about amway than any of the myriad of other people who have failed to do anything but lose money. It's not like he's one of the successful ones who are running the scam. He's just another person who fell for it too hard and really believes it's not a scam. On many occasions we've asked to see real hard numbers from the upper level distributors. Things like filed tax returns etc are never shown.

Anyway with the amount of ex-distributors and other information on the net anyone who falls for this scam pretty much deserves what they get. Of course those overseas may not have access to the information...