How can Dawkins redeem himself?

[RHolmes]

Ladies - things get much better after you're 40. Men hit on you less and you finally stop caring if you bruise their ego by telling them you'd rather pour molten lead up your arse than grant them access to your pudenda.

That said, I got into serveral unpleasant situations and was raped in my 20s, due to naively taking all men at face value. So my advice to younger women is: be polite and friendly, but err on the side of caution.

As for Dawkins, yeah, it'd be good if he could actually talk to Rebecca and try to understand how tiresome* (and sometimes scary) it can be to be subject to unwanted male sexual attention.

*Probably less tiresome for heterosexual women that it was for me. Cue accusations that I am a man-hating lesbian...

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

That's what makes being objectified so much fun! It's best to just admit that you're powerless and pretend to be flattered. Because ring, no ring, boyfriend or no, your job is to be available to men who know nothing about you except that they would like pork you.

But of course, that's not sexist or anything.

And yet again we get a wild jump from being approached by a man to objectification and all sorts of other wild nonsense.

Is there a book on feminism 101 with a few pages missing somewhere?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Which is worse: sexual attention when you sometimes don't want it, or no sexual attention at all when you sometimes do want it?

Unless women are going to start adopting a clear visual indication of their lack of interest in sexual advances and are consistent to a very high degree, I think it's unreasonable to expect men to not use a strategy that sometimes works to get them what they want.

So rather than blaming men for politely going after what they want, why don't women wear, say, purple items of clothing if they're not interested in receiving any sexual advances?

Do the feminists on the forum think they could get their sisters the world over to agree to such a simple measure to make their lives more pleasant?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

.....
So rather than blaming men for politely going after what they want, why don't women wear, say, purple items of clothing if they're not interested in receiving any sexual advances?

Do the feminists on the forum think they could get their sisters the world over to agree to such a simple measure to make their lives more pleasant?

I like this analogy. I wonder if people will get it?

 

[RHolmes]

Which is worse: sexual attention when you sometimes don't want it, or no sexual attention at all when you sometimes do want it?

Unless women are going to start adopting a clear visual indication of their lack of interest in sexual advances and are consistent to a very high degree, I think it's unreasonable to expect men to not use a strategy that sometimes works to get them what they want.

So rather than blaming men for politely going after what they want, why don't women wear, say, purple items of clothing if they're not interested in receiving any sexual advances?

Do the feminists on the forum think they could get their sisters the world over to agree to such a simple measure to make their lives more pleasant?

For the record, I would never have used the molten lead line on a man who was polite. Re: purple - I am told this is to bisexuality what pink is to homosexuality. So could be interesting.

 

[gnome]

Why should women ensure that men don't have to actually think about how, when, and where they're approaching someone? Are "Game on" or "Full Stop" the only available options?

For that matter, if you're in favor of that, why shouldn't men do the same thing? Or is one to assume that men automatically don't mind being hit on, no matter the circumstances?

 

[RHolmes]

"Dear Atheisto,

I know people are teaching your kids that the earth was made in 6 days by Superman, that you are automatically deemed to be immoral and untrustworthy, that your neighbours ostracise you, that plenty of employers will refuse to offer you a job and that you have as much chance of successfully running for political office as Herve Villechaize has of being voted "Most Statuesque Actor in the History of Cinema", but quit your whining, would you?

Only the other day, I heard that a bunch of atheist men were asked to behave towards women with greater social skills than those of an an incontinent skunk. It's true, I tell you! That's oppression, that is."

Touche and quits, anyone ?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

"Dear Atheisto,

I know people are teaching your kids that the earth was made in 6 days by Superman, that you are automatically deemed to be immoral and untrustworthy, that your neighbours ostracise you, that plenty of employers will refuse to offer you a job and that you have as much chance of successfully running for political office as Herve Villechaize has of being voted "Most Statuesque Actor in the History of Cinema", but quit your whining, would you?

Only the other day, I heard that a bunch of atheist men were asked to behave towards women with greater social skills than those of an an incontinent skunk. It's true, I tell you! That's oppression, that is."

Touche and quits, anyone ?

And the fact not everyone agrees the elevator guy was as bad as you claim? What are we to make of that?

 

[gnome]

How about this: People have different opinions about what is polite. It is valid for each to express their opinion and doesn't mean they're trying to force their opinion on everyone else.

In fact the difference between expressing and forcing an opinion could unravel a lot of the debate on both sides.

 

[zooterkin]

I like this analogy. I wonder if people will get it?

Sorry if I'm being dense, but what's it an analogy for? Are you sure it's not simply a suggestion?

 

[bookitty]

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/2011/07/20/is-it-cold-in-here/

I have a bet going with my husband as to which part of this will be singled out. Let's see if I'm right, shall we?

 

[bookitty]

Which is worse: sexual attention when you sometimes don't want it, or no sexual attention at all when you sometimes do want it?

Unless women are going to start adopting a clear visual indication of their lack of interest in sexual advances and are consistent to a very high degree, I think it's unreasonable to expect men to not use a strategy that sometimes works to get them what they want.

So rather than blaming men for politely going after what they want, why don't women wear, say, purple items of clothing if they're not interested in receiving any sexual advances?

Do the feminists on the forum think they could get their sisters the world over to agree to such a simple measure to make their lives more pleasant?

Another crazy idea - How about women don't define themselves by their sexual availability?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sorry if I'm being dense, but what's it an analogy for? Are you sure it's not simply a suggestion?

Think: attempt to change the behavior of a whole class of people. Tell the boys to all behave a certain way or tell the girls to all advertise what they want by wearing a certain thing. Why is one approach better than the other?

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

Another crazy idea - How about women don't define themselves by their sexual availability?

Then I have one question. Do you never feel like casual sex?

I have no experience myself, and it's not an invitation either, but I'm just curious.

Do you think that sex can ever be done just for the fun of it?

And if so, how does a person (male or female) go about "getting it"?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Another crazy idea - How about women don't define themselves by their sexual availability?

Okay, so what's your solution to the problem of men hitting on women when they don't want to be hit on?

 

[bookitty]

Then I have one question. Do you never feel like casual sex?

I have no experience myself, and it's not an invitation either, but I'm just curious.

Do you think that sex can ever be done just for the fun of it?

And if so, how does a person (male or female) go about "getting it"?

What does asking every woman to dress in a way that indicates her sexual availability (or lack thereof) have to do with casual sex?

A woman who is interested in casual sex is perfectly capable of making that known without props. Asking 50% of the population to change their clothing choices so that the other 50% doesn't have to bother with those who are not available for sex, is a fairly disgusting idea.

Casual sex deserves better than that.

 

[Bram Kaandorp]

What does asking every woman to dress in a way that indicates her sexual availability (or lack thereof) have to do with casual sex?

A woman who is interested in casual sex is perfectly capable of making that known without props. Asking 50% of the population to change their clothing choices so that the other 50% doesn't have to bother with those who are not available for sex, is a fairly disgusting idea.

Casual sex deserves better than that.

I'm not suggesting women should dress according to their sex drive (that's basically what was proposed), that was someone else.

I just wanted to know if you are generally opposed to men asking women, or whether you think it is permitted under certain circumstances.

That's all.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

A woman who is interested in casual sex is perfectly capable of making that known without props.

<snip>

How?

 

[bookitty]

Okay, so what's your solution to the problem of men hitting on women when they don't want to be hit on?

Well, for one, you could stop making it the woman's job to stop something that she has no control over.

I would recommend that men introduce themselves by name and then watch to see how the woman reacts. And take it from there. There is no magic "get into a stranger's pants" formula. Only two human beings who are learning about each other in real time. If they both discover something they like, things will progress.

Had EG introduced himself and then said something like "I found your talk very interesting." and left it at that, Watson would have responded like a very tired person who doesn't particularly want to have a conversation. Because that's what she was. And it would have ended there. No harm, no foul.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Well, for one, you could stop making it the woman's job to stop something that she has no control over.

I would recommend that men introduce themselves by name and then watch to see how the woman reacts. And take it from there. There is no magic "get into a stranger's pants" formula. Only two human beings who are learning about each other in real time. If they both discover something they like, things will progress.

Had EG introduced himself and then said something like "I found your talk very interesting." and left it at that, Watson would have responded like a very tired person who doesn't particularly want to have a conversation. Because that's what she was. And it would have ended there. No harm, no foul.

Let's assume EG did want to have sex with Ms. Watson. What was the obvious signal that she was not interested in having sex with him?